New discovery: Infinite jumping with most characters! (STOP POSTING, USE NEW THREAD)

[Betaz]

ummm in regarding to everyone talking about how the animation has to end first and how it's similar to bowsers in that the attack animation has to end...go do bowsers ISJ ....the attack doesn't even need to come out and you can still do it... with bowser you can ISJ at the beginning of the attack...not only at the end... the weird thing is that the attack still happens even though bowser does not do the *swipe* (as in he'll still grab the opponent).....that is all...

 

[Seison]

To anyone who is still confused about what the difference between the real ISJ is and the other things we've talking about,

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fWMyvVaAWZU

above is the video of Charizard doing multiple uairs in a row without touching the ground. This is the true ISJ. So far I've done it with Marth's fair and nair, Fox's fair, and Falco's fair.

Another technique altogether that some of us (myself included) THOUGHT was the ISJ is simply buffering an immediate second jump upon landing. This is done most easily with tap jump, and has various uses of its own.

 

[acv]

Anyone who tried it when it was first discovered could have told you that. And even if you didn't know how to do the technique, notice how he shines yellow right before he performs an aerial.

While this technique (ISJ) is interesting, I think its utility is greatly hindered by the difficulty of execution. First of all, it requires that you full hop the aerial, making it difficult to space and actually land the attack. Second of all, if it only works with autocanceled aerials, you'd be better off shorthopping the aerial and repeating rather than risking this timing.

To the people who say "This is harder than wavedashing and L-canceling:" Obviously. L-canceling and wavedashing are so useful because they are so easy to execute, but only difficult to apply in a match. Even SWD is different because there is some (albeit small) indication of when to input the left-right command.

this doesnt work only with autocancelled aerials/

 

[Makkun]

Okay well I think we're sure that the way the move works is that you are inputting your (to be) infi-jump as your attack animation ends, which I'm guessing is during the back-end autocancel frames, right?

Well is it possible to do the infi-jump during the front-end autocancel frames? (Assuming the move has front-end autocancel frames)

I'm going to look at the front-end autocancelable airs list and test this... This could prove to be pretty useful if it works like this. But I kind of doubt it would.

EDIT: Alright that didn't work. And now I get it. XP I don't think it even has to do with autocancel frames at all right?

 

[Gazebo]

OP updated. Everyone still seems to be really confused, I hope this helps clear things up.

 

[acv]

i got to work consistently with all of wolf's aerials.i will try to test with all characters to try and confirm that it can be done with almost all aerials.

 

[Makkun]

OP updated. Everyone still seems to be really confused, I hope this helps clear things up.

I think some things still need to be cleared up. I'm positive that your second jump does not need to be near the ground. You can do it at any time, you should time it so that your attack has enough time to end right as it touches the ground, allowing you to ISJ.

 

[wazgood]

doesnt snakes nair autocancel when double jumped? this could be epic!

 

[MuBa]

Hmmm I wonder if this can be done in Melee...meh whatever I just hope this AT makes Brawl faster so that way Melee fanboys/girls may give this game a second chance.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Hmmm I wonder if this can be done in Melee...meh whatever I just hope this AT makes Brawl faster so that way Melee fanboys/girls may give this game a second thought.

Lol, no, something like this would have been discovered ages ago.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Does tap jump make the correct method easier too?

 

[Makkun]

doesnt snakes nair autocancel when double jumped? this could be epic!

Theoretically he could do this once, but it would require a full jump and a second jump on top of that, and since his second jump isn't high enough by itself, this means he couldn't do it repeatedly, just like Marth's Dair. You can ISJ Marth's Dair only once, since it requires you to be so high into the air, but I suppose you could ISJ it into a repeated Fair or Bair or something...

Still I'm not sure how useful this technique is for most attacks, since you're so high in the air.

However I'm experimenting with Snake's Dair and it looks like if it's possible to ISJ it as many times as you want, it will be super epic.

 

[Sliq]

I'm so glad Ganon can't do this with his fair. I'M VERY HAPPY ABOUT THIS.

 

[Makkun]

Does tap jump make the correct method easier too?

I haven't tried it, but I don't think it would be practical. The fastest way to do this is to do your second jump immediately, not letting yourself land after your first jump like in the videos. Therefor you'd be pushing your stick up twice REALLY fast. Using a jump button would make this a lot easier.

Edit: Wow. x_x I just ISJ'd Snake's Dair 3 times on a Training mode Ike, then I short-footstool-hopped him and Dair'd him off that. It was REALLY good. x_o

His Dair isn't that hard to repeatedly ISJ. The timing isn't too bad once you get it the first time. You just have to jump-second jump-Dair as quickly as possible, then do the ISJ'd dairs as soon as you can in order to keep jumping.

 

[wazgood]

Theoretically he could do this once, but it would require a full jump and a second jump on top of that, and since his second jump isn't high enough by itself, this means he couldn't do it repeatedly, just like Marth's Dair. You can ISJ Marth's Dair only once, since it requires you to be so high into the air, but I suppose you could ISJ it into a repeated Fair or Bair or something...

Still I'm not sure how useful this technique is for most attacks, since you're so high in the air.

However I'm experimenting with Snake's Dair and it looks like if it's possible to ISJ it as many times as you want, it will be super epic.

sadface. do you think uair and bair would work?

 

[Makkun]

sadface. do you think uair and bair would work?

I'm not sure. I'll try right now. I just switched over to Ganon to see what he could do. My second try with the dair, I got it, but not since then. I think that it might be possible to have lagless Thunder Stomping or whatever that is called because of ISJ. Maybe. Also his other aerials other than fair may be viable as well.

Gonna try Snake. XP I think I pretty much fully understand how to do this now.

Edit: I haven't been able to do Bair or Uair more than once, but I think it's possible to do it infinitely... the timing for the initial inf. jump is just REALLY strange.

 

[Metal_Doc]

Ok, i just did it with Ganon's u-air. It's definitely easier to pull off than with his d-air.

Lmfao, it looks scary to see Ganon ISJ with u-airs across the stage.

 

[Makkun]

Ok, i just did it with Ganon's u-air. It's definitely easier to pull off than his d-air.

That's awesome. O: I'm gonna go try more characters... I've only tried like 4.

I'm starting to think Snake's Nair is possible to ISJ as many times as you want. But I haven't been able to do it.

 

[Glick]

I just did it with luigi.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

"Ike for top tier"



what does ike have to do with any of this? and he does not belong in top tier so TAKE A SEAT FOOL!!!

 

[Makkun]

I just did it with luigi.

Every character can do it with every move... what I'm trying to figure out which moves can be done infinitely. Meaning, which attacks finish fast enough so that it can be ISJ'd. Example, Ganon can do it once with his Fair, but you have to jump as HIGH as possible, so when you come down and do your first infinite jump, it's obviously not high enough to cancel the fair into another jump, therefor not infinite. Moves like his dair are (I believe) infinite, since they finish fast enough so that you could buffer your jump and ISJ as the dair ends.

Hope that wasn't too confusing. @__@

Btw I'm making a list right now of each aerial that can be infinitely ISJ'd.

 

[Sliq]

Every character can do it with every move... what I'm trying to figure out which moves can be done infinitely. Meaning, which attacks finish fast enough so that it can be ISJ'd. Example, Ganon can do it once with his Fair, but you have to jump as HIGH as possible, so when you come down and do your first infinite jump, it's obviously not high enough to cancel the fair into another jump, therefor not infinite. Moves like his dair are (I believe) infinite, since they finish fast enough so that you could buffer your jump and ISJ as the dair ends.

Hope that wasn't too confusing. @__@

Btw I'm making a list right now of each aerial that can be infinitely ISJ'd.

It was confusing. I have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Metal_Doc]

Ganon's u-air can definitely be ISJ'd. I've gotten 4 in a row so far haha.

 

[manhunter098]

Does this have anything to do with auto-canceling aerials? Since that would mean any aerial that cannot be auto-canceled would have some issues working with this if it worked at all. Also what is the frame window for the jump input on this? Is it the same as any other buffered input (5 frames I think?) or is it smaller than that?

 

[Metal_Doc]

Auto canceled aerials work best since they are fast. But I guess in theory any aerial can work as long as the animation ends after the double jump.

The frame window is pretty ridiculous and I think it was posted that every aerial has a different timing window.

I'm still not sure if the the height of the double jump has anything to do with this.

 

[Sliq]

Ganon's fair doesn't end before he hits the ground unless you full double jump and fair right as you double jump, so I fail to see how fair canceling is possible since the move definitely won't end in time before he reaches the ground.

 

[Makkun]

It was confusing. I have no idea what you are talking about.

Basically every move can be ISJ'd at least once. Most moves can be true ISJ'd... meaning truly infinitely jumped as many times as you want.

Moves that have an animation at least 1 frame shorter than the time it takes your second jump to touch the ground can theoretically be true ISJ'd (TISJ?)

To everyone else... I'm not 100% sure but it seems like there is a 1-frame window where the jump can execute, but I think it can be buffered.

I think that the 1 frame might be either the first frame of the back-end autocancel window or the very very last frame of the aerial animation... but I think it has to do with the autocancel window.

Edit: @Sliq - It CAN be ISJ'd, but only once, and yes you have to full double jump and input the fair right away - it's really hard to time. You can't do it infinitely though 'cause obviously it takes too long after you do the inf. jumps.

 

[Glick]

Well I feel like its a bit harder with luigi.
The only reason why I posted "I just did it with luigi" is because I was trying so hard to do it and i finally did it once.
I've done it again but I can't seem to do it in a row.

Theres some special properties with luigi. I'm just trying to figure out how.

 

[Makkun]

Well I feel like its a bit harder with luigi.
The only reason why I posted "I just did it with luigi" is because I was trying so hard to do it and i finally did it once.
I've done it again but I can't seem to do it in a row.

Theres some special properties with luigi. I'm just trying to figure out how.

I agree. Luigi is insanely hard to do this with. x_x I haven't been able to ISJ any of his aerials more than once, but I'm almost positive it IS possible to do it. Just extremely hard. Do you think it would be okay to say that all of his attacks are possible to TISJ?

Should it be called TISJ? O_o

 

[Morrigan]

Why TISJ?

10isjs

 

[Makkun]

Why TISJ?

10isjs

Meaning True Infinite Second Jump.

ISJ would just be a move buffering/canceling into the second jump once.
TISJ would be moves that can buffer/cancel into second jumps as many times as you want.

All attacks can ISJ, but some are too slow to be TISJ'd. Do you get what I mean? x_x I don't feel like I'm explaining myself very well.

 

[Magus420]

Does this have anything to do with auto-canceling aerials? Since that would mean any aerial that cannot be auto-canceled would have some issues working with this if it worked at all.

At least in Melee, only 7 moves out of 130 or whatever didn't have autocancel windows at the end of the move. 5 of those were because of G&W who had no ending ACs on any aerials, and had screwed up aerial landings anyway (the other 2 were Sheik's D-Air & DK's F-Air).

Many of those were short enough that you didn't really notice them and seemed like the move had ended by that point anyway. Brawl probably isn't much different and most/all have them, just that some are much more apparent than others.


Also, does inputting more than one jump somehow mess up the ISJ even if you DO actually time one of those jumps correctly to do it? As long as you do know the actual timing for it couldn't you press X->Y->Up (or whatever buttons you have set to jump) quickly at that timing, so that each is input on the following frame or close to it, and giving you 3 'chances' so to speak to time the jump on the correct frame/s for the ISJ?

This was a good way to escape chaingrabs in Melee, and made jumping on the 1st possible frame much easier by effectively giving you a 3 frame window for a 1 frame timing.

 

[3xSwords]

I read through the whole thread and I'm impressed. I look away for less than 24 hrs and already 8 pages. Anyway I have questions for those who can answer them. Is ISJ only possible when you do an aerial or can you do it w/ all specials too (not just bowser's sideB and luigi's tornado)? And also can you do this w/o doing any attack at all? If so this will definitely be a more viable tactic in terms of usefulness.

edit: Also sticky please?

 

[Makkun]

@3xSwords: I would assume specials can use this... but I haven't tried any yet so don't take my word for it.

@Magus: I'm not sure about using Y/X/Up... but I'm pretty sure that when I was testing Luigi's Nair I got frustrated and just mashed Y and it seemed to allow me to ISJ. I'm pretty sure it's not like teching where if you press it more than once it screws it up.. you should just be able to mash the jump button, even if that's not the best way to learn how to do it. @__@

 

[MattDotZeb]

SWD had one frame precision; phanna virtually mastered it.

And he is still terrible at Melee.

 

[Makkun]

And he is still terrible at Melee.

o hai Matt. This is Daisuke no Kage from AIM. (:

But yeah, I think this technique could be mastered... I just dunno how useful it is for most characters. (Those with high second-jumps)

 

[Pure-???]

The only major useful feature of this is not having land lag, so you can juggle easier.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Meaning True Infinite Second Jump.

ISJ would just be a move buffering/canceling into the second jump once.
TISJ would be moves that can buffer/cancel into second jumps as many times as you want.

All attacks can ISJ, but some are too slow to be TISJ'd. Do you get what I mean? x_x I don't feel like I'm explaining myself very well.

Yeah, interchanging ISJ with true ISJ to distinguish between doing it infinitely vs doing it only once is a bit too confusing. I think we could reserve the term ISJ for attacks that can be done infinitely, and simply accept the fact that you can do a single instant second jump with any aerial in the game provided you have the precise timing. So Ganon cannot ISJ with his Fair, but he can do a single instant second jump with the right timing. But Ganon can presumably ISJ with any of his other aerials.

Or maybe we could change the terms to something like "lagless second jump" (LSJ) to refer to the second jump itself, but "infinite lagless second jump" (ILSJ) for when attacks can be infinitely done with this. Seems less confusing that way.

EDIT: And after thinking more about it, I think the uses of this are more limited to what I initially thought. It would definitely be good for juggling with specific moves (like Marth's Fair), and it may help approaching as well as mindgames, but it may not exactly be the new wavedash or anything. And its still really f'ing hard to do :/

 

[Makkun]

Yeah, interchanging ISJ with true ISJ to distinguish between doing it infinitely vs doing it only once is a bit too confusing. I think we should reserve the term ISJ for attacks that can be done infinitely, and simply accept the fact that you can do a single instant second jump with any aerial in the game provided you have the precise timing. So Ganon cannot ISJ with his Fair, but he can do a single instant second jump with the right timing. But Ganon can presumably ISJ with any of his other aerials.

Or maybe we could change the terms to something like "lagless second jump" (LSJ) to refer to the second jump itself, but "infinite lagless second jump" (ILSJ) for when attacks can be infinitely done with this. Seems less confusing that way.

I agree completely. That would really clear things up. I think using LSJ and ILSJ would be the best route... seeing as a lagless second jump technically is a technique and would need a way to be identified... at least until most people understand that all aerials can be cancelled.

Would this be considered cancelling?

Edit: Just to test I suppose...
"Ganon's fair can be LSJ'd, but it cannot be ILSJ'd." ..Think that sounds good?

Edit2: Yeah it is WAY too hard to be that useful from what I've seen. I've only tested a few characters though... I've noticed that the timing for Snake's dair isn't that hard at all... and it's probably going to be one of the best usages of this technique. It is insane.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

It cancels the landing animation straight into the second jump, so I assume it would be.