Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[NonSpecificGuy]

As a fan of the Black Knight myself I would be over the moon for him to even be an echo. I don’t think his super heavy build would mean that he is impossible. Not at all. It could make him quite unique as a sort of tank of a character. Thinking Little Mac but with an unbelievable amount of armor that will brittle down as the fight goes on.

Besides. Although he’s played out to be a hulking, absolute monster of a tank in the Radiant games it’s more of an aesthetic choice of his own because as the Black Knight and as Zelgius it’s been shown he is quite nimble in cutscenes even fully armored. Chasing down Ike or taking down the speedy cat Laguz Ranulf kind of proves that his slow movement is more of an intimidation technique by him more than anything.

 

[Opossum]

Out of curiosity do you also think Chrom using Marth's moveset is incredibly dumb or is that arbitrarily okay despite not sharing build, frame nor fighting style?

He uses Roy's moveset with altered animations to match his swordplay style. In other words, he specifically doesn't fight like Marth, but as a much more close combat rush down oriented variant. Chrom wasn't the example to go with here, especially since he fits Roy's moveset better than Roy himself does due to Roy basically being a Smash OC due to the nature of his inclusion.

But even then, the difference between Marth's build and Chrom's build is closer to the difference between PoR Ike and RD Ike, which are literal pallet swaps in Smash due to just being some added muscle mass. It's not at all comparable to saying RD Ike could share a build with someone who's not only significantly taller, but is wearing roughly two hundred pounds of heavy plated armor.

 

[Aetheri]

Chrom doesn't have Marth's moveset. He has Roy's, minus his Up B which is Ike's and a FS that is completely unique to him. Marth and Roy in this game play nothing alike.

Both have counters, exact same side B, similar up B's, same aerials (except dair), similar Smash attacks, same grab and throws...there seems to be a lot that they have in common...especially when you consider that Roy's moveset is literally a derivative of Marth's moveset.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Look guys.

Even Isabelle's frame was considered too different to be an echo.

You wanna tell me Black Knight is more similar Ike in frame then Villager is to Isabelle?

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

Don’t get me wrong.

If I could choose a new FE character out of just pure unchecked bias it would be the Black Knight. I would 100% make him an original character but I don’t think it’s absolutely impossible to make him an Ike echo either. Especially if he’s chromified and has say Marth’s up b but it’s more of a kill move and has like 0 recovery options. Yeah I think it COULD work but I can’t deny it would take some sizing and imagination utilization to justify a ****ing monster of a character even jumping.

All in all I think Burger King is best represented as he is right now. He’s perfect.

 

[RileyXY1]

Both have counters, exact same side B, similar up B's, same aerials (except dair), similar Smash attacks, same grab and throws...there seems to be a lot that they have in common...especially when you consider that Roy's moveset is literally a derivative of Marth's moveset.

Roy's moves are different in implementation. Marth is more of a graceful fighter while Roy is more of a rush in high damage output fighter.

 

[I.D.]

As a fan of the Black Knight myself I would be over the moon for him to even be an echo. I don’t think his super heavy build would mean that he is impossible. Not at all. It could make him quite unique as a sort of tank of a character. Thinking Little Mac but with an unbelievable amount of armor that will brittle down as the fight goes on.

Besides. Although he’s played out to be a hulking, absolute monster of a tank in the Radiant games it’s more of an aesthetic choice of his own because as the Black Knight and as Zelgius it’s been shown he is quite nimble in cutscenes even fully armored. Chasing down Ike or taking down the speedy cat Laguz Ranulf kind of proves that his slow movement is more of an intimidation technique by him more than anything.

No, you don't understand, he has new moon instead of aether as a skill, this is an insurmountable difference Sakurai could never get around!

As a REAL fire emblem fan I have to get incredibly defensive every time someone suggests a FE echo fighter even when they are doing it with the best intentions!

 

[Calane]

Believe it or not, I actually played Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance. The main reason I thought the Black Knight would work as an echo is because, frankly, that's the only way I could see him actually getting in. You could argue that Dark Samus shouldn't have been an echo either, but I doubt she'd be here if she wasn't.

It might not be completely accurate to the game, but I think being an echo of Ike would have worked well enough, especially if that's the only way we could have gotten the Black Knight as a playable fighter.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

No, you don't understand, he has new moon instead of aether as a skill, this is an insurmountable difference Sakurai could never get around!

As a REAL fire emblem fan I have to get incredibly defensive every time someone suggests a FE echo fighter even when they are doing it with the best intentions!

Stop stroking your own ego and answer this for a second.

Look guys.

Even Isabelle's frame was considered too different to be an echo.

You wanna tell me Black Knight is more similar Ike in frame then Villager is to Isabelle?

The reasons echoes are echoes is because you can slap a model on a skeleton and have most of the work done.

 

[---]

As a REAL fire emblem fan

Both as a mod & as a collector, I'm going to have to ask the conversation end here if we're getting into that territory of argument.

 

[I.D.]

Stop stroking your own ego and answer this for a second.



The reasons echoes are echoes is because you can slap a model on a skeleton and have most of the work done.

Strange. Did they just slap Chrom's model on a skeleton and have most of the work done? Because it seems to me they modified most of his animations.

 

[Will]

Debating Fire Emblem?

It sure is a Saturday night on Smashboards.

 

[Nekoo]

Everyone is gangsta wanting black knight and ****.

But we all know that we need Alphonse from FE:Heroes for the real Saltboard to happens.

 

[Arcanir]

No, you don't understand, he has new moon instead of aether as a skill, this is an insurmountable difference Sakurai could never get around!

As a REAL fire emblem fan I have to get incredibly defensive every time someone suggests a FE echo fighter even when they are doing it with the best intentions!

Spoiler: Didn't see the Mod post

Black Luna's/Eclipse's animation isn't anything like Aether. Aether is as it looks in Smash: An upward and downward sword slash, which works perfectly for a recovery move. Black Luna/Eclipse is basically Black Knight slashing apart the opponent and he doesn't move much during that entire attack, which would not work as a recovery in any fashion. It would not be a proper replacement in any way and if anything Black Luna/Eclipse would be his Final Smash.

Also, drop the strawman, the reasons people are giving for it not being plausible are things that are consistent between the Echo characters and is even implied by how Sakurai stated he couldn't make Isabelle an Echo. Trying to play this off as some fanboy rant is just being dismissive of the point, and honestly does more to derail the conversation.

Edit: Sorry

 

[Lionfranky]

Halo is completely own by Microsoft, so I don't think copyright issues are problem. The problem Chief faces by far is a lack of popularity in Japan, the Xbox and Halo sell pretty terribly, at least with Banjo his games sold decently in Japan during the N64, but Halo's popularity is borderline nonexistent in Japan.

400k (first Banjo) vs 110k (Halo 3) not world of difference. There was Halo anime collection which was sold decently there.
Well, I assume you believe that Reimu and Doom Slayer has worse chance with the same reasoning, correct?

 

[PK-remling Fire]

BK seems like he'd be a less mobile Ike and I'm honestly not sure if I'd be too into that, unless he has magic or some other different abilities to make him less samey.

Spoiler: Though I might be biased because as far as 'villainous' black knight characters go, I like this candidate more...

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Strange. Did they just slap Chrom's model on a skeleton and have most of the work done? Because it seems to me they modified most of his animations.

They edited already existing animations into slightly different animations. To argue your point better, I'd say Ken would be a better example.

But still, the point of echoes is to reduce workload by borrowing what already exists and tweaking it. Black Knight would require at least an Isabelle/Wolf style moveset.


But its clear we aren't convincing each other, so I'll drop the conversation. Let's just agree to disagree.

BK seems like he'd be a less mobile Ike and I'm honestly not sure if I'd be too into that, unless he has magic or some other different abilities to make him less samey.

He can use warp magic.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Black Knight, an incredibly slow and heavy unit, wouldn’t make any sense as an echo of one of the fastest and strongest units in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn.

This is simply a case of mostly people who haven’t played the games and are just saying it would be cool. There’s nothing wrong with thinking it would be cool, just that it wouldn’t work, and there’s no in-game reason for them to do it.

Just because two characters use swords and come from the same series doesn’t mean they can automatically play the same. That’s just silly.

 

[kevinthedot]

Want to ask a question that I’m not sure is a good idea to ask but figured eh why not?

What’s your most hot take-y character want?

Probably my desire for a League of Legends rep. I would say Shantae but she's more commonly debated.
Just feel like League would be entirely valid given how everpresent it's been due to e-sports for 10 years now.

 

[PSIGuy]

i don't think BK would fit effortlessly into Ike's moveset but lemme just say

Black Knight Ike, an incredibly slow and heavy unit fighter, wouldn’t make any sense as an echo of one of the fastest and strongest units in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn.

oops Sakurai disregarded stats because "Ike's the bulky swordsman and Marth is the lithe one" in Smash

 

[Deleted member]

Debating Fire Emblem?

It sure is a Saturday night on Smashboards.

Feels weird coming back and people are still at the throat the moment FE is brought up.
And I’m really just here because I like speculating about what random-ass from yonder card game character I want in smash, moveset and eligibility be damned. Actually playing a character... less so.
Some things never change, I guess.

 

[Gribbo]

Probably because Yakuza does everything Shenmue does, but better in every way.

Hard disagree with this. They're both good series but very different beasts outside of the obvious stuff. Yakuza is way more action-y with lots of crazy side content ranging from going on a date with a crime boss in drag to defending a Michael Jackson parody from zombies. It's fun for sure, but there's something about Shenmue's slower pace that makes you really appreciate the atmosphere. And when it gets really action-y like the stuff in Kowloon, it feels all the more exciting for it.

Though to be honest I don't think either Ryo or Kazuma would be particularly exciting in Smash Bros, unless Kazuma can attack his surroundings or Ryo gets the forklift.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Feels weird coming back and people are still at the throat the moment FE is brought up.

We're just roleplaying Fire Emblem characters.

They always seem to get into wars somehow.

 

[Perkilator]

Want to ask a question that I’m not sure is a good idea to ask but figured eh why not?

What’s your most hot take-y character want?

I personally would've taken Azura over Corrin, and Alm over Chrom (nothing against Chrom or Corrin).

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Want to ask a question that I’m not sure is a good idea to ask but figured eh why not?

What’s your most hot take-y character want?

Phoenix Wright and a Resident Evil character are my only Capcom wants. I could do without the rest personally.

 

[Idon]

Reminder:

Spoiler

I don't know how you can reconcile the fact that Isabelle got in as a non-echo purely because she has slightly different proportions from normal villager with the thought that a giant armored metal man can somehow model-swap seamlessly with Ike when they couldn't talk, fight, look, or act more different.

 

[Will]

Y'all out here saying Black Knight can't do this or can only do that and I'm just watching Dark Samus' grave after the massacre of source material Sakurai gave her. I'd definitely play as him though, I got a Swordfighter Costume of him.

 

[---]

I think there is an argument towards BK being an Ike echo; same teacher, twin swords, both are much faster in-game than in other media, etc. I just don't see BK working believably well with most of Ike's animations. And I say this as someone who's argued/still has opinions for Lyn as a Roy echo before. If Sakurai can make it work though, then myself from 2011/12 certainly wouldn't complain.

At the moment at least, I'm just happy BK got a nod as a Mii Costume in the previous game and now as an Assist Trophy. Only thing that's missing from my wish list from my hey-days of speculation that could reasonably happen is a Pegasus Sister Triangle Attack AT. RIP Dragon's Altar or Grima stage.

Edit: Sorry

I have collection pics and I'm not afraid to use them!

 

[Opossum]

Y'all out here saying Black Knight can't do this or can only do that and I'm just watching Dark Samus' grave after the massacre of source material Sakurai gave her. I'd definitely play as him though, I got a Swordfighter Costume of him.

Dark Samus is shaped exactly like Samus. That's the difference here.

 

[Will]

Want to ask a question that I’m not sure is a good idea to ask but figured eh why not?

What’s your most hot take-y character want?

Scorpion.

I think that explains itself.

Dark Samus is shaped exactly like Samus. That's the difference here.

Let me mourn, possum.

 

[Perkilator]

Y'all out here saying Black Knight can't do this or can only do that and I'm just watching Dark Samus' grave after the massacre of source material Sakurai gave her. I'd definitely play as him though, I got a Swordfighter Costume of him.

Especially when as an Assist Trophy in Smash 4. she did things that could feasibly translate into additional moves for an Echo Fighter. For reference:

They could've made an extra jab, down Smash and Neutral B from those three things, but naaah. Literally floaty Samus is where it's at, clearly!

 

[DarthEnderX]

The Black Knight is an impenetrable wall while Ike, even in his slower Smash incarnation, looks like Sonic in comparison.

Right. Just like Captain Falcon looks like Sonic in comparison to Ganondorf.

 

[Opossum]

Right. Just like Captain Falcon looks like Sonic in comparison to Ganondorf.

Ganondorf is also not an echo of Captain Falcon.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Just so we're all clear.

Clone and Semiclone =/= Echo

 

[Goombaic]

Echo is an arbitrary label anyway. I think Black Knight could definitely take a lot of inspiration from Ike's moveset, which I feel is already 70% stuff that Black Knight would do with slight alterations to the attacks. Whether or not he'd be labeled as an echo can be debated, I guess, but when Dr. Mario and Pichu aren't labeled as such but Ken is, it just becomes so ****ing stupid to argue about.

 

[Will]

Just so we're all clear.

Clone and Semiclone =/= Echo

I'd say Clones are Echoes, it's why Lucina and DP got rebranded. Someone like Dr. Mario qualifies as a Semi-Clone now, he gradually changed over time.

 

[ZephyrZ]

The biggest issue I see with BK over Ike would be his hurtbox.

Shoulder guards? They could rework animations similar to Chrom and Dark Samus. As long as the hitboxes remain mostly the same, I think the only move they'd have to really change is Aether.

Height? Smash characters heights are way off scale to begin with, not an issue.

Fighting style? Not much of a bigger stretch then Marth to Lucina, it'd still work thematically even if their are differences in their styles in canon.

Weight and speed? Remember that Ridley is lighter then Samus in this game. It'd be weird but since Ike is already on the slow / heavy side it wouldn't be too weird.

But there's no getting around how his armor wouldn't fit on Ike's hurtboxes, no matter how much you altered his animations. I don't believe we have two echos with significant different hurtbox sizes in the game. Yeah Smash hurtboxes are a bit wonky sometimes but they still roughly match their character models most of their times.

 

[KillerCage]

Want to ask a question that I’m not sure is a good idea to ask but figured eh why not?

What’s your most hot take-y character want?

Slippy Toad.
Enough said.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Ganondorf is also not an echo of Captain Falcon.

Well, they're not from the same series. If Black Shadow were added to Smash now, with the exact same moveset that Ganondorf had in Melee, he'd probably be classified as a Captain Falcon echo.

Look man, I understand your argument about source material. But, real talk, Smash doesn't care about that argument. There are characters in Smash that are Echoes of each other that are just as different in their source games as Ike is from Black Knight. And that's after one of those characters(Dark Samus) was even already an AT that was more unique than the playable version ended up being. i.e. the EXACT same situation Black Knight is in.

No matter how much you want that argument to be valid, Smash itself has already said you're wrong.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Want to ask a question that I’m not sure is a good idea to ask but figured eh why not?

What’s your most hot take-y character want?

Not sure if those are hot takes but:
-If Daisy and Richter could have been echo Alph sould have been an echo too.
-The Balloon fighter should have been the retro character of Melee instead of Ice climbers. Ice climbers should have never get in and nobody would care about them if they weren't considered classic character of the franchise.
-Golispod or Decidueye should have been the gen 7 rep.