New Jersey killed Brawl. They alone, and no one else.

[Supermodel From Paris]

Meta Knight should have been banned 3 years ago. Keeping Meta Knight legal has slowly killed the game.

Meta Knight players in NY/NJ and their powerful, influential tournament organizer (specifically, Alex Strife) cried about it and found reasons to justify Meta Knight's continued legality. Strife, who runs Apex, which is unavoidably the gold standard of tournament regulation, chose to keep MK legal and to remain a qualifier and keep the bloody Apex label, others followed. Nepotism at its finest.

But it was never the correct decision. Counters weren't found. Modifying the stage list only made Ice Climbers more obnoxious. His legality didn't ensure the Japanese stayed involved with the North American Smash community. They barely participated since Apex 2011. None of that was ever the point anyway; it was all to make sure M2K/whoever else didn't cry and quit. And now, 10 Meta Knight Cinderella Stories later (lookin' at you, Zero), we have arrived in exactly the world pro-ban always said we would.

5/8 characters in the top 8 this year at Apex are MK players and last year it was pretty similar. MK players win almost every tournament, with the occasional Diddy player or something beating the odds. No one cares about Brawl anymore; viewership of the Apex Brawl stream this year was down 30%, a massive number. Most of them were probably just waiting for Melee.

But it doesn't matter now, does it? You ****lords got what you want in the end. You've milked the game and community for all it was worth, played us for chumps. Apex 2014 is likely to be the last big Brawl tournament, and it has ended just the way it started and just how you wanted it to: with MK on top and money in your pockets.

**** the NJ Smash community. **** your bracket manipulation, your collusion, and **** your greed.

 

[link2702]

its sad but true in every way.....

What is most ironic is the pro-ban side constantly predicted what would happen and here it is.


But there is nothing to be done now. its time to move on.

In all honesty though, I doubt brawl would last a whole lot longer anyhow, maybe 1-2 more years, but hey, we always have P:M.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sticky plz

 

[Deku_Don]

**** the NJ Smash community. **** your bracket manipulation, your cllusion, and **** your greed.

Where was the bracket manipulation and collusion at Apex? (Unless you are talking about another tournament).

As much as you seem to be stating otherwise, I don't think Brawl would of been much more popular if MK stayed banned.

I think if you were to query a lot of smashers on whether they would watch/ be interested in brawl if MK was banned, there may not be a large amount of people who would change their minds. Melee's revival and PM growing and being so easy to obtain are doing enough damage to brawl.

 

[EPsilon933]

They barely participated since Apex 2011

That event never happened. Did you mean Apex 2012? 2 Japanese players placed top 2 as I recall

None of that was ever the point anyway; it was all to make sure M2K/whoever else didn't cry and quit. And now, 10 Meta Knight Cinderella Stories later (lookin' at you, Zero), we have arrived in exactly the world pro-ban always said we would.

5/8 characters in the top 8 this year at Apex are MK players and last year it was pretty similar. MK players win almost every tournament, with the occasional Diddy player or something beating the odds.

MK only won in Apexes 2012 and 2014. That's only half since Apex 2010

No one cares about Brawl anymore; viewership of the Apex Brawl stream this year was down 30%, a massive number. Most of them were probably just waiting for Melee.

I wonder why Brawl would be less interesting

 

[Juushichi]

This thread is silly.

What isn't deniable is that brawl is a primarily EC game at this point.

I see in WC that it's primarily on the whole a Melee region. Midwest is mixed, I think West is more PM heavy, East is probably more Melee heavy with PM/Brawl being around the same. ATL S, which is still EC lol, is a mix from what I've seen. ??? about Texas.

 

[Osennecho]

This thread is stupid, but I truly do agree that not banning MK years ago is what killed the game and I think most people can see that now in hindsight. Sadly back in 2011ish you had MK almost always getting 1st (M2K), but the top placings were diversified so most people couldn't actually see what was going to happen.That's why you can't really blame anyone except the whole community.

Also, I think he meant APEX 2012? Maybe he meant Genesis 2? IDK that had Japanese players back in 2011.

 

[pidgezero_one]

it's too bad brawl is dying cause i could not care less about pm

anyway it would be cool if Arda continued his mk/ics banned tourneys I might go to one

 

[tekkie]

a lot of NJ players are cool people, so it isn't totally fair to blame all of them.

new mexico had the best tournaments in the world for brawl. tripping-removed mk-banned biweeklies. hngggggggggggg

 

[NickRiddle]

**** MK.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I was honestly expecting a troll post...but damn, that was deep.

I never complained about MK, though. My characters have worse MUs. )=

 

[burntfish44]

100% agree, OP. with MK banned there would be actual diversity in some of these tourneys... because watching MK dittos over and over on apex stream is just so much fun! -.-

That event never happened. Did you mean Apex 2012? 2 Japanese players placed top 2 as I recall


MK only won in Apexes 2012 and 2014. That's only half since Apex 2010


I wonder why Brawl would be less interesting

Salem winning 2013 isnt exactly the point

 

[NinthWonder]

A ban on MK can attract the low tier mains that have terrible chances against a MK main.

I wouldn't ban the entire Smash population of NJ, but I do understand your point.

 

[tarextherex]

Hell no new jersey are the best, zero was one of the hypest things to come in brawl and in the end the mk lost to salem/the japanese. even in apex 2014 the others proved to be capable but sadly due to the lack of japanese players and the iffy bracket the top 8 was generic

mk is cool only dumb thing is ics really, infinites should be banned right away from smash 4, they don't fit smash

if there was a state that killed brawl it would be texas with all that scrubby mk banning that proliferated scrubs, it didn't do anything at all for the community other than making lower level players with mental blocks place better at times but most of the time the mk players still won because they are the better players. nynj are just good they don't really collude, but xyro is the one throwing all that **** so he can make money in low tier doubles because he sucks at everything else or whatnot and he seeds based on tiers and all that ****. mk banning was overall just some unnessary confusion. to learn from that for smash 4, this basically means that people need to stop making random scrubby rulesets because their bad

tho it's neither one's fault for brawl's state atm, it's more due to melee scumbags being worse than fgc scumbags, disrespect, lolpm, circlejerk documentary, etc etc

the smash community, even with brawl could have crushed all fighting games combined in terms of numbers but nope gotta act like elitist autistic nerds, smash 4 will have a bit more than the average attendance of melee/brawl in their prime but it won't because you'll have mango and his nation dissing the game and keep playing fox dittos in their basements while they are 30, you'll have hackers who will keep to think they are better than nintendo when they suck because they keep changing their **** so pros lose and they win, you'll have the kids who are in this community out of the corrupt kotaku/ign articles about pm who will start ****ting on smash 4 because they think they would be cool by doing that and ***** about them not knowing to get past megaman's camping or whatnot. r.i.p smash community will never come to fruition

 

[-LzR-]

We knew this all along. Too bad nobody cared. Now it's too late.

 

[Djent]

TBH I wonder if things would have been different had Apex 2012 not ushered in an absurd level of Japan-worship. The fact that Japanese participation at like, 2 tournaments a year was even an argument for keeping MK legal is repugnant to the rational mind. NY/NJ may have corrupt scene politics, but I don't think they could have overcome the enormous pro-ban momentum ca. mid-late 2011.

It's amazing how much the biggest Brawl tournament ever changed Brawl's evolution...for the worse.

 

[Mr. Fox]

Look at the top 8 for Apex 2014...

Only half of the players were MK mains.

Look at the top 8 for SKTAR 2...

Only two MK mains. But we also have two Diddy Kongs, an IC, a Snake, an Olimar, and a Pikachu.

I'm not seeing how MK is ruining or dominating the game at all. Other characters, even as low as Pikachu and ZSS can contend with him. Now everybody stop blaming your losses on an OP character and start learning the MU.

The main reason Brawl has gone down in popularity is because newcomers quickly learn that it's not cool to play Brawl because it's "a kid's game" and not as competitive as Melee. That's it.

 

[Admiral Pit]

I know my opinion doesn't matter since I never have been offline before, but I knew this was gonna happen. Sure, MK banned would have brought out a few more ICs, but at least they have some bad stages and MUs. Just hearing about this Apex having 5/8 of the top 8 being MKs made me cringe, and wish we had an actually more hyped diversity which last Apex had, with Salem beating the odds and winning.
But seeing how this was the last Apex til the new Smash comes out, it looks like Brawl's time is finally coming to an end. Honestly, we knew the game was gonna die out eventually, but didn't know when.

There's also the immature sides of both the Brawl and Melee communities, but since I don't know the big scoop about that, I can't say anything else. Point is that Brawl's finally dying out. What's done is done, and we can't change the past. However, once Smash4 comes out, I fear that if the game doesn't meet the expectations of certain audiences, they may go back to Melee and/or Brawl and create more conflicts, while adding Smash4 into the mix depending on its flaws. It's like when we used to be hyped when Brawl was released, then some of us bashed it as it aged. I worry that this cycle may happen again if that those expectations aren't met.

 

[Djent]

tho it's neither one's fault for brawl's state atm, it's more due to melee scumbags being worse than fgc scumbags, disrespect, lolpm, circlejerk documentary, etc etc

Can we please stop shifting the blame for Brawl's failure? We were handed an imperfect game, but we could have handled the situation much better. OP's case in point.

I think the rise of the Melee community has a lot to do with their excellent organization (thanks largely due to a few very passionate people). That's good in my mind, and it's something all communities should seek to emulate. The fact that some of their passionate players are also assholes isn't what's keeping Brawl down. They've always hated Brawl, and yet we had a very successful game for several years before things started to die off. If game-hate from the Melee crowd were really the most relevant factor, I'd predict Brawl would have never gotten off to such a successful start. But we had something good going, and we made all the worst decisions, curtailing our success.

 

[Juushichi]

mk is cool only dumb thing is ics really
if there was a state that killed brawl it would be texas
nynj are just good they don't really collude
but xyro is the one throwing all that **** so he can make money in low tier doubles because he sucks at everything else,
this basically means that people need to stop making random scrubby rulesets because their bad
it's more due to melee scumbags being worse than fgc scumbags, disrespect, lolpm, circlejerk documentary, etc etc
the smash community, even with brawl could have crushed all fighting games combined in terms of numbers but nope gotta act like elitist autistic nerds,
smash 4 will have a bit more than the average attendance of melee/brawl in their prime but it won't because you'll have mango and his nation dissing the game and keep playing fox dittos in their basements while they are 30,
you'll have hackers who will keep to think they are better than nintendo when they suck because they keep changing their **** so pros lose and they win,
you'll have the kids who are in this community out of the corrupt kotaku/ign articles about pm who will start ****ting on smash 4 because they think they would be cool by doing that and ***** about them not knowing to get past megaman's camping or whatnot.
r.i.p smash community will never come to fruition

Reaction images aside: Djent makes a very good point.

Super Smash Sundays is a great event at Super Arcade in Walnut, California. It's hosted a 120+ tournament that did not have a PR player enter as well as many 60/70/80+ events. Even PM is thriving there. Brawl was given the same opportunity, since this "FGC elitist" gave them the opportunity. Again. Brawl was also given the opportunity, but you know what happened? It fell through, people didn't show up and it was disorganized. This was outright stated in a blog from a person who runs SA.

Where are the Community Leaders for this game? Where are the collaborative TOs? Is there a popular podcast for this game? Is there a Year-in-Review? Where is the game thriving? Why is the game thriving? What new players are being drawn in? Where is the game being showcased? How is the passion for this game being shown?

Take a good look at these questions and come to your conclusions. Then you can answer what really "killed" Brawl.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Guys you need to stop pointing fingers at other players/users. Seriously. If anything is playing a big part of what's causing Brawl's decline it would be Brawl itself.
Don't forget that the director of the game made this iteration to spite competitive players and offer more accessibility at the cost of depth, longevity, and balance.

 

[Crossjeremiah]

Ya if Brawl had the potential to float still it would. but it doesn't. People have played and analyzed this game extensively and came to the conclusion that it's boring as **** to watch. Who wants to watch 2 metaknights spam tornado and up-b constantly. and each other timing each other out.

 

[tarextherex]

Can we please stop shifting the blame for Brawl's failure? We were handed an imperfect game, but we could have handled the situation much better. OP's case in point.

I think the rise of the Melee community has a lot to do with their excellent organization (thanks largely due to a few very passionate people). That's good in my mind, and it's something all communities should seek to emulate. The fact that some of their passionate players are also *******s isn't what's keeping Brawl down. They've always hated Brawl, and yet we had a very successful game for several years before things started to die off. If game-hate from the Melee crowd were really the most relevant factor, I'd predict Brawl would have never gotten off to such a successful start. But we had something good going, and we made all the worst decisions, curtailing our success.

It's not shifting it's a fact, Brawl was freaking bullied since it's release. Couple of passionate organized people aside, the issue with the current rise of Melee isn't good for the next generation of smashers because what I'm talking about is the popular opinion about the game, it's like everything conspires against it, here's an example http://gaminrealm.com/2013/11/19/project-m-ver-3-0-coming-december-9th-makes-brawl-playable/

See, this was written by a total random, but the fact that it hit random gamers is because Brawl haters constantly advertise their game by bashing the other. FGC says that smash sucks(didn't say fgc elitist at all @ Juushichi , smash can definitely learn from them, umvc3 might "be worse than" mvc2 and all but even though you have certain people ****ting on umvc3, it never matters in the grand scheme of things. also fgc have thick skin, they just straight out drama with a money match instead of doing all those skype circlejerks even though one side is clearly in the right*cough*mangohboxmarrriagecounseling*cough*), but then you got melee players saying YOOO BUT BRAWL SUCKS MELEE DA BESS, currently you got like the only time fgc gave a chance to smash but it's basically melee only because they don't care about the rest and the fact that poisoned melee exists is more evidence to them that smash in general "isn't a competitive game"

That's why I can't really blame the brawl community for this because they basically got **** on since release so they started over again from scratch instead of like idk having melee tos telling them of banning ics chaingrabs before it's too late especially because of the nature of the game BUT NO those guys end up writing essays about that in forums from smashboards to gamefaqs to ign. After the stupid doritos **** in mlg brawl community kinda stopped trying to expand because they knew that no matter what they could end up catering to their own community and that was good enough for them(who needs mlg, we got apex, that was basically that)

http://smashboards.com/threads/for-smash-4-to-succeed-we-need-to-change.337019/
^some other good points about how this nonsense holds us back. respecting past smash iterations(we only have one per generation) and trying to make a game obsolete isn't the same

 

[Djent]

I'm not worried about the doofus who wrote that article with 7 comments "conspiring" against the Brawl scene. The 163-page thread I linked in my own example contains far better examples of real attempts to undercut the scene...and they didn't work. Brawl still hosted tons of 200-300 entrant tournaments and got into MLG. But I'm sure that articles like that manage to do more damage than the discussions that were held amongst the pillars of the community.

Here, let me give you some examples of people who have tried to cooperate with the Brawl community, as well as a rundown of their experiences:

Jebailey hosted Melee & Brawl tournaments at CEO 2010 & 2011. They were cancelled due to lack of attendance & player apathy (someone left a medal on the floor, IIRC). Melee was brought back for 2014 because whaddaya know, people showed interest.

Super Smash Sundays featured Brawl every other week, but it never got as many entrants as Melee. Mike Watson would have loved it to get more, because his arcade is in a dire financial position. But eventually, he grew tired of disorganized, <40 player tournaments running as long as well-managed Melee tournaments with twice the number of entrants. Frankly, I don't blame him.

If you think apathy and disorganization are consistent themes, you'd be right: see what Jaxel had to say about his experience streaming Brawl at Apex 2014.

The hate a game receives doesn't play as big a role in dissuading competitors as you think it does. The SRK, and even the MvC3 forum have been hating on (U)MvC3 since day one, and Marvel is still the second biggest fighting game being played right now. Why? Because it's the people who are passionate that play the biggest role in a game's outcome, not the haters.

Brawl just doesn't have anyone who's passionate about keeping the scene alive anymore. Keitaro wants to host for Smash 4 and is reluctant to do more Brawl events, Xyro dislikes Brawl due to the aforementioned MK problem, and MikeHAZE (once a great Brawl TO) decided he'd rather play Melee instead. Three people who were never swayed by the hate, and they all decided they'd rather do something else for their own reasons.

Besides, if the Brawl community really was flimsy enough to be swayed by the hate, that would speak to a high degree of insecurity and/or lack of passion in Brawl players. Why should someone else's hate dissuade you from doing what you love? Is your love that weak? Seriously, I don't think you intend to, but you make Brawlers look like babies by implying that criticism is enough to make them roll over and die.

 

[Mr. Fox]

Ya if Brawl had the potential to float still it would. but it doesn't. People have played and analyzed this game extensively and came to the conclusion that it's boring as **** to watch. Who wants to watch 2 metaknights spam tornado and up-b constantly. and each other timing each other out.

I want to watch 2 Metaknights spam Tornado and Up-B constantly. And time each other out.

Many people may not enjoy Brawl's slow paced gameplay, but I for one appreciate the prediction and mind game based play. If you prefer the action-oriented and hyped combos and such from Melee then that's perfectly ok, just please don't bash on those of us that enjoy Brawl. No matter how many times people say it's a bad game for tournaments, it has proven to be a competitive, skill-based game where the best players win consistently.

 

[NinthWonder]

Whatever sounds simple on paper is always incredibly hard.

Brawl and Melee have one thing in common: they're both a part of the Smash community. Is it really that hard to embrace the fact that these games both exist in the same franchise? People like Brawl, people like Melee.

It's like arguing over liking/disliking two different bands; neither person is right or wrong, but they'll keep insisting on their opinions just to get the satisfaction of overpowering the other person if they should capitulate.

 

[prisoner]

all of this is a result of one singular fact: Brawl is a poorly designed game.

and as Eternal Yoshi pointed out, it's one of the few games I know of where the developer created the game with open contempt for the people that would play it; when the developer tries to force the hand of the players, gameplay suffers. not to mention the lack of polish -- side by side with other Nintendo products, Brawl has a lot of blemishes. it's rather obvious that Sakurai spent most of his time making trophies to oggle.

the only thing that's kept Brawl alive thus far is rampant fanboyism.

 

[lami]

I got into the scene because of Brawl. Even though I don't play it much anymore, I will always have a soft spot for it because of the memories of yesteryear. Sadly, it does look like Brawls time is headed towards the end of it's life cycle.

Although Brawl may be in it's final year, Smash 4 will hopefully accommodate the Smash scene as a game that is just as competitively viable as its predecessors. And I know this is like asking a zebra to change his stripes, I do hope that the communities of all of the existing smash games welcomes it and doesn't **** on it.

Melee is a great game. Brawl is a great game. PM is a great game. 64 is a great game. And Smash 4 will be a great game.

See ya on the Battlefield.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

the only thing that's kept Brawl alive thus far is rampant fanboyism.

This is the sole reason any game stays alive, especially Melee.

 

[prisoner]

This is the sole reason any game stays alive, especially Melee.

well, I mean fanboyism for Nintendo and it's characters, not the game itself. but, yes, I agree.

 

[Baky]

Anybody remember within the first few months of Brawl's release and people were suggesting Snake should be banned at tournies?

 

[Grey Belnades]

Xyro, rise from your grave.

 

[Mr.C]

Brawl being a trash game and terrible Melee successor, killed Brawl. A game that has minimal depth, minimal technical prowess, and caters toward lesser skilled casuals compared to it's predecessor will not have a very healthy life cycle.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Brawl being a trash game and terrible Melee successor, killed Brawl. A game that has minimal depth, minimal technical prowess, and caters toward lesser skilled casuals compared to it's predecessor will not have a very healthy life cycle.

It's almost as though Brawl's players don't care if Brawl isn't like Melee.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

To most of the ones that were awaiting Brawl and wanted to move on way back then, the problem is NOT that Brawl wasn't like Melee; the problem is that Brawl wasn't better competitively or more balanced.

If the developer actually cared about supporting competitive play, Sakurai likely would've made new movement options or found ways to compensate for what was removed in Melee, thus giving Brawl it's own feel while being competitively competent and have a better degree of balance. Alas that didn't happen.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Alas that didn't happen.

Says you. Brawl is fine as a competitive game, it just isn't a good spectator sport.

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah, I wish they would have banned MK sooner. There are much fairer, interactive, and entertaining characters that never got their chance to shine as a result.
Like Olimar and Ice Climbers.

MK definitely the problem there. Yup. **** New Jersey.

 

[-LzR-]

Ice Climbers and Olimar would have never reached such level if it wasn't for MK changing the metagame in their favor while he was being nerfed. I miss the good old stages like Rainbow Cruise.

 

[Djent]

I actually think people underrate the ability of ICs/Oli to perform when the "janky" (read: not like the popular) stages are legal. Those two still did quite well at WHOBO 5 even with the additional CPs available.

But yeah, there's no denying they wouldn't be as bad if MK hadn't inadvertently buffed them by being stupid on all but a few stages. A liberal ruleset + MK ban still leaves these guys in a good spot - they're just not busted anymore.

 

[Cassio]

I feel like I entered a black hole of irrationality, lol

#1 The Japanese coming in 2012 did change everything. If you can't see why, then (no offense) you probably dont understand smash as well as you think you do. The Japanese didnt save MK because of irrational worship, the Japanese saved MK because they changed our entire perspective on how the meta-game functions. Our understanding of Brawl pre-2012 (and it seems, most people who experienced the game at high level before then) was like living in the stone ages. Regarding the ban, the only real issue was that people felt there needed to be a blanket solution for everyone.

#2a You're kidding yourselves if you think the negative media from leaders of the communities in PM and Melee hasnt harmed Brawl, 6 months ago there were not issues. But smash has never received more coverage than it has in the past year, and many melee/PM advertisers used this to bash brawl through articles such as the article linked previously. That article with 7 comments is more important than arguments written on a message board. They do this at almost every chance they get. The worst part is this was completely unnecessary for their communities sustenance and growth, and half the time there was almost no reason for it.

#2b Indeed, if the Brawl scene were more organized even though attacks from others would have harmed it, it would (and still has) the ability to flourish. However, Melee and PM players and leaders are significantly older than Brawl's, of course they're more organized (and by the way, Jaxel had issues because melee took set-ups from Brawl. Amount of set-ups were literally the reason streaming went bad for Brawl). Its a poor comparison to make, the better comparison is the organization of the melee players to the FGC's a decade ago. Look at the ages of the Apex champs. Right now people who grew up on Brawl are hitting college and pulling their lives together, theyre not young enough or old enough to sit around and play games all day. This becomes an even bigger issue because of reason #2a.

#3 Brawl is fine competitively, I think this has very little to do with how successful a game is.




-Regarding SSS, I was supposed to be the main T.O. and wouldve ensured its success. However I had to move to college, so I set up the series and hoped I could leave it in the hands of less experienced community members and it just didnt work out. Although OXY deserves praise for helping out to get it there in the first place.
-When Mike was hosting our regular Brawl series consistently had over 50+ people usually way more. A lot of it had to do with advertising and organization. Right now the main (and secondary) Brawl T.O. in SoCal is still in high school and has less ability and experience to organize. Though even at our yearly anime-cons Brawl will muster two 100+ person events (melee doesnt draw nearly as much attendance). You can even look at the Smash Bros Discussion groups on facebook to see that Brawl is still pretty popular compared to melee.
--Mike went from Brawl > melee for reasons not having to do with the games

Age and negative media are the reasons Brawl has been hurting more lately.

As a side note, Brawl consistently draws younger players then PM and Melee. Its usually harder to deal with, but its also one of the most important characteristics of the smash community. When PM and Melee attack Brawl, it harms everyone because most just end up leaving the community. At some point Melee and PM are going to get timed out in terms of age and the animosity theyve created with younger smash players is going to hurt them most in the end.

Dang, I just owned this thread. also lol at that scar thread. I didnt realize how ill-informed the community was about competition, but then again that was 6 years ago. OP in this thread is really funny too.