Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

Imagine there was a Booster Course Pass-type of DLC, with the stages that were absent from Ultimate, plus a few never-before-seen ones.

Okay.

...now what?

I missed retro talk.

you know me though

At least deserves a Spirit, ffs!

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Imagine there was a Booster Course Pass-type of DLC, with the stages that were absent from Ultimate, plus a few never-before-seen ones.

I would love that.

We got more than enough character DLC, but I miss all the older stages. Regardless of ones being redundant(though they are different, just really similar. Sector Z is much larger than Corneria, but they are basically the same stage design. Planet Zebes on the other hand is a tad different from Brinstar, though they are still similar in concept).

Admittedly I like each version of Battlefield and Final Destination, but where's the Metal Mario Cavern? D:

 

[NintenRob]

Being a Mii Costume is honestly a bit of a double edged sword.

It's great to have the character acknowledged, but you run the risk of the character being considered perfectly fine as a Mii Costume.



To use an example, Takamaru. As a sword user, he may be viewed as, perfectly represented as a Mii. Or potentially Geno for Gunner.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Oh yeah my bad, I meant in how he acknowledged those four as being popular requests.

In that case, I say maybe Dante.

This is mostly speculation, but I have a feeling that Doom Slayer was maybe planned to be part of Kazuya's Mii costume wave as well. Considering how Sora's Mii Wave consisted of only Doom Slayer and two model-rip Splatoon hats, I have a feeling that Doom Lad was taken out of the "fan request" wave (which would've originally been the final wave had Sora not slipped in to make it a 6 fighter pass) and used to give Sora's Mii wave something substantial. Could be totally wrong with that feeling, but it's just a hunch I've got.

Yeah, and there's no doubt that Doom Slayer was a big fan request too. Even if he wasn't part of that particular wave, he was a popular request among the fanbase.

 

[7NATOR]

Which of the four mii costume characters, Lloyd Irving, Dragoborn, Dante, and Shantae; that were specifically acknowledged by Sakurai during Kazuya's presentation video has the highest chance of getting an upgrade to playable status? I know there are other hyper mii costume characters too, but right now I'm just focusing on the ones Sakurai directly brought up info about after their showcase.

Honestly my theory is that in the case of Dragonborn, Dante, and Shantae, since their Mii Costumes are new, I'm kind of thinking that if there are/were negotiations going on for Fighters going into Smash 6, that the fact these 3 show up as Mii Costumes doesn't look like a Good Sign. It's the case of why Negotiate for these costumes and develop them when Negotiating for the character as playable.

Lloyd is Exempt since his Costume is old. So I'm gonna go with Lloyd.

That and on Dante, I actually think that Nero might be the better option to get into Smash, Cause I think how he functions would translate much better with Smash than Dante. I also say this as Someone that prefers playing Dante and Especially Vergil in the actual DMC games, as well as their actual characters (I like Nero too though). Nero however is much more simple and not as overtuned with moves, while still having Unique mechanics of his own with the Exceed and Arm Mechanics

 

[Shinuto]

Honestly my theory is that in the case of Dragonborn, Dante, and Shantae, since their Mii Costumes are new, I'm kind of thinking that if there are/were negotiations going on for Fighters going into Smash 6, that the fact these 3 show up as Mii Costumes doesn't look like a Good Sign. It's the case of why Negotiate for these costumes and develop them when Negotiating for the character as playable.

Lloyd is Exempt since his Costume is old. So I'm gonna go with Lloyd.

That and on Dante, I actually think that Nero might be the better option to get into Smash, Cause I think how he functions would translate much better with Smash than Dante. I also say this as Someone that prefers playing Dante and Especially Vergil in the actual DMC games, as well as their actual characters (I like Nero too though). Nero however is much more simple and not as overtuned with moves, while still having Unique mechanics of his own with the Exceed and Arm Mechanics

Fan demand and popularity, them being mii costumes is a way to still give them some representation at that point in time due to being high demand by fans but various factors didnt make them a priority to be playable in said game.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Sonic doing a Maximum Spider is vastly better than the uncontrollable mess with no impact he was in older games so no, the older style of Final Smashes are actually *ing terrible. Functionality should come first and several of the old final smashes do not work in that regard, there's a damn good reason why they got changed and thank * they were.

Smash is objectively a fighting game. There is no argument to be had about this.

"Objectively" maybe in the same Mario Party or Arena Fighters are sure.

Also yeah, Old Super Sonic was uncontrollable and jank but New Super Sonic in just completely weak and ineffective. Can't even kill until 120% or something. Where is the functionality in that? Especially even in Ultimate, Final Smashees still aren't viable.

If some of them didn't work, why not improve them instead of giving cheaply giving everyone the same final smash. All now we have are neutered, lamer Final Smashes for the causals that still unviable for competitive. Failure of all trades. Master of the none.

On Final Smashes, Lowkey I would get rid of them in the next Smash game, especially if The power of the next console would theoretically allow Multiple Final Smashes to be done at once

I don't think power would be factor? Also why multiple? Final Smashes is meant to be final choatic resort. The Final Trump Card. Multiple would be too much unless if we change and choose which Final Smash can go for in a match. Like 4's custom moves.

 

[Schnee117]

"Objectively" maybe in the same Mario Party or Arena Fighters are sure.

Well Arena Fighters are also objectively fighting games (it's literally in the name lmao) so thank you for agreeing that a platform fighter like Smash is indeed a fighting game.

 

[Garteam]

The Chorus Kids are part of a modern franchise that hasn't had a title in almost a decade, leading people to have doubts on the franchise getting a fighter in general.

Mach Rider is a retro title in a speculation scene that puts emphasis on token "retro fighters" thus will ironically never "age" in discussion (even though Mach Rider kinda fell off in that regard in comparison to the likes of Takamaru).

Not at all a good comparison.

Being part of a dead modern franchise hasn't stopped Isaac from maintaining relevancy in speculation. If leaks and previous consider by Sakurai were as vital to a character's health as you said they are, it's not unreasonable to assume the Chorus Kids would have gained the popularity necessary to remain at least a little more present in Smash speculation, albeit perhaps not to the degree as the massively popular Isaac. Karate Joe also massively outperformed the Chorus Kids on Source Gaming's 2022 Smash Poll, so Sakurai consideration and Grinch legacy wasn't enough to even make Chorus Kids the frontrunner among those rallying behind a Rhythm Heaven rep.

Either way, Your starting point being "People are only talking about this because they can't let go of a joke and a 5-year-old fake leak" is going to give you a skewed perception of what they bring to the table and their probability of inclusion. I'm not a Mach Rider fan, but I can acknowledge that he has genuine fans who like and want the character for his intrinsic qualities.

 

[DarthEnderX]

My perspective is...Mach Rider wasn't a good game. All of the so-called 'retro' picks are from kinda bad games.

Stop adding Fighters from bad NES games that never got sequels, Sakurai!

 

[fogbadge]

My perspective is...Mach Rider wasn't a good game. All of the so-called 'retro' picks are from kinda bad games.

Stop adding Fighters from bad NES games that never got sequels, Sakurai!

By your own definition: he did it once

 

[Dinoman96]

I keep saying this but I kinda feel like Ice Climbers were the one and only time Sakurai added a "Retro rep" (or really, NES era character) just for the sake of that.

Everyone else was either heavily requested by fans (Pit) or, in Sakurai's words, really a "surprise character" (R.O.B, Mr. Game & Watch, Duck Hunt, and yes, even Piranha Plant). It's just that former four characters mentioned here happened to be old.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Is it controversial to say that some franchises may benefit more from stages rather than fighters?

If so, which ones?

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

You said it: Mach Rider's actual source material doesn't really stand out. I think people are underestimating how deep a cut this game is even compared to Ice Climber and Kid Icarus. And at least Pit was very popular even prior to being revamped.

To be fair, the molecule rearrangement thing would probably be like one move and referencing it much further than that would be overkill. And it's not like you can go all that far with the projectiles for Mach Rider, either, if he's supposed to be a character whose primary goal is to chase you down with his bike. In any case, the high-speed, run-and-gun gameplay is again just one way to do a biker character, as opposed to the stunt-focused kit that Excitebiker would come with.

At the end of the day, the whole thing screams of holding onto surface-level qualities which, when thinking of the actual implementations, are pretty immaterial when it comes to making the moveset appreciably better than anything Excitebike has to offer. In my opinion, going for Mach Rider would be reaching pretty far down into the barrel without a clear advantage over characters you don't have to do that for.

Mach Rider support is for the most part a "Wouldn't it be cool if...?" thing and everyone knows the game is whatever, I'm not sure what need there is in taking it down like this.

But yeah Mach Rider has a lot more stuff to work with than the Excitebiker. Anything the latter can do, the former also can, and he also has all the futuristic stuff.
Making a moveset nothing but motorcycle tricks doesn't sound all that interesting to me tbh

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Either way, Your starting point being "People are only talking about this because they can't let go of a joke and a 5-year-old fake leak" is going to give you a skewed perception of what they bring to the table and their probability of inclusion. I'm not a Mach Rider fan, but I can acknowledge that he has genuine fans who like and want the character for his intrinsic qualities.

I guarantee that no one would actually be seriously talking of Mach Rider as much as they do (which again isn't much anymore) if it weren't for the fact Sakurai mentioned in the past that he wanted him, making him a prime target for a token "retro revival".
Hell, the "name" context wasn't even known about until much later; people just saw that Sakurai wanted Mach Rider and clung to it.
Just like how people clung to Muddy Mole not out of a love of Mole Mania, but from some supposed quote Sakurai said that there's no source for that "he was so interesting he might be in [Brawl's] roster already!" And that died down after we've gone several games without even a peep of Muddy Mole and no one able to actually find said quote.

People cling to characters that they perceive as likely based on things Sakurai (supposedly) says.

Mach Rider got another breath of life thanks to Chadondorf/Grinch but before that? Near radio silence since there had been many releases without Mach Rider and Takamaru was the talk of the town as the hot topic "retro revival" character.
Especially since Takamaru was mentioned to have been considered for Smash For and people took a statement that he was unlikely to be in Melee due to being exclusive to Japan to mean "he was planned for Melee". ....and of course Samurai Warriors 3 as well as Murasame Castle actually getting an international release on 3DS.


I'm not arguing that people don't like Mach Rider for liking Mach Rider. But the facts cannot be argued that we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now if Sakurai never once mentioned he wanted Mach Rider.

 

[Louie G.]

Just like how people clung to Muddy Mole not out of a love of Mole Mania, but from some supposed quote Sakurai said that there's no source for that "he was so interesting he might be in [Brawl's] roster already!" And that died down after we've gone several games without even a peep of Muddy Mole and no one able to actually find said quote.

I’ve never even heard of this actually, lol. I just thought Muddy Mole could be cool because he could dig underground and Mole Mania was a fun little game, but even back during Smash 4 that was barely a blip on the radar compared to Takamaru.

All in all though I don’t think many people are saying Mach Rider is likely anymore, just that they could be really cool. At this point I don’t know if it really matters how that started unless people are using Sakurai’s word as gospel to validate their chances. I think this current convo just spun off from me saying Excitebiker is more likely but I personally prefer Mach Rider, and honestly if anything made me aware of the character I’m pretty sure it was just the song in Melee, which has always been a favorite, and their cool trophy. So it’s all just appreciation for the idea.

The history on its own is interesting but I just question how important it is to go back and forth about whether we would or wouldn’t be talking about them otherwise. Obviously word from the devs helps propel a character into a perceived “frontrunner” status but all this time later Mach Rider stays in the conversation because of their unique appeal. Nobody is talking about Bubbles from Clu Clu Land anymore and they were practically #2 behind the Icies. So I think both ends of this conversation are correct. Just feel like this particular criticism is going on deaf ears because I haven’t seen anyone here defend Mach Rider as especially likely to happen.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I’ve never even heard of this actually, lol. I just thought Muddy Mole could be cool because he could dig underground and Mole Mania was a fun little game, but even back during Smash 4 that was barely a blip on the radar compared to Takamaru.

That's because it was a Brawl thing, not a Smash For thing.

The quote is even plastered on Muddy Mole's board.

 

[Curious Villager]

Gonna be frank here, but I legitimately wonder if people who complain about cinematic Final Smashes replacing some of the older ones, and especially the ones calling them "overused," have played...basically any other fighting game.

Making flashy, cinematic finishers wasn't a downgrade: it was Smash finally getting with the program. It's a staple of the genre. Street Fighter, King of Fighters, Guilty Gear, Mortal Kombat, Injustice, Marvel vs Capcom...hell, Nickelodeon All-Star Brawl 2, even. Most fighting game supers (or the highest level of them in cases of games with a level system) are either cinematic, or they're install supers.

I don't see how, in any world, things like Diddy's borderline non-functional Rocketbarrel Barrage, the proven-to-be-impossible-to-balance manual Super Sonic, the old "turn into a slow, lumbering monster that can get camped" versions of Giga Mac and Giga Bowser, or "play a rhythm mini game perfectly to get one of the least powerful Final Smashes" are at all preferable.

Wario Man was the only transformation Final Smash worth a damn (because it was an install that Actually Worked and was Funny), but even then, Wario's new one isn't a downgrade.

I'd agree with you if it wasn't for the fact Final Smashes are still banned for competitive play despite Sakurai trying to "get with the program".

Now you basically watered down what was at least a fun silly little thing for casual players to mess around with to just the same old cutscene Final Smashes that competitive players still wouldn't touch within a ten foot radius, pleasing pretty much neither side as they still managed to mess it up somehow. (Looking at you Princess-My-Hitbox-Takes-Up-half-of-Temple-Zelda)

 

[SPEN18]

Mach Rider support is for the most part a "Wouldn't it be cool if...?" thing and everyone knows the game is whatever, I'm not sure what need there is in taking it down like this.

But yeah Mach Rider has a lot more stuff to work with than the Excitebiker. Anything the latter can do, the former also can, and he also has all the futuristic stuff.
Making a moveset nothing but motorcycle tricks doesn't sound all that interesting to me tbh

I get that some people won't care if Mach Rider's game isn't all that great and won't budge on thinking he's the cooler character. I'm just disagreeing with them. The main thing I'm contending with anyway is saying Mach Rider would be strictly better as a fighter than Excitebiker, which I don't think is accurate at all.

What you're arguing is like saying Lyn would be a strictly better fighter than Marth because they both just swing a sword around but Lyn could pull out a bow for a few moves. Yeah, having another weapon like that is a cool way to differentiate her, but the way the two go about their swordplay is so different that Marth is still just as unique in his own way.

Again you can have your opinion on it, but saying a pure biker moveset isn't interesting is pretty close to saying things like Little Mac is boring because all he can do is punch, or Marth is boring because all he does is swing a sword.

 

[Amornal1]

I just remembered the perfect wb games rep for smash bros: maxwell from scribblenauts.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I remember when I used to really want Mach Rider and he use a chain as a weapon like Ghost Rider.

After seeing Simom and Richter with their whips, maybe the chain wasn't such a good idea lol.

Could you imagine someone having a machine gun and the whip?

 

[Opossum]

That's because it was a Brawl thing, not a Smash For thing.

The quote is even plastered on Muddy Mole's board.

When I ran the Smash 4 Muddy Mole board I spent SO LONG trying to verify this lmao. The closest I got was a single Brawl-era source saying it came from a response to an early "Smash 3" poll, but then years later it got translated and just... wasn't there.

Muddy having a one star spirit in Ultimate ended up being the biggest win we'd had in years. Sad times.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

When I ran the Smash 4 Muddy Mole board I spent SO LONG trying to verify this lmao. The closest I got was a single Brawl-era source saying it came from a response to an early "Smash 3" poll, but then years later it got translated and just... wasn't there.

Muddy having a one star spirit in Ultimate ended up being the biggest win we'd had in years. Sad times.

It's amazing how misinformation can easily be seen as fact without vetting.

Like how it was believed Meowth was planned for Smash 64 because one Wiki had him listed for years (as well as Peach and Pit) without a source.

Only to find out now that it was actually that could have been in Smash 64 albeit in place of Jigglypuff. And there's an actual scanned source to confirm this.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

Well Arena Fighters are also objectively fighting games (it's literally in the name lmao) so thank you for agreeing that a platform fighter like Smash is indeed a fighting game.

Mario Party/Kart too as well?

 

[Opossum]

Mario Party/Kart too as well?

What are you even trying to say with this lmao. There's moving the goalpost, and then there's changing the sport.

 

[Louie G.]

Learned at this point it's best just to not engage with the "is Smash a fighting game" argument. People are so set in their ways about that for whatever reason.

On a more general note though I find it odd how exclusive some people think the fighting game genre ought to be. Platformers and RPGs exist in all sorts of forms, but nobody is dying on the hill that Kingdom Hearts isn't an RPG because it's not turn based or something. Expecting fighting games to stay regulated exclusively to their traditional roots is reductive in a way that no other genre is expected to be.

How are arena fighters not fighting games, let alone platform fighters?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I know it's never gonna happen since it's a manga character, but what if Gon gets in Smash Bros?

and I'm not talking about the one y'all might be thinking about.

EDIT: I probably should've clarified what I was referring to when I made this post but this is the one:

Spoiler

View attachment 384615

Less likely then Goku IMO

 

[smashkirby]

How does everyone feel about the s' chances of returning?

On the one hand, Miis seem to progressively feel like they're slowly being phased out and de-emphasized, developing three characters with twelve specials each is time-consuming, and they're consistently among the least popular and played characters on the roster.

On the other hand, they're the only base game characters that generate any income due to the DLC Mii costumes and the concept of Miis generally are pretty iconic to Nintendo as a modern entity. They're a tough one.

I'd say they're pretty good, especially given the popularity of their costumes and all. Honestly, I'm also getting to the point where I wouldn't be TOO shocked if Smash gave us a Miitopia-styled Mii Maker within Smash itself, provided the next console doesn't have a built-in Mii Maker of its own.

What's more... more and more, I'm even coming around to the idea of having the Miis return as they are, while adding the Sportmates as sports-themed playable reps, so there's also that.

Honestly I find it bothersome how easily the fanbase fell for the whole Echo branding.

Idk, I think the ideal state is zero clones, everyone unique. In reality, I'm alright with some cloning, but I'd reserve it only for certain situations and characters.

I kind of view cloning as something that was more necessary when the roster was much smaller, but now we're big enough that a few more characters tacked on isn't really going to make much difference. What I don't want is names and faces just for the sake of them, and movesets shoehorned onto characters that don't fit.

I feel the EXACT same way! Like, don't get me wrong. I'm SO happy that the fanbase doesn't seem to be demonizing clones as a 'waste of resources' anymore (well, MOSTLY), but I don't think it'll ever NOT throw me off that giving clones a label is all it took to (mostly) make the fanbase accept them into the roster.

To the point that folks are suggesting clones almost every other day now!

Sorry to tangent a bit, but I want to draw some attention briefly toward one of the other picks I made on my roster - Excitebiker.

How do we feel about that character? As far as "retro" or surprise picks go, are there any other characters you think may be in higher standing for consideration? Being such a striking idea that Sakurai thought of so long ago, I wonder how attached he was to the concept that he might want to revisit 20 years later now that it's more feasible and not as weird. Takamaru still comes up often, but I wonder if Sakurai has changed his mind about that too. Personally I see Excitebiker more in the ROB or Duck Hunt camp rather than the Icies or Pit camp of reimagination, the latter which Takamaru is more suited for.

I feel like Excitebike is a game in high standing at Nintendo, enough to have actual sequels and be referenced all the time in games like Mario Kart and WarioWare. That might not directly mean anything to Sakurai, but it probably has kept the series present in his mind compared to some other forgotten IPs and icons. Very similar to Duck Hunt, in my opinion. And the originality factor writes itself, Wario Bike withstanding... that's just one move anyway. I see Excitebiker slotting in perfectly as another wonderfully awkward surprise character.

I'd personally still prefer Mach Rider just off cool factor alone, but I've warmed up to the idea of getting Excitebiker instead. They'd probably keep him as a small, pudgy little guy and I think that'd be adorable. And it'd be fun to see how they interpret some of the retro animations into a brand new model and setting.

Pretty late to the convo here, but I wouldn't mind either Excitebiker or Mach Rider. For the record, I AM aware that Excitebiker has the higher popularity and Mach Rider has more of a 'coolness factor' to them.

Still though, with how they went out of their way to rework every stage in Ultimate to accommodate for the Minecraft quartet, maybe that 'ramps along the stage' idea Sakurai joked about could happen for Excitebiker after all...?

just want to throw out that my retro pick is the urban champion

You know, I actually came with an Urban Champion moveset a while back that modernizes the guy and pretty much turns him into Smash Bros.' answer to Cody Travers (from Final Fight/Street Fighter) and Axel Stone (from Streets of Rage).

Now that I think about it... I wonder if Sakurai's ever had Urban Champ on his mind to be playable again? I mean, he himself said the whole reason Urban Champ WASN'T picked for Melee was because 'all he ever did was punch'.

What does Little Mac do, now that he's in Smash?

 

[fogbadge]

I'd say they're pretty good, especially given the popularity of their costumes and all. Honestly, I'm also getting to the point where I wouldn't be TOO shocked if Smash gave us a Miitopia-styled Mii Maker within Smash itself, provided the next console doesn't have a built-in Mii Maker of its own.

What's more... more and more, I'm even coming around to the idea of having the Miis return as they are, while adding the Sportmates as sports-themed playable reps, so there's also that.



I feel the EXACT same way! Like, don't get me wrong. I'm SO happy that the fanbase doesn't seem to be demonizing clones as a 'waste of resources' anymore (well, MOSTLY), but I don't think it'll ever NOT throw me off that giving clones a label is all it took to (mostly) make the fanbase accept them into the roster.

To the point that folks are suggesting clones almost every other day now!



Pretty late to the convo here, but I wouldn't mind either Excitebiker or Mach Rider. For the record, I AM aware that Excitebiker has the higher popularity and Mach Rider has more of a 'coolness factor' to them.

Still though, with how they went out of their way to rework every stage in Ultimate to accommodate for the Minecraft quartet, maybe that 'ramps along the stage' idea Sakurai joked about could happen for Excitebiker after all...?



You know, I actually came with an Urban Champion moveset a while back that modernizes the guy and pretty much turns him into Smash Bros.' answer to Cody Travers (from Final Fight/Street Fighter) and Axel Stone (from Streets of Rage).

Now that I think about it... I wonder if Sakurai's ever had Urban Champ on his mind to be playable again? I mean, he himself said the whole reason Urban Champ WASN'T picked for Melee was because 'all he ever did was punch'.

What does Little Mac do, now that he's in Smash?

I had read it was cause the champion had very few moves. ironic really considering he had one more attack than the ice climbers.

 

[Louie G.]

Now that I think about it... I wonder if Sakurai's ever had Urban Champ on his mind to be playable again? I mean, he himself said the whole reason Urban Champ WASN'T picked for Melee was because 'all he ever did was punch'.

I can understand why Urban Champion has been skipped over as a character. But a little more confusing to me is how we never got a stage based on the game, with little 8-bit guys popping out of windows and dropping flower pots on the fighters. Pretty straightforward but I think that'd be a suitable homage to what could technically be considered Nintendo's first "traditional" fighting game. And a particularly innovative fighting location that involved environmental hazards all the way back in 1984, which I feel has influenced Smash all these years later.

I suppose Balloon Fight was doing this too, but they came out more or less around the same time anyway. If Urban Champion influenced Smash's more straightforward and flat stages then Balloon Fight is more in line with their larger, platform heavy ones. And fittingly we already have a stage for that one... although that's also moreso aping the stage layout for Joust I guess.

 

[fogbadge]

I can understand why Urban Champion has been skipped over as a character. But a little more confusing to me is how we never got a stage based on the game, with little 8-bit guys popping out of windows and dropping flower pots on the fighters. Pretty straightforward but I think that'd be a suitable homage to what could technically be considered Nintendo's first "traditional" fighting game. And a particularly innovative fighting location that involved environmental hazards all the way back in 1984, which I feel has influenced Smash all these years later.

I suppose Balloon Fight was doing this too, but they came out more or less around the same time anyway. If Urban Champion influenced Smash's more straightforward and flat stages then Balloon Fight is more in line with their larger, platform heavy ones. And fittingly we already have a stage for that one... although that's also moreso aping the stage layout for Joust I guess.

a stage would have been really nice

 

[Wonder Smash]

Learned at this point it's best just to not engage with the "is Smash a fighting game" argument. People are so set in their ways about that for whatever reason.

On a more general note though I find it odd how exclusive some people think the fighting game genre ought to be. Platformers and RPGs exist in all sorts of forms, but nobody is dying on the hill that Kingdom Hearts isn't an RPG because it's not turn based or something. Expecting fighting games to stay regulated exclusively to their traditional roots is reductive in a way that no other genre is expected to be.

How are arena fighters not fighting games, let alone platform fighters?

This is what I always thought too. People can accept different kind of RPGs and different kind of Shooters but not different kind of Fighting games?

Personally, I never took the whole "Smash is not a fighting game" argument seriously anyway. It was always a bad argument and made by people that just want to stir up drama with the fanbase.

 

[7NATOR]

Learned at this point it's best just to not engage with the "is Smash a fighting game" argument. People are so set in their ways about that for whatever reason.

On a more general note though I find it odd how exclusive some people think the fighting game genre ought to be. Platformers and RPGs exist in all sorts of forms, but nobody is dying on the hill that Kingdom Hearts isn't an RPG because it's not turn based or something. Expecting fighting games to stay regulated exclusively to their traditional roots is reductive in a way that no other genre is expected to be.

How are arena fighters not fighting games, let alone platform fighters?

Traditional Fighters were made to facilitate the Competitive nature of 1v1 into the game. Part of the reason SF2 was such an hit was because it was one of the only games where you could play against another Person at the time, and typically the games people consider Traditional (Both 2D, 3D, and also Anime) tend to be balanced around this aspect. The balance is definitely not perfect all the time, but the effort is there in how Characters and systems interact with each other

Arena Fighters Typically tend to be Fanservice games, since alot of the Arena Fighters are based around Anime I.Ps like Dragon Ball, Naruto, My Hero Academia, etc. These games try to put in as much Content and characters as possible, even sacrificing Individual Depth amount the roster (Both in Homogenizing the roster and even the ways to use attacks and such) and sake of Balance if need be. There still can be a Competitive nature to them of course, but I think it can be superseded by the priority to represent the Series the Arena Fighter is based on to the best of it's ability, at all costs

For Platform Fighters, I think that's mainly because Smash has had such a Monopoly on the genre for so long, and honestly still does to this day, and Smash's whole thing is to Appeal to many sides of the coins, with the main focus on Casual Aspect in many ways to play the game, with lots of characters, and ability to have Chaotic Party Esque gameplay with Items and Stage hazards. Even though there is a Focus to have Competitive elements in the game, because it's not strictly built around it might be why there's kind of a disconnect.

For as many Different systems there may be in types of Platformers, and the fact that Action RPGs like Kingdom Hearts use Action gameplay instead of Turn-Based, alot of aspects thats focused in Regular Turn Based RPGs (Stats, Big explorable world, Captivating Story, Different ways to approach the game, etc) are focused in Kingdom Hearts and other Action RPGs.

Now I do think Arena Fighters and Platform Fighters are Fighting games, and even among people that might not consider those games Fighting games, that doesn't mean they find them un-enjoyable. I think the main reason other people might not consider those types of game "Real Fighting games" is because there's little to no options in those genres that have the Same focus on the Competitive aspects that build the Formula of Traditional Fighting games, at least ones that are popular.

 

[Sucumbio]

Any news on a Nintendo Direct?

 

[Will]

Was it at EVO?

Then it’s a fighting game.

Cope.

 

[Noipoi]

Any news on a Nintendo Direct?

Zero, zip, zilch, and nada.

The rumor was for Thursday so look out for an announcement on Wednesday, I guess.

 

[Nabbitfan730]

What are you even trying to say with this lmao. There's moving the goalpost, and then there's changing the sport.

I mentioned Mario Party at the very start. Schee was one who decided to tackle only one piece of my argument.

but nobody is dying on the hill that Kingdom Hearts isn't an RPG because it's not turn based or something.

There was an entire debate for this for Final Fantasy 16 on whether it was a true RPG/Final Fantasy due it being not. Contrary to popular belief, not all genres are homogenous and yes, there are discussions to be had.

Smash's whole thing is to Appeal to many sides of the coins, with the main focus on Casual Aspect in many ways to play the game, with lots of characters, and ability to have Chaotic Party Esque gameplay with Items and Stage hazards. Even though there is a Focus to have Competitive elements in the game, because it's not strictly built around it might be why there's kind of a disconnect.

I blame Melee and its rushed development for this divide and controversy. You get crunched for 1 year one time causing a few oversights and exploits to slip through the cracks for the sequel and that all those aspects get thrown out the window

Sakurai gone out out his to admit this claiming Smash to be "Action" Party game even at the news where Ultimate acclaimed the best-selling "fighting game". Smash from the very start was designed to take advantage to be 4-player multiplayer title for 64 with many items, hazards and various modes outside traditional fighting. Elements not dissimilar with the notable games in Party Genre but yet you point it always gains some sort of anger and snark out of the people for some reason.

Maybe the reason is just insecurity. Insecurity of seeing "Party games" as lesser, causal trash or maybe something prove to the Big Boys Club at FGC that Smash hang with rest of them. I don't know

I won't deny there are many elements in Smash that come from Fighting Games. King of Fighters especially but there is a big reason that so many things from Smash like Stages, Items, Hazards and even Characters have to neutered and/or even Banned just to make competitive work.

A reason some just want to deny for some reason.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

I’m at the point id just be happy to get another retro character lol. I’m very much an Excitebike over Mach Rider guy though.

I remember when everyone was dead set on Takamaru and we got Duck Hunt, good times

 

[Ivander]

Any news on a Nintendo Direct?

Nope. There was one rumor that said one would come around Thursday, but there's been another rumor said it would come in March. Only time will tell when it gets an announcement.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Last speculation I saw was a Direct for Wednesday to be announced tomorrow (or a Thursday direct announced Wednesday) and reveal for the next system in March.