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Nana's Wavedash Assists (with video)

Rykard

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
797
Location
Poughkeepsie, NY
Hey everyone

Here is a video showing some grab combos that can be done by having Nana wavedash into a position she wouldn't otherwise be able to get into and continue to damage your opponent. Some of this stuff might be known or not known by all so i figured it would be a really good idea to have video representation of it for you all to see.

Click here to watch

Hope you enjoy!
 

Rykard

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
797
Location
Poughkeepsie, NY
indeed the pivot regrab could be our way of getting true 0-death chain grabs from anywhere if you mess with the AI a little more hmm

just maybe
i just wish i couid tell you more about how it works. When i was trying to record for the video, i was only able to do it a couple of times and other days i did it a few times in a row. I think that there is an exact distance for the wavedash with Nana that i just couldn't do as often as i would have liked to so i'm hoping that someone else can figure out an easier way or more consistent method to do this cause it looks awesome and probably has more uses than what i was able to show
 

Smasher89

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 4, 2005
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1,936
Location
Sweden
Nice vid, Will definitly be going for learning wavethings from backthrow now, backthrow jumped iceblock is a nice reset, and it looks like wd stuff covers the jumping option they have against iceblocks^^.

Last clip with backthrow at ledge actually guaranties a nair or double nair since fox/falcos hurtbox for their up-b is so slow, and the options fox have is either jump(read it, they will go for side be if high enough) or up-b(with or without fastfall).

Looks like these might be the things I´m looking for against CF to actually get some real damage in and possible bad DI.
 

PEEF!

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 25, 2008
Messages
5,201
Hey everyone

Here is a video showing some grab combos that can be done by having Nana wavedash into a position she wouldn't otherwise be able to get into and continue to damage your opponent. Some of this stuff might be known or not known by all so i figured it would be a really good idea to have video representation of it for you all to see.

Click here to watch

Hope you enjoy!
DI messes most of these up. I tried to utilize every one of these (except the last one) a few months ago, but it was almost never the best option. The bthrow regrab doesnt work with several standard DIs, and the utilt...you can just dthrow to walk forward utilt.

Cool video though, there are just always better options.
 

Vts

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 10, 2007
Messages
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Location
Loser's Semis vs ihavespaceballs
DI messes most of these up. I tried to utilize every one of these (except the last one) a few months ago, but it was almost never the best option. The bthrow regrab doesnt work with several standard DIs, and the utilt...you can just dthrow to walk forward utilt.
negative nancy get out!

:D
 

=Opus=

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 19, 2010
Messages
4
Location
Sarasota, FL
I have a quick question on some related aspects...

Does anyone know if it's possible to desync single WDs between Nana and Popo?*

I'm trying to incorporate desyncing into my game and I was trying to find an easy way to keep Nana desynced while waiting for the opponent, but without restricting movement/options by committing to an attack. If WDing close to the ground has enough frames to allow button imput for Nana while Popo is stalled (vice versa) it would be possible to react to the opponent's approach with an attack, instead of other way around. It could also give the ICs further mobility while desynced. Unfortunately, I don't have AR, so checking frame data and testing different timings is out of the question...

Just a thought. ^-^

:phone:
 

Binx

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
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Portland, Oregon
i like that idea alot opus, dunno how practical it would be since even a single wd can be punished, but i know that there are times I can get 1 wd in during a desynch but often nana synchs back up after a second one, i think this is because Nana naturally tries to jump when you do.
 

choknater

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 25, 2002
Messages
27,296
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Modesto, CA
NNID
choknater
im gonna agree with peef, but its always good to see new creative stuff come out

as far as usefulness, i do see the bthrow fsmash being useful in matches. but usually if i am gonna do a backwards DI fakeout, the fox will be at high percent so im just gonna c-stick bthrow bair
 

byron

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
94
Location
Richton park,IL
I found this out a while ago. I thought it would be good a new approach to chaingrabing.

You have expanded it to incorporating attacks(f-tilts, f-smashes, ect.) and that f-throw,f-throw toss. I think its only works when you do things like this every once in a while. Its easy for people to di out of this stuff. If you do it when they least expect it they won't have time to di out of it. They will be thinking "Huh? Why didn't he do the d-throw to d-air?" I still think its a good thing to use in matches.

Here is a vid of what I did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyOczbbzkBM
 

schoin

Smash Cadet
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Sep 16, 2007
Messages
32
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London, UK
Byron any variation in CGing is a good thing, just because it is DIable doesn't mean the opponent will be able to. Like you said if we are able to incorporate more than just a dair, it means that the opponent will have less and less of an idea of how and where to DI. So good work and this thread=profit. ^^
 

Vts

Smash Champion
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Loser's Semis vs ihavespaceballs
you still can di saddly, just some random info here is if you see nana d-throwing you turn around then grab and it swaps sides, the true go no-where chain grab but u can't control nana's grab to always d-throw and can't make her turn around so when u d-throw she regrabs and never moves

stupid little stuff i found
 

Rykard

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
797
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Poughkeepsie, NY
aren't most of the IC's chaingrabs DIable anyways? most people know how to get out of the downthrow > dair thing by now so the only thing that can really be guaranteed to get a regrab is the handoff. I thought this was pretty sweet cause you can essentially set up for that about 1/4 in from the ledge of FD backwards and even if it is DIed and Nana misses the regrab, you can still follow the tech with Popo since IC's have an awesome techchase game and your opponent doesn't really have many options when teching near the ledge. Either way it puts you in pretty good positioning and is even better on smaller stages when the backthrow regrab will cover more distance to put nana closer to the edge where she will forward throw
 

byron

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Richton park,IL
Byron any variation in CGing is a good thing, just because it is DIable doesn't mean the opponent will be able to. Like you said if we are able to incorporate more than just a dair, it means that the opponent will have less and less of an idea of how and where to DI. So good work and this thread=profit. ^^

I'm not saying people shouldn't do this in a match I'm just saying people always assume your going to do the d-throw to d-air grab. If you just switched to only doing b-throw, wave dash, grab/attack they will start trying to di that instead. I think its good to have different kinds of chain grabs and do them at random so they won't know where their going to be thrown. kind of like how people don't always know where to tech roll when they are being tech chased. I haven't been to a tournament in a while but the last one I went to I was fighting a fox in pools and he had no idea which way to di because sometimes I would back throw him others I would to the d-throw,d-air.
 

schoin

Smash Cadet
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Sep 16, 2007
Messages
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London, UK
@ Byron: I'm agreeing with you lol, I'm saying because IC's have had dthrow dair as a staple for as long as I can remember it's gotten old and dare I say kind of obsolete. So if you're in a position that you can't hand off into, it's always good to have more than the dair dthrow option regardless of whether it can be DI'd or not, because even if it can be DI'd doesn't mean it will be, as the opponent will have less of an idea the more options you have out of grab.
 

byron

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@ Byron: I'm agreeing with you lol, I'm saying because IC's have had dthrow dair as a staple for as long as I can remember it's gotten old and dare I say kind of obsolete. So if you're in a position that you can't hand off into, it's always good to have more than the dair dthrow option regardless of whether it can be DI'd or not, because even if it can be DI'd doesn't mean it will be, as the opponent will have less of an idea the more options you have out of grab.
Yeah I agree.
 

VirtualVoid

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 25, 2005
Messages
333
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Israel
Not completely related to wavedashes out of grabs, but is the following fact known?

On some characters you can perform popo bthrow > nana grab without moving at all, so this helps starting a handoff on samus for example if you are rather close to the edge with your back towards it.
 

VirtualVoid

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Israel
what?!?!?! vids please!!
I'll take that as "Nope, it's not known".

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtD8nXFgxmc

Well, from my limited testing it's only possible on the heaviest characters (Or it's insanely hard on lighter ones..), it's an extremely knacky move. Try to sharply and strongly move the analog to the side in order to throw but also don't move it all the way, move it juuuuust enough so that Nana actually turns and press Z almost straight after.

Easiest on bowser for me.
 

N1c2k3

Smash Lord
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Lynchburg, Va
Just joking, @ the Brawl comment. But seriously, this is pretty cool, but I have a hard time thinking of how useful it would be...
 

ant-d

Smash Lord
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Well, from my limited testing it's only possible on the heaviest characters (Or it's insanely hard on lighter ones..)
It's actually possible on lighter characters, just quite difficult.
'Quite difficult' here = allows for no frames of error! ie. there's only 1 frame where the re-grab can be successful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=312NOBIyEiM
This video shows the B-throw -> Re-grab and the F-throw ->WD Re-grab toss on Roy.

As the OP said, the importance lies in the length of Nana's WD. This is because she automatically gets sucked towards Popo, making the re-grab impossible.
 

Kyu Puff

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If only my chaingrabs were frame perfect...

Ant-d, is there any way to test shield pressure stuff in dolphin? I've been wondering what the shieldstun is like when an ice block bounces off somebody's shield, but there isn't any available frame data on it.
 

Vts

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Hmm so there is only 1 frame to do those perfectly in?

if anything the 2 i would see as useful would be the f-throw reverse and the b-throw reverse grab since near ledges it would get you that hand off w/e ever moving forward
 

VirtualVoid

Smash Journeyman
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I was trying to do that on lighter characters by hitting back on the analog to both throw and turn nana around in order to grab, you seem to be doing something else in the video which I cant really see. (Holding back lightly so Nana tries turning around but instead does that weird animation because she can't face backwards?).

Never mind the method, I stand corrected :p
 

ant-d

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Btw, DI is useless for everything seen in the video. Unless there are new DI techniques that I'm unaware of :)

Ant-d, is there any way to test shield pressure stuff in dolphin? I've been wondering what the shieldstun is like when an ice block bounces off somebody's shield, but there isn't any available frame data on it.
Sure. How can one make the ice-block bounce off the shield?


Hmm so there is only 1 frame to do those perfectly in?

if anything the 2 i would see as useful would be the f-throw reverse and the b-throw reverse grab since near ledges it would get you that hand off w/e ever moving forward
It depends quite highly on the other character's weight, there's sometimes 4 frames of error. 4 was the maximum I could see, but most common was 1 or 2.

I was trying to do that on lighter characters by hitting back on the analog to both throw and turn nana around in order to grab, you seem to be doing something else in the video which I cant really see. (Holding back lightly so Nana tries turning around but instead does that weird animation because she can't face backwards?).

Never mind the method, I stand corrected :p
This is the problem with never having played the game outside of frame by frame mode ;)
I didn't know how to 'turn around grab' as the original post states.

You are exactly right.
So I experimented with very lightly holding back on the stick and then grabbing. Yes, Nana does a weird animation where she turns around continuously. But, after holding back for 4+ frames it is possible to have her grab backwards, even though she is facing forward. It is this 4 frame delay that makes the timing difficult. I don't know another way to turn nana around faster.

It's important to note that I don't play this game outside frame by frame mode :p So I don't know much about real-time play/techniques.
 

Kyu Puff

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Yeah, you just need to hit their shield from the right angle (usually aiming for the top of the shield). It seems like desynched bouncing ice blocks would be pretty difficult to escape...
 

Kyu Puff

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That's what I'm asking about--we also need to know how many frames there are between each time it hits the shield.
 

FlamingForce

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 5, 2013
Messages
390
It's actually possible on lighter characters, just quite difficult.
'Quite difficult' here = allows for no frames of error! ie. there's only 1 frame where the re-grab can be successful.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=312NOBIyEiM
This video shows the B-throw -> Re-grab and the F-throw ->WD Re-grab toss on Roy.

As the OP said, the importance lies in the length of Nana's WD. This is because she automatically gets sucked towards Popo, making the re-grab impossible.

How reliable would that be in an actual match though? What if she upthrows earlier?
 
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