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[iLLEST]

Hey all! I've been on these forums for the past few months but haven't really posted much. I am new to competitive smash and even newer to sheik. I mained Ike in brawl but I was a hardcore casual who didnt own the game. I picked up sheik on the 3ds and the wii-u version and it just felt... right.

Anyway, I am struggling with performing SH FF rising fairs consistently. I am consistent in FF my SHs but I tend to flub SH and will FH most of the time. Any tips? Thanks!!

Best advice is practice. What controller and button layout?

 

[DEEK4Y]

Best advice is practice. What controller and button layout?

GC and default with tap jump off. I've tried mapping shoulders and Z to jump but it feels too weird.

 

[Judo777]

Anyone else feel like jab 2 never actually combos into anything? Like its not even that close. Jab 2 seems a lot worse than in Brawl, and I only get stuff off of jab cancels, because my opponent wasn't expecting it.

 

[Noso]

I've had Jab 2 work a few times, but never when I tried to make it work. and as far as combos go, it works pretty well into ftilt at lower %

 

[Wasserwipf]

Anyone else feel like jab 2 never actually combos into anything? Like its not even that close. Jab 2 seems a lot worse than in Brawl, and I only get stuff off of jab cancels, because my opponent wasn't expecting it.

We (as in me and @Tristan_win ) actually tested that and yes, Jab 2 doesn't combo into anything. In theory bros, they can beat everything you do. (Well expect Jab combo, if done correctly, but i woudn't even be so sure bout that.)
On a side note, Jab 2 hits on frame 2, but takes 17 Frames until you're able to move again. probably it's knockback is too weak so they can interrupt. Oh and, jab 1 will be canceled by Jab 2 after frame 8, where as Jab 2 will be canceled by jab combo after frame 15. So between Jab combo and Jab cancel is only a 2 frame difference.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Yeah I knew it didn't combo for a while now. It's just for mixups, but I don't tell many people about it since they'll still claim Sheik's broken anyways lol. Which is what I do with a lot of Sheik things lmao.

 

[Rizen]

Any advice for the Mario MU? It's giving me a lot of trouble lately.

 

[ItsZyker]

I don't know if this has already been asked, but who is a good Co-Main to support Sheik's bad MUs.
Thanks before hand!
First Post :D

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I think Fox does really well as a co-main, but you still kind of have that can't kill off of a grab kind of problem. I'm sure Sonic would be good too.

 

[ItsZyker]

Which bad MUs does Sonic cover?

 

[Ralph Cecil]

It's moreso just that Sonic is really solid and doesn't have that bad of MUs in general. He's also kind of the opposite side of the spectrum than Sheik as far as hitboxes and kill power go.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Here's a question about controller settings: I've been to the lab to try out Fair shff strings even though I know how to do them, but I thought I could do better. But this time I tried doing it with Z for jump and C stick to attack in mid-air and I actually think it kinda works better than jumping Y and attacking with the joystick and A button... because if you flick the C button you can flick the joystick at the same time to do fair as you fast fall or directly before you land (and then I think it autocancels or theres a few frames of lag, idk, either way it makes no difference)..

so my question is, is that how people do it? lol If that's the case I might adust my controller settings a bit and have it be L for jump, Z for jump, R for shield, and X for grab.

 

[Ralph Cecil]

I have normal jump buttons + L, but I mostly just use X for that and have L for doing quick double jumps into aerials.

 

[Jaxas]

Here's a question about controller settings: I've been to the lab to try out Fair shff strings even though I know how to do them, but I thought I could do better. But this time I tried doing it with Z for jump and C stick to attack in mid-air and I actually think it kinda works better than jumping Y and attacking with the joystick and A button... because if you flick the C button you can flick the joystick at the same time to do fair as you fast fall or directly before you land (and then I think it autocancels or theres a few frames of lag, idk, either way it makes no difference)..

so my question is, is that how people do it? lol If that's the case I might adust my controller settings a bit and have it be L for jump, Z for jump, R for shield, and X for grab.

I tend to (try to... grumble grumble springs) jump with L then flick the Cstick for the fair; it's how I trained myself to do aerials back in Brawl.
Unfortunately I full hop with that method a lot because of how Sm4sh handles the triggers, so if you do that you have to use Z to jump or use a pro controller or something.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Interesting.

Okay, another question: When exactly does Vanish autocancel? It's mechanics are so weird. I know for a fact that from the ground, vanish only autocancels when you re-appear diagonally, but what about in the air? I went to the lab and tried it out for a bit and I tink it autocancels if used near the ground and you re-appeared in front of where you use vanish, not up, down, or diagonally. This didn't always work (or never, I didn't really record the results) when I was high in the air though.

 

[?.?]

You know I actually input shfairs ff with c-stick and x to jump it's just a speed thing honestly, and it's not too hard.

But on to my main point, I got told something yesterday that made me say whaaa~. So I was going against Jeff aka streetshark in a doubles match and got him with aerial needles>Bf. Afterwards he mentioned to me that it wasn't a true combo and that all it takes is an air dodge, I honestly thought it was if done perfectly at the right percents so I wanted to ask if testing had actually been done on this. Figured I'd ask here and tag @ Wasserwipf so everyone can see the answer.

 

[ArikadoSD]

no pls... the sickest combo ever ;_;

DONT RUIN IT

 

[?.?]

Lol, we need to know man. Otherwise we'll get screwed, I'm hoping it's a true combo and he was just wrong (which I think is he case) but if he was right holy crap I've gotten that combo a lot and people suck Hue.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Yeah that's what I was thinking haha. If people could really airdodge then how come I manage to pull it off so much?

 

[Jaxas]

I'm pretty sure that if you DI it correctly you can avoid the BF, but I'm not positive.

Anyways, in case someone wants to test more, the variables I can think of that could change whether or not it works (I'd assume at least one combination lets people out) are:

• Opponent's Percent (obviously...)
• Whether Sheik is moving, and the direction
  
• Weak (far) VS Strong (close) Needles
• Opponent's DI (hold away? Just what I've heard)

From what I've heard (but have not personally tested) if you hit the strong needles it doesn't work, and/or if you DI away and AD then it doesn't work.

 

[Key_Dream]

How do you even get started with Organized matches!? im trying to get my Sheik out there and get my name out as well but cant seem to figure this out. (Noob on this site for now)

 

[Wasserwipf]

You know I actually input shfairs ff with c-stick and x to jump it's just a speed thing honestly, and it's not too hard.

But on to my main point, I got told something yesterday that made me say whaaa~. So I was going against Jeff aka streetshark in a doubles match and got him with aerial needles>Bf. Afterwards he mentioned to me that it wasn't a true combo and that all it takes is an air dodge, I honestly thought it was if done perfectly at the right percents so I wanted to ask if testing had actually been done on this. Figured I'd ask here and tag @ Wasserwipf so everyone can see the answer.

Internet dead 3 days and now this x.x Aww well. So what we know, it can combo in trainingmode, which is usually a good sign. In addition, ou curent numbers tell us it has a huufe working gap (acc. to @Tristan_win it can work on ZSS between 95%-170%, hich is huge. Note, it CAN. Doesn't have to). So is it true? I honestly don't know. I lack a local testing partner, and wifi is usually iffy.In addition, this is an extremly situational and setup combo, it's insanely hard to reproduce stuff and do it consistently (unlike, lets say, Fthrow BF which works always the same...) In addition to this, I played Mr R online a few times, and he tried to do this to me like 5 times and I was able to dodge it EVERYTIME. He blamed wifi for this ("I would never miss that in local") which could be true, as he usually doesn't play sheik online but still.
So. I DO believe, it is a true combo, but usually at a really mall % range. Everywhere else, it can, but doesn't has to.

God I really need to get more testing done -.-

 

[?.?]

Alright thanks Wasser, I figured you of all people would have info on it. That sounds similar to what I was thinking in terms of when it works.

On to helping @ Key_Dream , this is one of those things that just takes some time if you're not a god player man. I've been playing smash at a competitive* level longer than I've been on these boards, and only recently have I started gaining the knowledge to truly be above others in terms of skill. As some know, my current goal is to become the best sheik in Florida and then I'll move on from there. With that In mind my current procedure is just to check the local tournaments and attend as many as I can (going to one in about an hour for instance). You can either check the local tournaments via this website or if you have met someone in the scene you can ask them to let you know whenever one pops up. Just keep at it man and eventually you'll find you've become a great player

I'll give one tip I feel like people never do that they should, after every match that you lose/get bodied. Ask the other player if they think you were lackluster in any way. Usually they'll be able to tell you something simple such as, "You need to work on your neutral game" and that will tell you what you need to practice

*I say competitive but it was just a ladder environment that really was a bunch of scrubs. :D Still learned the basics there.

 

[Key_Dream]

How do you even get started with Organized matches!? im trying to get my Sheik out there and get my name out as well but cant seem to figure this out. (Noob on this site for now)

I think I'ma fairly decent Sheik, it's that I need another competitive Sheik to practice with to build intensity and momentum. I need to practice those spilt second decisions with her since she has such a high recovery. I like to face my opponents with many different play styles

 

[Honor]

The best way is to stay on top of tournaments near you in my experience. It's worth the $20 (what I usually pay on the East Coast) for an afternoon of Smash and improving your game.

The online element of Smash 4 could make that easier too. I haven't had a good experience with it myself as when I play it's very laggy. Could be my net though, worth a shot to ask some of the fellas on here to play you.

 

[Noso]

I'm debating weither to switch my C stick to attack, what's the general consensus about that?

 

[ArikadoSD]

I'm debating weither to switch my C stick to attack, what's the general consensus about that?

I like having my c stick for smash attacks, but idk i could live without it. I never really tried to do running usmash without the c stick before so idk how it would be like, but thats a big reason i like the c stick. I'm also a fan of fsmash in general so yeah.

 

[Noso]

I like having my c stick for smash attacks, but idk i could live without it. I never really tried to do running usmash without the c stick before so idk how it would be like, but thats a big reason i like the c stick. I'm also a fan of fsmash in general so yeah.

I was looking over the frame data for the smash moves, and unless i'm reading them wrong(which in all possibility I might be) they are quite long compared to most of her tilts, and I've noticed something that always gets me punished in maps is being in the cooldown frames of an attack(typically a smash), so I was trying to find a way to break out of that habit.

 

[WondrousMoose]

I found a cool little trick in Training today. I don't know if it's of any use, but it looks really cool.
If you dash up to an opponent with a full hand of needles, and then immediately reverse direction, SH, and hit B, you hop over them and throw needles back at them. I imagine it could surprise someone who goes out of shield after you jump, but apart from that, I don't know if it would have much use. Regardless, it looks freakin' awesome and could maybe? combo into something.

 

[Noso]

I found a cool little trick in Training today. I don't know if it's of any use, but it looks really cool.
If you dash up to an opponent with a full hand of needles, and then immediately reverse direction, SH, and hit B, you hop over them and throw needles back at them. I imagine it could surprise someone who goes out of shield after you jump, but apart from that, I don't know if it would have much use. Regardless, it looks freakin' awesome and could maybe? combo into something.

That sounds pretty neat, I'll have to give it a try.

 

[Sean de Lure]

hey guys, I was wondering if there is enough time to dash pivot grab instead of a normal grab in sheik's (unreliable) chain grab. I can do it in training, but it might be just because the computer won't do anything. I don't have a partner I can test on :/

 

[iAft3rbang]

Is there a video somewhere of one of our kings : @Tristan_win gameplay ?

Edit : Sorry, I really meant to post this in the video thread ... oops

 

[Wasserwipf]

hey guys, I was wondering if there is enough time to dash pivot grab instead of a normal grab in sheik's (unreliable) chain grab. I can do it in training, but it might be just because the computer won't do anything. I don't have a partner I can test on :/

Nope. As you stated, its unreliable. The unreliable part of it is in fact the regrab, if you ask me. So, no.

Is there a video somewhere of one of our kings : @Tristan_win gameplay ?

Edit : Sorry, I really meant to post this in the video thread ... oops

I could provide some, but first it's not worth it as its super old and second he would probably kill me. So, no.

 

[Quickhero]

I need help with Sheik, I have an incredibly hard time actually killing with Sheik thanks to no reliable kill option (at least as far as I can tell) and I have a hard time knowing when to grab so I can even reliably get some good damage which will allow me to get the character to 150% without losing a stock. If someone could help me mitigate these issues, I would greatly appreciate it. :3

 

[ArikadoSD]

I need help with Sheik, I have an incredibly hard time actually killing with Sheik thanks to no reliable kill option (at least as far as I can tell) and I have a hard time knowing when to grab so I can even reliably get some good damage which will allow me to get the character to 150% without losing a stock. If someone could help me mitigate these issues, I would greatly appreciate it. :3

Try getting a kill before your opponent reaches like 140% or above, because then it's a lot more difficult to kill since none of her set ups would work at such high percentages. However, if you do reach 140% and above on your opponent, what I normally do is camp with needles and try to either kill with a Fair near ledge or an up air, or in extreeeme situations camp and play super safe until he's in KO range of ftilt (~160-170% with rage iirc? not sure)

At 100-130% Sheik can have some combos that could lead into deaths; weak nair to bouncing fish (good on paper but a bit harder to execute in practice imo). One thing to note about this is that even if you hit opponents with the hitbox behind Sheik and let's say, you're facing the right when you do fall down nair and opponent is knocked back to the left, you can still do a reverse bouncing fish and hit them.

Bair is a very good kill move so if you get a read with that, then props.

Something I've been doing on a whim instinctively when playing Sheik is ftilt into uair which actually kills with rage at ~110%-120% and I'm not sure if its a true combo or not, but it's definitely a very reliable kill set up that I've been using. I definitely need to lab that soon.

Gimping is a cliche answer but it really works best; try catching characters like (Dr) Mario, Falcon, Marcina, Ganon (lol), and all the characters without ridiculously long recoveries or warps (such as rosalina, pit, zelda) on their second jump, throw some hitboxes, even if weak, like weak nair or bair, and they'll really struggle to get back. Against characters like Rosalina or Pit(too), throw a nair low off-stage when you think they're about to Up B and it really harasses them quite a bit, Rosalina moreso than Pit from my experience.

And finally, my personal favourite and probably the fan favourite too, full hop needles into bouncing fish. If you don't know how to do this and you use a gamecube controller, I highly recommend using customized controls because otherwise this is very difficult to pull off. I set Z to jump specifically for this combo, but L can also work. What you would do is release needles the instance you full hop or otherwise you won't have that few frames window to initiate bouncing fish before landing and you'll suffer from lag. This works best as a gimping tech from my experience but you can land unexpecting opponents on-stage too, although I find that to be unlikely.

Also, vertical needles are good when gimping in general because it harasses so many people who try to recover low.

 

[?.?]

My favorite kill setup would be the d-tilt tipper>dj>rising u-air, which suprisingly a lot of people forget about. And as to arikado saying to not let people get past 140% it's honestly entirely preference, I love getting people past that point because they tend to get extremely flinchy and I can get some super easy smash reads off... empty shorthop>u-smash on an aerial opponent for instance lol.

Edit: Oh and also learn how to tomahawk, and condition people to shield your aerial approaches... Doing those two in tandem will allow you to net some safe grabs.

 

[Jaxas]

Just checking, but we don't have any kill-setups off of grabs, right? Dthrow->Uair is unreliable, Fthrow->Bouncing Fish doesn't work at high percents, Bthrow->Bouncing Fish doesn't work (...right? It works for me all the time, no idea if it's guaranteed though), Uthrow is too laggy to follow up (though it's good for positioning); pummeling for damage is great and all, but it'd be nice if killing off a throw were possible.

Oh yeah, and is tipper Dtilt safe on shield?

 

[Ralph Cecil]

If you get people past the %s where you can hit them off of throws or reasonably bait an airdodge then I suggest needle camping, because if you start to be aggressive you're just asking to be the victim of a random move killing you from rage lol. Also by that point needles start popping people up which makes it hard for them to approach and if you get them to 190/200% you can kill with ftilt which is really safe. As for grab combos the only things we can kill with to my knowledge are dthrow uair with the right rage or ceiling or a read with dthrow/fthrow to up-b(which should never hit). Also i'm never comfortable enough to see if dtilt is safe on shield if spaced exactly right just because it feels like it's lacking in range in the first place and would be unsafe if not spaced exactly right, but someone with more experience should probably address that more than me.

 

[ArikadoSD]

One thing I've been managing to get is Fthrow or Dthrow, bait air dodge, and then bouncing fish, which can kill at higher percentages but doesn't work if people double jump or have a frame 3 aerial or something. It's a lot safer than going for vanish but weaker also

 

[Ralph Cecil]

More or less most airdodge reads shouldn't work unless it's not at kill % lol. People just like to panic airdodge without realizing that she isn't going to kill you at the %s she's comboing out of those throws aside from a few specific situations.