My thoughts on why Peach is falling behind in the metagame

[Pink Shinobi]

Imo, d-smash alone racks up enough damage, so looking and creating opportunities to hit with d-smash, racking damage from afar with turnips, and nairs and bairs are much better than relying on her forward and up tilts, since those moves are easier to punish (low priority, laggy, slow start-up, etc) with less of a reward. I don't think there are any more secrets lying in her tilt attacks. They are what they are.

Her d-tilt is usable, because although it has a slow start-up, it's safe even if it hits the shield (jab to nair-mixups), and if it hits, Peach can do awesome things afterwards.

No more hidden powers in Peach, imo. F-tilt isn't going to save you from Marth's awesome range or Fox's shine to upsmash.

 

[Shakugan]

Imo, d-smash alone racks up enough damage, so looking and creating opportunities to hit with d-smash, racking damage from afar with turnips, and nairs and bairs are much better than relying on her forward and up tilts, since those moves are easier to punish (low priority, laggy, slow start-up, etc) with less of a reward. I don't think there are any more secrets lying in her tilt attacks. They are what they are.

Her d-tilt is usable, because although it has a slow start-up, it's safe even if it hits the shield (jab to nair-mixups), and if it hits, Peach can do awesome things afterwards.

No more hidden powers in Peach, imo. F-tilt isn't going to save you from Marth's awesome range or Fox's shine to upsmash.

Good job man dashing all hopes and dreams of making ftilt and uptilt useable >.> *cries*

Shakugan, maybe im a lion

 

[Dogysamich]

if you guys want some new ideas, you outta go bug that Mike G character.

-steps back into the shadows-

 

[Samochan]

Imo, d-smash alone racks up enough damage, so looking and creating opportunities to hit with d-smash, racking damage from afar with turnips, and nairs and bairs are much better than relying on her forward and up tilts, since those moves are easier to punish (low priority, laggy, slow start-up, etc) with less of a reward. I don't think there are any more secrets lying in her tilt attacks. They are what they are.

Her d-tilt is usable, because although it has a slow start-up, it's safe even if it hits the shield (jab to nair-mixups), and if it hits, Peach can do awesome things afterwards.

Against players who know how to di that dsmash, it doesn't rack up enough damage even against space animals. <_< Peki's da man lol, dsmash him and he'll di it and punish you lol. I think I've yet to see any space animal do that, which makes me envy all the peaches who have free reign in dsmashing opponents. Flying away and tech/rolling also effectively negates any possible combo she could have gotten since they recover from one dsmash hit faster than she does from whirling her dress around. But it's a good quick move when opponents are not jumping around and are shielding a lot and not quite perfectly punishing from shield (or sticking to it instead of getting away).

Turnips can be used to camp sure, but unless you're like zomg 100% unpredictable with em, any character can basically aerial trough the turnips unless stitch and then punish you. The openings when peaches usually throw turnips are easy to see and easy to react to if she's not on your face. And then if you throw em from afar, it can be shielded and the shield even directed in such maneuver that the turnip bounces off and cannot be regrabbed. Let's not forget also grabbing the turnips nor powershielding or reflecting.

Aerials are good yea, but what you gotta consider is that ground moves beat aerial moves in priority, so that if you clash a ground move with aerial move, ground move has more chances in winning over aerial cause they cannot clank. Peach's uptilt reaches quite far around her in whipping motion, plus it has some invulnerability frames on her head too and it can be used to combo spacies, falcon, sheik and that sort, so it's not entirely bad and doesn't lack in priority. I've once used it to block falcon's aerial approach lol. I shy away from ftilt however, it just lags too much and doesn't stun enough to combo anything, only possible good use I've seen is on chaingrab and aerial behind someone's shield and reverse ftilt (yea accidents happen lol). But I agree, ftilt on most occasions suck, no hidden potential there really. >_>

Just my 2 cents.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I FC Faired Desh onto a low FoD platform in a Peach ditto and did FC Uair --> FC Uair and then he landed on the top platform and I tried to do Turnip --> Nair but my plan failed but succeeded simultaneously because the Turnip I plucked was a Stitch so I did like 86 damage to him in one go. And almost killed him from the edgeguard.

I wish Desh didn't suck. Then I could feel good about that moment.

 

[Pink Shinobi]

Good job man dashing all hopes and dreams of making ftilt and uptilt useable >.> *cries*

Shakugan, maybe im a lion

Lolz, sorry. They're usable in Brawl! xD

To Samochan. Turnips are very good if you know how to use them. Play smart and accordingly to your opponents style. It's as simple as that.

D-smash, yes, is DI-able, but even good players won't DI it perfectly each time, especially when they are being punished. Peach's metagame relies a lot on punishing mistakes (which char doesn't), and she can create openings to punish. But the fact is she simply cannot combo well. D-smash is one of her strengths, don't forget.

I've never heard the aerial and ground thing before...but I know her nair and bair destroys a lot of moves regardless.

And Peach is fine the way she is. It's just how players use her from here on out.

 

[kirbstir]

I like Peach better when she isn't using wasteful movements

 

[Rain(ame)]

Pink Shinobi- I do agree with your points, but let's face it....trying to change Peach into something better could be the difference between making it out of pools in a HUGE tournament and not. Place 9th or placing top 5 or even 3. People keep saying that there's no need to improve Peach, but I honestly just don't believe it. Sure, you can get a secondary, but Peach should be able to do more than one strategy.

The point I've been making up to now is that...we just need to add more options to her game. The same old bag of tricks won't work against say...someone like M2K, Mango, Cactuar, Chu, Shiz, etc. Shiz ESPECIALLY proved that it won't work when he beat PC's Peach. Is that showing that Peach is fine with her usual strategy? Wobbles is starting to get at Peach hard body now. The same old tricks have slowly been getting countered. Yes, they work, but if an opponent KNOWS that you're going to play that way, you might just be screwed.

Is an alternate....mix-up option so bad?

 

[pockyD]

just do it better

peach's ftilt won't suddenly become a better move after 8 years

jigglypuff's game hasn't really changed that much, and yet she (read: mango) is dominating more than ever... why? just doing the same things she's always done; just more effectively

 

[The Irish Mafia]

Got together with a friend today (not a scrub) and we played some matches. I tried pulling out some of the things we've been talking about.
1: the dtilt usually sent him behind me; it's more of an "I see you coming" attack, and led to a bair. I wouldn't say it's worth much. when it hit him straight up, I usually went to fair/dair->nair. It's not a bad way to get to a ledgeguarding position, which is what peach is all about. (he's a marth player, btw)
2: the utilt stopped a fsmash. lol
but really it's laggy and you can't get much out of it. good when you're under them, but that's about it. combos spacies pretty nicely, but it can't really juggle because 1 Peach can't wavedash, and 2 too much lag. It will have it's time.
3: toad

**** YEAH
I'm pretty proud of what I did with toad. When I get hit off the stage, my friend always fsmashes for the kill, so it came down to a matter of timing it properly and I got to the stage nice and safe. Missing the toad wasn't that bad, from there it was pretty much air-dodging to the closest platform and i was good. Definitely a move I'll be using more often.

Reading ame's post, I'd like to say this. i've been teaching a lot of brawl scrubs about melee, and one of the first thing that comes up is metagame. this is how I explain it.

the game first becomes competitive. in all tournaments, people play sheik because (to sum up) sheik has a move that can kill everyone. therefore, Everyone plays sheik, as she's the only character relevant to the metagame. Now, people find fox has a move that kills sheik. Fox is now relevant. then we find marth kills fox. He is relevant. now we have the top tier triangle. However, falcon counters sheik, and peach counters fox. (not saying peach is super against fox, still doing the example) as long as a character has a move that relates to a character who relates to the top tier triangle, they are relevant to the metagame.

excluding everything that doesn't matter in this post, what you should have picked up is that if A has a move that kills B, then they're important. Quite simply, we need more moves to kill A, B, and C. THEN we will be important to the metagame.

TLDR NEED FRESH TECHNIQUES TO NOT DIE

 

[Rain(ame)]

I found a tape...with some of my old matches...I played so weird. I pulled a Sheik with my Peach on Eggm's Falco...funny as all heck, though. I tech rolled, stopped his approach with Ftilt and followed up with Uair. O.o (Yeah...weird) The rest was just...>_> yeah.


Then I pull a Peach with my Sheik...I'm playing a Doc....and Bair -> Dsmash. Oh god....I hope I still don't do that >.<


Anyway...watching my old vids...and even remembering my old matches against Reik....Ftilt works against Falco at the very least. Yes, I know ti's not going to be amazing good out of nowhere, but it definitely screws up their groove. Just a thought. (Yes Pocky, I AM agreeing with you )

 

[Pink Shinobi]

To Rain:

Mix-ups are good actually. I'm just saying she has plenty of SAFE and EFFECTIVE moves without resorting to actually having to use F-tilts or (especially) U-Tilts >_<. I sometimes use f-tilt to wack fast fallers back in range during chain throws.........

It's like what Pocky Said. It's how effectively the players use her safer moves that have the highest rewards (which are u-b, d-b, first jab, grab, d-tilt, nair, bair, fair, uair, d-smash, up-smash, f-smash). She has a lot to work with already, imo. Her only "bad moves" are f-b, b, u-tilt, and f-tilt (but even f-tilt can be used kinda). It's how smart the players using her are now...i think Peach is still a very good char that can place well in tournies still...if she wins her first neutral...

 

[JFox]

this is dumb. No move is bad or good, some are just more situational than others. Every single move in peach's entire arsenal has some sort of use in some situation. Obviously some moves are gonna be used in more situations than others are. So rather than debating what moves are good or bad, you should really be talking about which moves are good for which situations.

Name a situation that you think utilt is good in so that other people may comment. Otherwise, we are basically just listing her moves from most to least situational...which is unnecessary.

 

[Samochan]

Jfox, if a move can be only used on very few occasions aka situational since you do not get a good outcome of it's usage, it makes it a bad move in general. >_> Good moves can be used almost everywhere or are good followups at the very least. Good moves also have little startup time and ending lag, priority, range, knockback or all of the mentioned. Ftilt has nothing of these and is really situational, which makes it a bad move.

 

[JFox]

lol, now you're gonna try to define what a bad move is to me?

Ftilt the best move to use in certain situations, and without that move peach would be worse off. Call it whatever you want, but the term "bad move" is pretty broad and should probably be avoided.

 

[pockyD]

i don't know much about peach, so i'm actually curious as to when ftilt is the best move

 

[Kouryuu]

Peach can be well off without Ftilt. Same for uptilt.

In almost all cases, when you can Ftilt/Uptilt, you can do something else which is more effective in pretty much every way.

 

[Rain(ame)]

To Shinobi:
I agree, and I think we're pretty much on the same page. I guess I'm just trying to get some feedback. In essence, I'm just trying to see if I'm on the right track with the situation to use the Ftlilt or not. As an...alternate decision. I know that there are plenty of other options..heck, even Fsmash works...but an occasional Ftilt really messes with people's heads. Well...for Falco at least.

Would you agree or disagree on that?

I know that there are safer actions to stop Falco's approach. Some might even be more effective. However, some players read through the usual Peach motions. Would you say as a mix-up option, Ftilt might work on occasion?

I hope I worded that properly.

 

[JFox]

Here are some situations where I find utilt and ftilt to be the best possible move in that situation.

Utilt the platform- Peach's utilt has almost identical range as her upsmash. Many people would use upsmash on lower platforms (stadium, FoD, yoshi's story). However, if the opponent is in combo percent, upsmash is much to laggy to be the best option. In this case, utilt is actually much better. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2FDvIf1JVI&feature=channel_page @ :34 seconds



Ftilt makes them miss their tech- This is really **** but also very situational. Lets say I'm on DL standing in the middle of the two platforms, and I grab my opponent's fox when they are at 30 percent. Now yes, I could chaingrab them for maybe an extra grab or two before they DI to a platform and escape, but thats only like 12 percent extra or something crappy. What I choose to do instead is I upthrow and ftilt JUST before they hit the ground, making my opponent miss their tech. Now you ask "but why would they miss their tech" and the answer is simple- They have already put in the tech command. In other words, if you press R right before you hit the ground, you would tech. But since my move hits you and delays your hitting the ground ever so slightly, you actually miss the tech. Once they miss the tech they are extremely vulnerable to jab, dash attack, or dtilt. Note that because how heavy you are, you dont actually pop up at all from the ftilt....before you make the assumption that you know what I'm talking about i suggest you test this one.

I am not trying to say that peach's ftilt or utilt are moves that should be used more heavily. All I am stating is there is a time and place for every single move peach has in her arsenal, and if you completely ignore that option you are only weakening her as a character.

I have a whole bunch more of these situational uses for quirky moves. I'll continue if people show interest.

 

[Mike G]

Jfox, if a move can be only used on very few occasions aka situational since you do not get a good outcome of it's usage, it makes it a bad move in general. >_> Good moves can be used almost everywhere or are good followups at the very least. Good moves also have little startup time and ending lag, priority, range, knockback or all of the mentioned. Ftilt has nothing of these and is really situational, which makes it a bad move.

Ftilt has great start up low priority. It stops a warlock punch for free LOL. Serious, Try it.


Jfox you should have started out your main as peach. Your Ideas make me smile

 

[kirbstir]

I like it when ftilt ties with marth fsmash

 

[Mike G]

It's also immune to a ness PK fire. It just passes her......like she was never there O_o

 

[Kouryuu]

Ftilt makes them miss their tech- This is really **** but also very situational. Lets say I'm on DL standing in the middle of the two platforms, and I grab my opponent's fox when they are at 30 percent. Now yes, I could chaingrab them for maybe an extra grab or two before they DI to a platform and escape, but thats only like 12 percent extra or something crappy. What I choose to do instead is I upthrow and ftilt JUST before they hit the ground, making my opponent miss their tech. Now you ask "but why would they miss their tech" and the answer is simple- They have already put in the tech command. In other words, if you press R right before you hit the ground, you would tech. But since my move hits you and delays your hitting the ground ever so slightly, you actually miss the tech. Once they miss the tech they are extremely vulnerable to jab, dash attack, or dtilt. Note that because how heavy you are, you dont actually pop up at all from the ftilt....before you make the assumption that you know what I'm talking about i suggest you test this one.

For one thing, you're opponent wont miss their tech twice in a row for the same trick (assuming he's good) so that severely hurts it's usefulness.

Also, in this situation, you're better off chainthrowing and if you're opponent is DI'ing towards a platform, then you should quickly follow up with a Nair across the entire platform. It covers all options.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

so pretty much what we need to do is expose more situations for these situational moves.

well I can do that

 

[JFox]

Jfox you should have started out your main as peach. Your Ideas make me smile

This made me smile. Thats enough motivation for me to give away my two favorite uses for utilt and ftilt. YOU GUYS READY?!

Utilt- This is the very best way to end a chaingrab on falcon, guaranteed. Falcon gets CG'd from 0 to 77. Once they get to 77% they can jump out of CG ONLY if they stop DI'ing. Most people at this time would just nair and than attempt to edgeguard. Instead- utilt nair. The utilt goes higher than grab, so the uthrow will actually combo into the utilt, and than the utilt will combo into your nair. So in other words its an extra ~13%, bringing them to 90 before the nair hits. Now the nair knocks them out further and makes it easier to edgeguard as well.

Ftilt- Use this to extend the cg on fox and falco. CG versus fox starts at ~30 and ends at 104%. At this percent they can stop DI'ing and jump out(just like falcon). Use a weak ftilt (tip of the foot only) and this will slightly pop fox up, and than allow you to regrab him(again the ftilt goes higher than grab, so the uthrow combos into weak ftilt). So you've extended the cg an extra couple of throws, which is all peach needs. At 115% uthrow upsmash and it kills off the top.

I'll post videos later lol.

 

[Kouryuu]

Utilt- This is the very best way to end a chaingrab on falcon, guaranteed. Falcon gets CG'd from 0 to 77. Once they get to 77% they can jump out of CG ONLY if they stop DI'ing. Most people at this time would just nair and than attempt to edgeguard. Instead- utilt nair. The utilt goes higher than grab, so the uthrow will actually combo into the utilt, and than the utilt will combo into your nair. So in other words its an extra ~13%, bringing them to 90 before the nair hits. Now the nair knocks them out further and makes it easier to edgeguard as well.

Falcon can break free from a chainthrow much earlier than 77% if they DI up....

 

[Samochan]

Falcon can break free from a chainthrow much earlier than 77% if they DI up....

Okay, so I think we need to have magus recheck those chaingrab percentages of his if this is true...

 

[JFox]

LOL, DI'ing up is extremely ineffective, not to mention its very rare that people do this regardless. If you really dont wanna take a chance, just do the utilt like 5% earlier, lol. Its still the best way to finish the chaingrab.

For the record, I still don't think it's necessary. In order to jump out at 77% you have to be really accurate and begin the jump as soon as hitlag (or throw lag in this case) ends. I don't think upward DI even matters TBH.

 

[XIF]

My thoughts on why Peach is falling behind in the metagame.

 

[GA Peach]

10smiles

 

[XIF]

My thoughts on why Peach is falling behind in the metagame.

This Guy:

 

[GA Peach]

I think she's just limited by the fact that she's really slow.

2nd best post in this thread outside of XIF's fox picture

 

[Mike G]

Peach is very slow, I agree.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

everyone should use more toad

 

[Jihnsius]

I think people should look into Pink Shinobi's Peach more. I honestly believe he's the best Peach in the world right now, and raising the bar quite a bit. Mind, the technical skill is a bit lacking (and for some reason he refuses to chaingrab,) but the metagame of his Peach is beyond comparison.

I don't think Peach is missing out too much on the pressure of technicality, isn't she (maybe second to Fox, though,) the most studied character in terms of frames, cancels, shieldpressure, traps, etc? Hell, she's the only one in the game with a -true- infinite (aside from Fox's wallshine) that can't be smash DId out of, and that's only what's been found so far. Why doesn't anyone practice the limitations of the human hand being able to perform the nair slap cancel infinite? Of course theoretically it's impossible, but who has actually spent a prolonged period of time trying?

 

[kirbstir]

Fox isn't so bad.

Nair slap is an infinite? How's that?

Also, why wouldn't anybody chaingrab? It's not smart to limit yourself of options.

 

[JFox]

Peach doesn't have any infinites. An infinite is a move you can keep hitting someone with without their being able to escape, such as wobbling. If you are thinking of that nair jab video using AR, that's not an infinite. Link, the character being combo'd, was actually smash DI'ing the wrong way in order to stay in the "combo". In addition, you cannot connect a nair jab once the opponent gets to higher percents, and even if you could- jabs dont combo into nair, even if done frame perfect. That whole video is one big pseudo combo. Peach has no infinites, not by a long shot.

Peach has a great pillar in that when done correctly it can't ever be punished (nair only, no slaps), but it can be rolled out of. Maybe this is what you were thinking of?

Pink shinobi should definitely start chaingrabbing if he wants to stay competitive. Good chaingrabs should in theory take you opponents stock 99% of the time, so I dont really so why you would choose to let such powerful tool out of your grasp.

 

[Jihnsius]

Also, where's the logic in DIing up out of Peach's up-throw? DI only applies to perpendiculars of knockback, and up-throw is straight up. Holding up would effectively do the same thing as not holding any direction.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

jab-nair is NOT an infinite
Nair takes 4 frames to come out
shine takes one
:/
and DI'ng up would give you time to jump out
or attack them

 

[Kouryuu]

Pink shinobi should definitely start chaingrabbing if he wants to stay competitive.

This made no sense lol.