New (higher) tier list ranking?

[WarpStatus]

the charge was meant to go to the Fsmash not sweet spot XP

"lets you almost, if not, fully charge a fresh sweet spotted Fsmash"

but whatever idk with grammar sometimes. you all know what I meant.lol

I believe that Phoot was not picking on your grammar, but rather the fact that even fully charging the fsmash, the knockback of the sweet spot is not affected. It only affects the hitbox that is closest to your body, I believe. Another reason our fsmash is horrible.

 

[noradseven]

As for the third question, I believe evolving metagames can apply to finding new uses for not-so-popular moves, such as nair. So I think we've taken a step in the right direction.

Remember, one step at a time. We can't plan out everything thats going to happen, so we'll take it as it comes.

I think the only unpopular moves left are neutral B which I still can't find a really good use for, and f-smash which I kinda feel the same way.

f-tilt isn't use alot but I know I used it alot back in the day then stopped and I heard some other ZSS players loved it as well, then we found out it wasn't that great after a while.

 

[Nefarious B]

ftilt is just for punishing a roll behind you I guess, you have better options if they're in front of you. And neutral b I still feel is a decent move, I use it every so often and I like throwing it out when an opponent with bad recovery is coming back to the stage (fully charged version) because it can make them do dumb things like air dodge and then be too far to recover.

 

[ph00tbag]

Yeah, how about that one step at a time thing? Instead of piling little tid-bit techs on her, let's try and master her Dsmash. I've seen a loooooot of failed follow ups to the Dsmash.

The issue here isn't knowing how to use the dsmash properly, it's that people are learning how to DI the dsmash so that they don't get hit by follow-ups.

 

[oOJaseOo]

Cant ftilt trip at 0-50% thought that was why it was good?

 

[Nefarious B]

This is my prediction of the top half (the ones that actually matter) of the roster for the June tier list. You heard it here first ...

(Tier/Character/June place/previous place)
S: MK 1-1
Snake 2-2

A: Falco 3-3
Wario 4-8
Diddy 5-7
DDD 6-4
Marth 7-6

B: GaW 8-5
Olimar 9-10/11
Pikachu 10-12
Lucario 11-10/11
ROB 12-9

C: Ice Climbers 13-15
ZSS 14-16
Kirby 15-13
Toon Link 16-17
DK 17-14
Luigi 18-21

 

[ph00tbag]

This is my prediction of the top half (the ones that actually matter) of the roster for the June tier list. You heard it here first ...

(Tier/Character/June place/previous place)
S: MK 1-1
Snake 2-2

A: Falco 3-3
Wario 4-8
Diddy 5-7
DDD 6-4
Marth 7-6

B: GaW 8-5
Olimar 9-10/11
Pikachu 10-12
Lucario 11-10/11
ROB 12-9

C: Ice Climbers 13-15
ZSS 14-16
Kirby 15-13
Toon Link 16-17
DK 17-14
Luigi 18-21

IC's will go up more than that. Lain and Meep have both been beating the snot out of some very good people with them. Lain taking a set from M2K with IC's is not something to be trifled with.

 

[Nefarious B]

I kind of agree but at the same time I don't know who they would rise above. I think they have the potential to get about Pikachu to 10th, but not much higher than that.

Also, M2K is well known to suck at his less experienced matchups, and him adapting and beating lain in losers seems to me to be pretty similar to Ninjalink taking a set off him in C3 and then losing.

Edit: sorry I don't mean for this to become a tier list discussion, this is just to show where I think ZSS will place compared to others in June.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Prediction: CF goes up more than ZSS

 

[Blind Fremen]

Prediction: CF goes up more than ZSS

NUH UH! Ganondorf is WAAAAAAAY better than Cfalc

 

[Eagleye893]

Yes, if you get really good with her, you will do awesomely. Top-tier type stuff.

You can really say that about any character though (except falcon, he's just terrible). some ness players can often beat out the higher tiered characters without problems. I think tiers aren't really the best way to judge a character's skill, because it's how the player uses that character that shows whether that character is good or not. other than that, ZSS will maybe be low B tier, Ness SHOULD BE either C, D, or E tier at least, ICs are going to eventually be high A, and captain falcon is CHUCK NORRIS TIER!! (SSSSSSSSS).

 

[ThreeSided]

You can really say that about any character though (except falcon, he's just terrible). some ness players can often beat out the higher tiered characters without problems. I think tiers aren't really the best way to judge a character's skill, because it's how the player uses that character that shows whether that character is good or not. other than that, ZSS will maybe be low B tier, Ness SHOULD BE either C, D, or E tier at least, ICs are going to eventually be high A, and captain falcon is CHUCK NORRIS TIER!! (SSSSSSSSS).

I understand what you mean. But all those characters have innate weaknesses that can't really be avoided: Ness = Easily gimpable recovery, for example. That, in reality, can't be controlled. No matter how good you are, all you can really do about this is learn to DI to avoid having to use it, but then that's something all characters can do, so it only factors in slightly more than usual. As for higher tiers, they are lacking in these unforgivable moves, or can just cover them well.

Now, what I'm saying about ZSS is that a very large amount of her weaknesses can be covered by skill, but for the most part, only a very large amount of skill. Recovery, for example: It's easily gimpable if you don't know what your doing. After you get better, you know how to incorporate plasma whip and flip into the mix, making you recover much more easily. This isn't a great example, since it doesn't take a substantial amount of skill to reach this level, but the idea behind ZSS, as shown by her gargantuan learning curve, is that once you know how to use her really well, you cover these weaknesses up to the point that she gets much, much better.

More examples; MK has plenty of weaknesses, but they are for the most part (if not the all part =P)very easily covered by his spammy attacks, etc., so if he is played right, he easily ***** everyone. ZSS also has weaknesses, and a lot of them, but a large majority can be covered up, so she can played, in my opinion, very very well, almost high-tier type play. But, it takes a looot of skill to reach a level this happens, because it is complicated and difficult.

Keep in mind that to really start hitting that up curve takes a huge amount of practice. I don't think I'm anywhere near it, and I'm pretty sure that only a few people are really around the up curve of that line.

 

[noradseven]

You can really say that about any character though (except falcon, he's just terrible). some ness players can often beat out the higher tiered characters without problems. I think tiers aren't really the best way to judge a character's skill, because it's how the player uses that character that shows whether that character is good or not. other than that, ZSS will maybe be low B tier, Ness SHOULD BE either C, D, or E tier at least, ICs are going to eventually be high A, and captain falcon is CHUCK NORRIS TIER!! (SSSSSSSSS).

Serious post lucas is a good deal better than ness, ness's recovery is good gimp able, I know someone who mains ness and does well, but still lucas's glitch recoveries are too good.

IC has way to many innate weakness's the IC's I play with if they grab you, you die unconditionally you get combed to ~130 into f-smash, the problem is especially against people like ZSS is we can avoid that grab, or if you do grab one of the IC's isn't around. Im saying they are staying at B, and captain falcon is better than you think I expect him to move up a few spaces and for link to move up about 5 spaces at least. Ganon is the worst character in the game FYI.

Don't forget alot of people get beaten by ness because they get confused because if used correctly, he has some insane priority and range on his aerials couple that with his really early kill times and he is a powerful force, but against someone that knows him well, its a different story a sad story.

Where is Mario in the tiers because we have one player down here that showed me some serious bull**** you can do with him that I never thought of.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The Mario brothers are probably the most balanced characters in the game. Not broken, not bad, Both just pretty good. Luigi is better, I think.

side note http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7WjRsEgGiY&feature=channel_page we're all doomed

 

[noradseven]

The Mario brothers are probably the most balanced characters in the game. Not broken, not bad, Both just pretty good. Luigi is better, I think.

side note http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7WjRsEgGiY&feature=channel_page we're all doomed

the weeege is better, but dude 2v1 anything is about just as ********, that's why having a partner steal your life even if you are far better than them is normally a good idea

 

[Hence]

Tomorrow's the big day, where do you think ZSS is headed, up or down?

Imo, -1 to -3 spots simply because we haven't done very well in tournament lately. People are learning how to combat ZSS as well, but only time will tell.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Up, but barely. You heard it here first.

 

[Nefarious B]

+1, with Lucario right above us. You heard it here first

 

[LuLLo]

You can really say that about any character though (except falcon, he's just terrible). some ness players can often beat out the higher tiered characters without problems. I think tiers aren't really the best way to judge a character's skill, because it's how the player uses that character that shows whether that character is good or not. other than that, ZSS will maybe be low B tier, Ness SHOULD BE either C, D, or E tier at least, ICs are going to eventually be high A, and captain falcon is CHUCK NORRIS TIER!! (SSSSSSSSS).

Actually, the Falcon Boards are doing just fine with Falcon and I believe we will soon rise in the tiers . But you're right about one thing, and that's the Chuck Norris Tier

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

+1, with Lucario right above us. You heard it here first

...

 

[ThreeSided]

Based on what I've heard, down. But DA chaining is a big freakin' deal, and it obviously wont be taken into account because it is so new, and not so much practiced.

I honestly think we will go down in tier, and with our new little tricks, will actually do much better.

Long story short, we will be underestimated. The tier list will become an innate and odd ZSS mindgame in itself. :3

 

[ohaiduhg]

Based on what I've heard, down. But DA chaining is a big freakin' deal, and it obviously wont be taken into account because it is so new, and not so much practiced.

I honestly think we will go down in tier, and with our new little tricks, will actually do much better.

Long story short, we will be underestimated. The tier list will become an innate and odd ZSS mindgame in itself. :3

I'm going to second this. ZSS might make it to C tier in the next one or something, but, if DA buffering techniques get spread out and perfected (Summer is coming up:D), her reputation will go up for sure.

People will still be intimidated to get good with her considering she isn't exactly like Meta Knight when it comes to picking her up.XD

 

[noradseven]

I'm going to second this. ZSS might make it to C tier in the next one or something, but, if DA buffering techniques get spread out and perfected (Summer is coming up:D), her reputation will go up for sure.

People will still be intimidated to get good with her considering she isn't exactly like Meta Knight when it comes to picking her up.XD

It's smash we are talking about I could train up a tournament ready ZSS player in a month or 2, this is with very little previous brawl experience. In fact lots of experience could be bad, some people get very bad habits.

 

[ohaiduhg]

It's smash we are talking about I could train up a tournament ready ZSS player in a month or 2, this is with very little previous brawl experience. In fact lots of experience could be bad, some people get very bad habits.

I question that ZSS' legitimacy.

Yeah bad experience can be bad you are right there.

 

[noradseven]

I question that ZSS' legitimacy.

Yeah bad experience can be bad you are right there.

I am assuming like 1-2 hours a day man, that is a lot, plus you haven't seen how fast some people I know have learned it, playing with lots of different people better than you is far far better than just playing alot.

 

[sasook]

B Tier Yeahyuhhzz

 

[Yankee]

Awesomeness. We will penetrate high!

 

[Blind Fremen]

SMP and nefarious were right on the money...good thing i heard from them first!

 

[ohaiduhg]

I am assuming like 1-2 hours a day man, that is a lot, plus you haven't seen how fast some people I know have learned it, playing with lots of different people better than you is far far better than just playing alot.

I still don't see it happening.

Edit: They also took out SS tier. So everything got scooched up.

 

[Nefarious B]

SMP and nefarious were right on the money...good thing i heard from them first!

Ya, funny how that went huh...

So now we have a while to **** with our new discoveries before the rest of the smash community catches on and starts learning our matchup.

 

[noradseven]

I still don't see it happening.

Edit: They also took out SS tier. So everything got scooched up.

We need less tier's and I think DDD should be A tier, move him out of top.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

We need less tier's and I think DDD should be A tier, move him out of top.

Agreed. I think Marth needs to be a lot lower too. As long as Snake, Meta Knight, Falco (I believe?) and Diddy own him, he'll never be tourney viable no matter how many low tiers he *****. Hell, ZSS is easily more viable in large tourneys.

 

[Bouse]

Until we get into S, most won't take the discussion seriously. As long as characters in the high tiers can still do things like this I doubt they'll take our AT's as immensely game changing.

 

[BRLNK88]

Agreed. I think Marth needs to be a lot lower too. As long as Snake, Meta Knight, Falco (I believe?) and Diddy own him, he'll never be tourney viable no matter how many low tiers he *****. Hell, ZSS is easily more viable in large tourneys.

lulz, Falco does NOT own Marth, the match-up is fairly even.
Marth can't be chain-grabbed, he greatly out-ranges Falco, and is quick enough to avoid the blaster. His recovery is more reliable too.
Falco is in deep **** if sent below the stage even at a low percentage, not so for Marth.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

lulz, Falco does NOT own Marth, the match-up is fairly even.
Marth can't be chain-grabbed, he greatly out-ranges Falco, and is quick enough to avoid the blaster. His recovery is more reliable too.
Falco is in deep **** if sent below the stage even at a low percentage, not so for Marth.

ZSS is faster than Marth in the air and on the ground and can't avoid the blaster for ****. Please tell us your secret.

 

[sasook]

Marth is better than you're giving him credit for. There's a lot of Marths, but only a few who actually know how to play him (I'm talking about Pierce, Kadaj, Roy_R, etc.) and they can definitely compete with the top tiers. I saw Bardull 2 stock easyseph a few months ago like it was nothing.

Also, D3 belongs in top tier. Just because -we- can theoretically destroy him doesn't mean he can't shut down over half the cast. You need to think in the big picture scenario - D3 is to brawl as Sheik was to melee, he shuts down a lot of characters from being tourney-viable. Not to the extent of MK, but definitely close to it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Marth is better than you're giving him credit for. There's a lot of Marths, but only a few who actually know how to play him (I'm talking about Pierce, Kadaj, Roy_R, etc.) and they can definitely compete with the top tiers. I saw Bardull 2 stock easyseph a few months ago like it was nothing.

Also, D3 belongs in top tier. Just because -we- can theoretically destroy him doesn't mean he can't shut down over half the cast. You need to think in the big picture scenario - D3 is to brawl as Sheik was to melee, he shuts down a lot of characters from being tourney-viable. Not to the extent of MK, but definitely close to it.

D3 shuts down half the cast but never wins anything himself. A tier is a good place for that. Marth too.

 

[noradseven]

Marth should be A tier, but so should a few others, and I have never had a problem with blaster camping the problem is blaster up close stun into grab or something else.

 

[Nefarious B]

Marth is considered a fairly even matchup on Falco, and has an advantage against Diddy just an fyi.

He loses to only three characters, the prob is those characters run the metagame (MK Snake and DDD). Those matchups are the most important ones, there's just no denying itand that's why he won't be higher than 8th or 9th eventually.

 

[lil cj]

Marth should be higher than Diddy imo
At least 4th or 5th
He's like a weaker version of MK
A skilled Marth can even give a good MK a run for his money

DDD should definitely move down
into A tier
He isnt as good as MK,Snake,Falco,Diddy, or even Marth
Marth and DDD should switch places

Im happy with ZSS's palcement
She will continue to move up
With all these new things being
discovered