New (higher) tier list ranking?

[Blind Fremen]

Most people agree that ZSS is not moving down. How far (if at all) do you think she will move up?

 

[Negi Kun1]

I feel she should be mid-low B tier. My opinion is based solely on the characters and there movesets and such, not tourney results.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I actually think ZSS is going to move down on the tier list. No I don't think she should, just that she will.

 

[Negi Kun1]

I actually think ZSS is going to move down on the tier list. No I don't think she should, just that she will.

Somehow, I believe that even though I see PT and Sonic in B tier, I feel bad for my main.

 

[noradseven]

Somehow, I believe that even though I see PT and Sonic in B tier, I feel bad for my main.

Wait sonic is in B tier when did this happen any why, and who is PT.

ZSS should be mid tier if played perfect flat out, but she is still tourny viable in my opinion.

I'm still waiting for Link to go up in tier, and for ganon and yoshi to drop.

 

[sasook]

PT = Pokemon Trainer.

Sonic in B tier? O_o

Link will never go higher than F tier.

 

[James Sparrow]

zss shouldn't go up imo, she's just too light and killable.

 

[ohaiduhg]

The tiers are based on a lot of technical stuff or being able to pick up a character quickly.

ZSS has the stun moves, but her moves do take a while to get good with. Her cooling lag and range are weird to control. I don't see her rising in ranks for a while.

Somehow, I believe that even though I see PT and Sonic in B tier, I feel bad for my main.

I can't even see them getting passed D tier. D:

ZSS should be mid tier if played perfect flat out, but she is still tourny viable in my opinion.

If you can play her perfectly you can be GODTIER.

 

[ThreeSided]

Long story short, ZSS has what is arguably the most exaggerated learning curve in the game. Yes, if you get really good with her, you will do awesomely. Top-tier type stuff. But most aren't at that level, and that sharp learning curve means that they will do no where nearly that well.

So, she stays lower tier, but always with AMAZING potential.

 

[Hence]

zss shouldn't go up imo, she's just too light and killable.

Metaknighttttt.

But seriously, I live consistently until 150-180%+ against most characters.
Her DI aerial (U-Air) is four frames and her Flip Jump breaks horizontal recovery. Her weight isn't as much of a problem as you make it out to be.

Protip: Recover like Snake. Boostjumping after you DI is just too good.

 

[noradseven]

The tiers are based on a lot of technical stuff or being able to pick up a character quickly.


If you can play her perfectly you can be GODTIER.

Tiers in Brawl are based off of a bunch of people in top hats going hurf durf I think X character is better.

I used to think she would be god tier if played perfectly, but the more I played with her the more I disagreed, imagine playing a perfect Olimar, or perfect snake, how terrifying that would be you really couldn't do much. I mean I guess a perfect ZSS could be high tier but, I mean a perfect pikachu, the second you missed a tech ever he would infinite you, I guess being perfect you would never miss a tech but I'm just pointing out that most characters if played perfectly would be ridiculous.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

ZSS, if all was fair in the world, would be listed as a top 10 character, because she is. Whether or not "the list" shows her as being top 10 doesn't really matter if that's what she actually is.

Norad, the tier list is supposed to show the potential of each character. That means it is assumed they are playing at the highest possible level.

At the highest level, ZSS is a strong competitor and boasts multiple strong matchups with high tiers. The only ones I would argue are not in her favor or even at the highest level of play are Diddy, Sheik, Meta Knight, Falco, Luigi and Pit. Of those, only three are common in high level play, and only one is a hard counter.

ZSS also way, way outclasses the rest of D-tier with the possible exception of the ever-underrated Toon Link (she is on top of it after all) and probably much of the current B- and C-tiers.

What we lack are results, which are important, but impossible to obtain when probably around five great players for the character exist worldwide.

 

[ph00tbag]

I don't see her moving up much, honestly. She has improved a lot in her own right, but relative to the current overall metagame, she's really only improved with the general flow.

 

[Kinzer]

I can't even see them getting passed D tier. D:

You do know that when people referred to PT or Sonic getting in B tier that it was meant towards character rankings, not their tier positions, right?

 

[Negi Kun1]

ZSS also way, way outclasses the rest of D-tier with the possible exception of the ever-underrated Toon Link (she is on top of it after all) and probably much of the current B- and C-tiers.

What we lack are results, which are important, but impossible to obtain when probably around five great players for the character exist worldwide.

Sounds about right to me, its a shame too because that's one of the huge reasons why she is underrated.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Sounds about right to me, its a shame too because that's one of the huge reasons why she is underrated.

It isn't that important. The game is just a web of match-ups. There's nothing stopping you from maining and owning with ZSS. The one disadvantage we might have is slower game development, but that's only if our current players aren't working to develop it, which we are and very diligently. I think we'll be fine. Plus ZSS will always be #1 in teams.

 

[Nefarious B]

I think she'll move up one or two just because others will be moving down. ROB and DK at the very least, she can pass up. Probably Pikachu and Kirby too.

She has very nice matchups, to the point where I don't really think she needs a secondary (not saying it wouldn't help) except maybe the falco matchup. I still don't believe Falco is a hard counter, but I trust what more experienced players think.

And I believe that ZSS will eventually make mid B tier, but not this time around.

 

[ohaiduhg]

But seriously, I live consistently until 150-180%+ against most characters.
Her DI aerial (U-Air) is four frames and her Flip Jump breaks horizontal recovery. Her weight isn't as much of a problem as you make it out to be.

I find this true. Have I ever mentioned the 2 best people I know main as Sonic and Pit? I'm not even kidding.

ZSS, if all was fair in the world, would be listed as a top 10 character, because she is. Whether or not "the list" shows her as being top 10 doesn't really matter if that's what she actually is.

Norad, the tier list is supposed to show the potential of each character. That means it is assumed they are playing at the highest possible level.

At the highest level, ZSS is a strong competitor and boasts multiple strong matchups with high tiers. The only ones I would argue are not in her favor or even at the highest level of play are Diddy, Sheik, Meta Knight, Falco, Luigi and Pit. Of those, only three are common in high level play, and only one is a hard counter.

ZSS also way, way outclasses the rest of D-tier with the possible exception of the ever-underrated Toon Link (she is on top of it after all) and probably much of the current B- and C-tiers.

What we lack are results, which are important, but impossible to obtain when probably around five great players for the character exist worldwide.

Facts are only facts because people believe them to be. What is a fact now, for all we know, could be considered a very stupid thought months from now...

It isn't that important. The game is just a web of match-ups. There's nothing stopping you from maining and owning with ZSS. The one disadvantage we might have is slower game development, but that's only if our current players aren't working to develop it, which we are and very diligently. I think we'll be fine. Plus ZSS will always be #1 in teams.

Yeah that works too.

Long story short, ZSS has what is arguably the most exaggerated learning curve in the game. Yes, if you get really good with her, you will do awesomely. Top-tier type stuff. But most aren't at that level, and that sharp learning curve means that they will do no where nearly that well.

So, she stays lower tier, but always with AMAZING potential.

Way to flatter ZSS mains.;D

Has anyone else noticed, people that main ZSS MAIN her and people never really use her as a secondary? There are some people who experiment but never use her seriously. I main with ZSS, second Fox, Sonic, Ike, Zelda and I quit maining Meta. But out of those characters I don't feel even half as safe as I would with ZSS for match-ups.

True, or am I just rambling about nothing to myself?

~Edit: Grammatical Errors

 

[sasook]

Well, I second her, but at the same time am very serious about learning her.

Lol, what can I say, I like characters with steep learning curves. ZSS has one of the largest in the game, and Link's is even bigger.

Learning curve is probably the biggest reason why ZSS is underrepresented, IMO.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Well, I second her, but at the same time am very serious about learning her.

Lol, what can I say, I like characters with steep learning curves. ZSS has one of the largest in the game, and Link's is even bigger.

Learning curve is probably the biggest reason why ZSS is underrepresented, IMO.

Tell me about it. BTW, Link is way too low in this poster's opinion. >_>

 

[Negi Kun1]

It isn't that important. The game is just a web of match-ups. There's nothing stopping you from maining and owning with ZSS. The one disadvantage we might have is slower game development, but that's only if our current players aren't working to develop it, which we are and very diligently. I think we'll be fine. Plus ZSS will always be #1 in teams.

You're right, while we lack many representatives, like you said, we are working very diligently. But I can't help but think its a reason shes underrated by others.

And yeah, I don't play teams myself, but I heard her and G&W wreck pretty hard.

Has anyone else noticed, people that main ZSS MAIN her and people never really use her as a secondary? There are some people who experiment but never use her seriously. I main with ZSS, second Fox, Sonic, Ike, Zelda and I quit maining Meta. But out of those characters I don't feel even half as safe as I would with ZSS for match-ups.

True, or am I just rambling about nothing to myself?

I know 2 people who use her as a secondary, however they are not very good with her so I don't really count them. Like Sasook said, she has a learning curve so you can't just pick her up and win. Well there is Sasook too, be he likes people who require work so I think he'll be fine.

Edit: Now that Link is mentioned, I do think he should be higher, not all that high, but not so low. I've fought a few good ones and well they were tough. I'd put somewhere in low C to high D tier.

 

[Afropony]

Wait sonic is in B tier when did this happen any why, and who is PT.

ZSS should be mid tier if played perfect flat out, but she is still tourny viable in my opinion.

I'm still waiting for Link to go up in tier, and for ganon and yoshi to drop.

Lol that's one of the funniest posts I've seen in a long time!

Anyway, IMO I think ZSS is probably going to stay where she is, theres quite a big difference between the IC's and her. Maybe DK will move down enough for her to rise above him.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Lol that's one of the funniest posts I've seen in a long time!

Anyway, IMO I think ZSS is probably going to stay where she is, theres quite a big difference between the IC's and her. Maybe DK will move down enough for her to rise above him.

ZSS has much better matchups overall than ICs. The main thing holding ZSS mains back from placing higher is probably the popularity of Falco and Diddy.

 

[Hence]

ZSS has much better matchups overall than ICs. The main thing holding ZSS mains back from placing higher is probably the popularity of Falco and Diddy.

What's holding tournament ZSS mains back is their lack of matchup experience.

Matchup experience allows one to take a look at say, Falco or Diddy. Well, these matchups are pretty difficult for us. Like, If I played perfectly against AZ I'd probably still get 2-0'd.
With this knowledge you may choose counterpick CHARACTERS, midtier, hightier, who cares?

I'll tell you right now that I got 2-1'd in pools by this Lucas player.
This is an example of inexperience in a matchup.
Tournament ZSS mains need moar matchup exp guize. We must place higher and make her high tier!

 

[sasook]

The thing about matchup experience is that many matchups can be learned to some extent on wifi. But ZSS fails hard on wifi, so many people stick to offline only. Therefore, little matchup experience is gained. Naturally, if you're not top level, you're gonna get beat due to this, and thus, she's underrated and underrepresented.


And I can't see Link going that high - he has too many flaws. One advantageous matchup ftl

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The thing about matchup experience is that many matchups can be learned to some extent on wifi. But ZSS fails hard on wifi, so many people stick to offline only. Therefore, little matchup experience is gained. Naturally, if you're not top level, you're gonna get beat due to this, and thus, she's underrated and underrepresented.


And I can't see Link going that high - he has too many flaws. One advantageous matchup ftl

He has at least two that I can think of. IC and Falcon.

Also, didn't Izaw get 4 at SMACK?

 

[Nefarious B]

She won't move up to where she should until people start winning some tournies, and that's just the truth of it. I've got 3-4 tournies coming up in the last month and a half or so, and while I don't expect to win anything just yet, I'm workin on that matchup xp and hopefully I'll start reppin for real soon enough.

 

[Natch]

Tiers in Brawl are based off of a bunch of people in top hats going hurf durf I think X character is better.

I used to think she would be god tier if played perfectly, but the more I played with her the more I disagreed, imagine playing a perfect Olimar, or perfect snake, how terrifying that would be you really couldn't do much. I mean I guess a perfect ZSS could be high tier but, I mean a perfect pikachu, the second you missed a tech ever he would infinite you, I guess being perfect you would never miss a tech but I'm just pointing out that most characters if played perfectly would be ridiculous.

'09.
You are '09.

Please, do not make assumptions about how the tier list is formed.


That said, I wish to contribute to this thread.

I predicted ZSS would go up with the last Tier List, and boy did she go up. I think she'll go up again this time around, not sure how much though.

 

[Blind Fremen]

Huzzah! My first thread is successful!

I keep telling my friends that ZSS is hard to play, and you all have proved me right!

 

[noradseven]

'09.
You are '09.

Please, do not make assumptions about how the tier list is formed.


That said, I wish to contribute to this thread.

I predicted ZSS would go up with the last Tier List, and boy did she go up. I think she'll go up again this time around, not sure how much though.

Jeez man chill, compared to how the other communities(GG, SF, MB...) pick tiers, with calculable formula's, that are open to the public, rather than just people that are respected in the community picking who is in what tier.

Since your an '05 then please educate me on how the tier list is made.

Huzzah! My first thread is successful!

I keep telling my friends that ZSS is hard to play, and you all have proved me right!

You could just ask them to try your character and you try theirs, but then again I tried this with my friends and they all refused except for one.

I gained more respect from them after they played 4-5 different ZSS's in tournies or casuals.

 

[sasook]

He has at least two that I can think of. IC and Falcon.

Also, didn't Izaw get 4 at SMACK?

Actually, he's 50:50 with both. His only advantageous matchup is Ganon.

I dunno about Izaw's tourney placings, seeing as he doesn't talk to us. Ever.

Except to say "Watch my new vid!" occasionally....and then he leaves again.

 

[FadedImage]

lol, that's exactly how tier lists are formed.

people in SBR throw in votes for their tier list and then put on their monocles as they laugh maniacally.

And ZSS will probably go up a very slight amount in the next one. People are realizing you can't just lolgimp her and that she's got mobility and stun combos. I see more and more ZSS's popping up.

 

[sasook]

People are realizing you can't just lolgimp her and that she's got mobility and stun combos.

Lol, seeing a character boards reaction to "we can flipstool off your edgehog" is just too good.

 

[noradseven]

Plus I think alot of the link matchups are kinda wrong, he has some that are p. impossible stopping tournament play but all the links I have played are p. terrible, and don't know that link is about complex setups and baits, alot of his game is knowing when not to attack, and timing your boomerang with your attacks for guard break setups, plus he isn't as gimp able as a lot of people tend to think, kinda like ZSS, and Ivysaur and Olimar for that matter as well.

Lol, seeing a character boards reaction to "we can flipstool off your edgehog" is just too good.

It is indeed.

Also get on the IRC so I can play you.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Do you have something against the word "pretty?"

 

[ThreeSided]

Do you have something against the word "pretty?"

ya
srsluh.

 

[noradseven]

Do you have something against the word "pretty?"

Me ohh no it comes from bad habits on another forum where we maker terrible computer puns like

tru.dat <-- terrible pun here

 

[mountain_tiger]

IMO, Zero Suit Samus should be in the lower part of B Tier. ZSS is WAY better than other characters in the D Tier. Her recover isn't nearly as bad as some people say it is, and her stun combos, up B and USmash are too good at racking up damage. And she doesn't even have much trouble killing, because if you can get a DSmash in, you can Bair or side B them into oblivion.

However, I don't think many people know of ZSS' potential yet (which is what tier lists are based on, at the end of the day), so I reckon she'll go up slightly, but not very much.

 

[Natch]

Jeez man chill, compared to how the other communities(GG, SF, MB...) pick tiers, with calculable formula's, that are open to the public, rather than just people that are respected in the community picking who is in what tier.

Since your an '05 then please educate me on how the tier list is made.

Tier Lists represent matchups, tournament results+a reflection of the current metagame.

Okay, all characters have matchups. Some characters do better against some characters than others. Some characters have lots of good matchups-others have lots of not so good ones. This is where the Tier List starts. If you have good matchups, expect to be higher on the tier list.

Next comes tournament results-if a certain player comes along, and starts doing really well with someone, they may strart a trend. More people may use that character. For instance, Falco may suddenly rise a bunch in popularity. Now, you'll see more Ice Climbers and Kirbys running around to counteract the rise of Falco. [Note, this is just an example, but bear with me here.] Ice Climbers and Kirby would therefore, rise on the tier list next time it came out.

Have you ever play an Olimar before? Really good, isn't he? He actually jumped 8 spots last tier list. Look how few people use him! Now, he has the potential to go even higher on the tier list. But so few people use him, he doesn't. However, his sheer potential was so high, he moved up because of it.

Now, it's entirely possible for a character to have a good matchup against a top tier, and yet be below them on the tier list. Kirby, for example, has a good matchup against Falco. Unfortunately, G&W gives him problems(so does Marth). That keeps him lower on the tier list.


So, it's entirely possible for YOU GUYS to go and make Zamus rise on the tier list. She moved up 5 spots from the last tier last. Now it's up to you guys to make her rise more.

Oh, btw, you probably know this, but as an outside observer....use those items. Learn Jump Canceled Item Toss, Z-Dropping/Z-Catching, Airdodge Drops/Airdodge Catches, and Glide Tossing. You can even do the movements for a DACUS and throw items.

Learn all of these-I am of the belief that items are pivotal in the metagame, and those who know how to use them to deadly effectiveness will be the winners. I would suggest learning Diddy/Rob/Snake as secondaries, so you have more, different experiences using items. Maybe not all 3 of those, but those guys are 3 characters who do well in tournaments, and have a good item game. This is no coincidence, trust me.

 

[oOJaseOo]

Characters i see going up FROM THIER CURRENT POSITION:

-Fox (there metagame has improved alot)

-Gannondorf (he has become a good counter pick against snake the most broken character)

-Kirby (Hardly any bad match ups, good DI for a light wieght and decent kill power)

-Lucas (There arnt many Lucas mains in the us and uk but in japan there are LOADS and if you havent seen them play you better cause being able to follow Mk out off the stage with powerfull spikes or killing snakes and D3's at 90% is no small feet, plus he has a very nice recovery if used right)

-Luigi (Has a few good players useing him the only one i can name is Boss but he has insane kill power an amazing recovery and crazy air priority)

-Zamus (zero suit is a character to be feared she has a spike that only heavy gods have like ike and dorf, amazing DI if you know how to, can escape the infigays like D3 and falco, decent kill power, cruel combos, is very adaptable to different stages/senarios unlike some characters that cant do anything much without a neutral stage and a very good spaceing tool.)

-Toon Link (Toons metagame has improved ALOT i know i helped with it he has alot of tricks, combos, good recovery, mindgames and tactics his match ups are evening out with none of them insanely unwinnable tho some of the less experienced players have trouble killing)

=======

i acctually think mk will move down abit because of the amount of time and effort the other characters are putting in to take him down as for the rest i dont know but these are my views no one elses and your welcome to disagree