Social Mr. Game & Watch Social - The Flat Zone

[_hunt]

ROBnWatch, I love your avatar!

 

[ROBnWatch]

ROBnWatch, I love your avatar!

Thanks! Found it online. Went along perfect with my avatar so I figured, why not?

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Keep doing you then, and let me know when/if you place in tournaments anytime soon. I'll keep taking top 5 in the meantime.

 

[X3I]

If you take top 5 by playing like that, I guess I can now confirm G&W is not a low tier.

 

[FrameImperfect]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ-X-ifNQ8w

 

[Kofu]

Also, I wanted to show you guys the little tiny drop of potential I managed to squeeze out of G&W over the weekend.

http://www.twitch.tv/jolteontrainer/c/5638965

I agree with X3l in that there was too much Smash move use, but aside from that your playstyle is reasonably close to my own. I wasn't very impressed with the Greninja either so lol. I like your spacing with FSmash, I should learn to use it better.

Regarding his kill power I have a theory that they toned it down because Judge 9 and Oil Panic are really strong. No, really, I think that might be why his smashes are weaker.

 

[X3I]

The guy I play the most with is a Samus and Fox player, and I agree with you on the Judge 9 and Oil Panic.

Basically: his Fox is free because I can land a Judge on him on each D-Throw and generally on each juggle, while if I mind him well I can take a free kill on his Samus because I bucketted a Neutral B (and Samus can't play against G&W without it).

He is good, but I two stocks him a lot because of that (and the fact that Fox has one of the easier recovery to gimp).

In my opinion, G&W 7-3 Fox, by the way. The match-up is ridiculous.

 

[Kofu]

Missiles are generally more effective at controlling the stage than the Charge Shot is, but yeah, Samus needs to play really carefully to not let us get a bucket of Charge Beam. OHKO plz

I really don't feel G&W beats Fox, at least not that hard; it's probably even (or in Fox's favor tbh, but not my much if it is). He doesn't have to use his lasers, and his ability to rush us down is kind of scary. But yeah, we can juggle him and mess with his recovery for days.

I think he probably beats us onstage, which is where most of the battle will take place. Mind elaborating a little more why it's so strongly in our favor?

 

[X3I]

You can zone him with max-range Bair safely, Dair wins everything in air-to-air, Usmash is broken, Ftilt and Jab prevents him from approaching, free juggle, free Judgement, free edgeguard, Nair to Dsmash is free...

Damages are built quickly and it's easy to kill him (either by a smash or by a good edgeguard).

It's the match-up I know the best (while this Fox knows G&W's match-up well too), and it really seems 7-3.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Wow the salt in this thread is real.

Can we talk about how bair is one of the craziest hitboxes in the game?

 

[Kofu]

Yeah it's really big and actually beats out a lot of things. It's probably why they nerfed the damage on it, lol. The cooldown time is pretty poor, though.

 

[X3I]

You're right !
The additional landing hit and the hitstun/knockback also make it safe.

 

[TheMiSP]

Though I'd appreciate if it could eat shields a bit more and if the landing lag wasn't so bad.

But I like it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sure, it has landing lag, but think about how broken it would be if it auto cancelled in short hops. The landing lag on it is not that bad though honestly.

I'm going to start calling it "Fort Knox" because it's impenetrable.

 

[Kofu]

The key to making it safe on shields in my experience is to fast fall it. The landing hit then shieldpokes.

I'm just glad people can't SDI it for free in this game, lol.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Even if you don't shield poke them, the sustained multi-hitting hitbox prevents them from rolling behind you or dashing out of shield to punish, and you should be able to roll away, spotdodge, or turn around jab their out of shield punish. Shield grabbing it is impossible; even Link doesn't have range to grab it if spaced properly.

 

[meleebrawler]

The biggest source of complaints levelled towards G&W
is that he dies earlier than his opponents with raw power.

That probably was meant to be the case in Brawl, too, were
it not for Bucket Braking.

Jigglypuff is even lighter and while she does have some
very potent KO moves, most of them are hard to land (smashes)
or have huge drawbacks (Rest's 5-second endlag).

I feel as if G&W is a less extreme Jigglypuff; not as mobile
in the air but faster on the ground, both have a high-gamble KO
move (Rest always comes out but lags horribly, Judgement 9 doesn't
lag as much but is unreliable), slightly heavier, both use aerials
a lot in neutral but G&W uses longer disjoints while Jiggly uses her mobility
to stay safe, and both have strong gimping games when they cannot
land a straight KO.

 

[WindozeNT]

The biggest source of complaints levelled towards G&W
is that he dies earlier than his opponents with raw power.

That probably was meant to be the case in Brawl, too, were
it not for Bucket Braking.

Jigglypuff is even lighter and while she does have some
very potent KO moves, most of them are hard to land (smashes)
or have huge drawbacks (Rest's 5-second endlag).

I feel as if G&W is a less extreme Jigglypuff; not as mobile
in the air but faster on the ground, both have a high-gamble KO
move (Rest always comes out but lags horribly, Judgement 9 doesn't
lag as much but is unreliable), slightly heavier, both use aerials
a lot in neutral but G&W uses longer disjoints while Jiggly uses her mobility
to stay safe, and both have strong gimping games when they cannot
land a straight KO.

so Mr. Game & Watch is something of a concept clone of Jigglypuff?

 

[ChivalRuse]

The glass cannon concept isn't exactly limited to Puff.

 

[meleebrawler]

so Mr. Game & Watch is something of a concept clone of Jigglypuff?

How could he be when Jigglypuff was in Smash first?

I forgot to mention in that post that G&W has better smashes
compared to Jigglypuff.

It's just that they kinda have similar aspects to their playstyles:
bread and butter consisting of aerials, whereas the ground
is relegated to mix-ups, occasional hard punishes, and footsies
(super close combat).

Jiggly has the edge in the air game with her mobility in the air
giving her more options, as well as a kill move (Bair), whereas
G&W mostly just safely pokes the enemy.

But in turn, G&W does almost everything on the ground better
than Jiggly. Dash attack is way easier to land, though less powerful,
footsie tools (jab, f-tilt, heck even d-tilt) have more range as well as
his smashes, which all kill better, especially when sweetspotted.

@ ChivalRuse Yeah I know, there's Little Mac.

There's basically two kinds of glass cannon in Smash: one that gets
straight KOed more easily (Jiggly, G&W), the other that's not so light
but recovers badly (Little Mac, Doctor Mario).

 

[ChivalRuse]

In other words, both die at lower percents, but in different ways.

I wouldn't say that Doctor Mario is a glass cannon though. He's kind of just glass.

 

[WindozeNT]

How could he be when Jigglypuff was in Smash first?

I think you read my post backwards... I said G&W was a concept clone of Jigglypuff, not that Jiggypuff was a concept clone of G&W.

 

[meleebrawler]

In other words, both die at lower percents, but in different ways.

I wouldn't say that Doctor Mario is a glass cannon though. He's kind of just glass.

That would imply Doc has no power behind him, which
isn't true. He just has a hard time getting his game
going because of bad movement and range.

Unless your definition of glass cannon is "horrible **pe
in general unless you screw up".

 

[ChivalRuse]

Well, when I think of a "cannon" I usually am thinking about somebody with the KO power of Ike or Bowser.

 

[VDZ]

The biggest source of complaints levelled towards G&W
is that he dies earlier than his opponents with raw power.

That's only the people who played him since Brawl and never played Melee G&W. G&W is SUPPOSED to die early. He's just supposed to deal massive damage before dying early.

Jigglypuff is even lighter and while she does have some
very potent KO moves, most of them are hard to land (smashes)
or have huge drawbacks (Rest's 5-second endlag).

Due to Jigglypuff's high damage (read: priority), her finishers are FAR easier to land than G&W's. I personally wouldn't categorize Rest as a finisher, but rather as an Oil Panic-style move that punishes people for playing badly (see below). Furthermore, her B-air is a FAR better finisher than anything G&W has in SSB4 due to how quick, safe and effective it is.

I feel as if G&W is a less extreme Jigglypuff;

Which is the polar opposite of how things used to be. G&W used to be the extreme glass cannon while Jigglypuff is more well-rounded. Also, due to how easy G&W is to punish and their weights not being all that different, G&W still dies earlier than Jigglypuff in practice (assuming Jigglypuff doesn't get Rollout gimped* or killed in a similar manner).

not as mobile in the air but faster on the ground,

Strongly disagree. Jigglypuff may have a lot of jumps, but she is a lot slower in the air than G&W. G&W also has his up-B which allows him to recover from situations where Jigglypuff is just begging to get gimped and attack opponents in the air far faster than Jigglypuff can.

On the ground, G&W moves faster but Jigglypuff attacks A LOT faster.

both have a high-gamble KO move (Rest always comes out but lags horribly, Judgement 9 doesn't lag as much but is unreliable)

Rest is not a gamble move, and if you use it like that you're a fool. (Offense intended; you give Rest a bad name if you use it like that.) Rather, it is far more similar to Oil Panic; both make use of the opponent's predictability (finding the right timing for Rest, catching projectiles for G&W) and strike with precisely the right timing for an instant KO. The correct way to use Rest in SSB4 is to Short Hop -> Rest on opponents still stuck in endlag after using predictable slow moves. Like Oil Panic, its effectiveness varies strongly per character (smaller characters are far harder to hit) and good opponents won't give you a chance to use it. (By the way, non-KO Rest, when hit, is now safer to use than catching projectiles with Oil Panic. She wakes up quickly enough that the enemy's means of punishing her for it are limited; you'll get more harshly punished with Oil Panic's endlag than with the endlag for Rest when successful.)

* In SSB4, Rollout has become far more unsafe. If you hit an enemy while doing rollout in the air, you will enter an extreme helpless state in which you not only can't use any moves, you can't even move to the left or right, not even slightly. There is no way to cancel out of this, so if someone jumps towards an aerial rollout and it hits while away from the stage, Jigglypuff will just helplessly fall down until she dies. I'm not even sure if Jigglypuff grabs the ledge if close enough in this state.

 

[Kofu]

Oil Panic's biggest problem is the end lag when collecting levels one and two. That's why I theorize Efficient Panic might be better against characters like Fox or possibly Mega Man, where their projectiles aren't going to pack much of a punch even if you get a full bucket (obviously Mega Man's FSmash will but you're unlikely to grab it, he can play just fine without it). It loses its ability to kill, really, but becomes a fine counterattack/damage racker, since it does 9/10% minimum.

I wish that one of the Oil Panic customs turned it into a charge attack that would trip the opponents at lower levels of charge but deal knockback at higher levels. At least give us a custom that isn't worthless against 1/3 of the cast (and isn't really effective against another third).

 

[meleebrawler]

"Due to Jigglypuff's high damage (read: priority), her finishers are FAR easier to land than G&W's. I personally wouldn't categorize Rest as a finisher, but rather as an Oil Panic-style move that punishes people for playing badly (see below). Furthermore, her B-air is a FAR better finisher than anything G&W has in SSB4 due to how quick, safe and effective it is."

I know Bair exists; didn't you read my follow-up post?
But other than that, what good finishers does she have?
Her best smash is Usmash, and the opponent needs to really
mess up to get hit by her other smashes, which aren't as strong
as G&W's (when they hit right). And gimping isn't a real finisher.



"Which is the polar opposite of how things used to be. G&W used to be the extreme glass cannon while Jigglypuff is more well-rounded. Also, due to how easy G&W is to punish and their weights not being all that different, G&W still dies earlier than Jigglypuff in practice (assuming Jigglypuff doesn't get Rollout gimped* or killed in a similar manner)."

Hence why G&W needs to space and play defensively more;
he has disjoints on nearly all his moves for a reason.



"Strongly disagree. Jigglypuff may have a lot of jumps, but she is a lot slower in the air than G&W. G&W also has his up-B which allows him to recover from situations where Jigglypuff is just begging to get gimped and attack opponents in the air far faster than Jigglypuff can."

OK, G&W has better vertical movement. He may also
have better air top speed, but what makes Jiggly so good
in the air is her acceleration. This, coupled with sex kicks is how she stays so safe in the air.

 

[X3I]

There's no comparison to do between G&W and Jigglypuff... wtf guys ?

 

[ROBnWatch]

Why can't Christmas come sooner so I can test G&W out?

 

[X3I]

Ask Jesus ?

 

[lllp3lll]

New G&W player looking to main him, but having trouble.

I've been trying "EVADE POKE GIMP" but- What to do against stuff I cant bucket? I'm I just forced to go in.

Approach options?
Is SH RAR B-Air usefully anymore or Should I just Full hop my aerials?

Any frame data for him yet?
Is F-Air really safe on shield?
Anything else safe on shield?

Here's a video I found so to contribute:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnB__x_EPo4&list=UUpu15uRsvI2opP78cdslj3A

 

[X3I]

SHFF Nair is kinda safe, Bair is safe if max range and hard to punish if fastfalled (landing hit), Fair isn't safe on block, Uair is (you can fulljump Fair/Bair and use your Uair close to the ground, it works well).

 

[Kofu]

Dash Attack is a good option as well. Getting in to hurt the opponent can be tricky, so you gotta fake them out by doing stuff like empty low jumps or dash mixups.

FAir is probably only safe on shield with the strong hit at max range. BAir's relatively safe if you can get in the landing hit. And Up-B is great for escaping stuff.

 

[lllp3lll]

Thanks X3I and Kofu.
I think he's going to end up being a very good character. Up-B and Up-Smash out of shield seem mad good.

 

[meleebrawler]

Thanks X3I and Kofu.
I think he's going to end up being a very good character. Up-B and Up-Smash out of shield seem mad good.

And that's before you look at Heavy Trampoline...

 

[Deleted member]

I will admit, using G&W's windboxes can be pretty cool at times, especially if you use the d-tilt one on a recovering opponent. I could see it being extremely effective against characters like Lucario who have tons of landing lag after they've used their Up-B.

I've also noticed that N-air is great against large characters like Ganon and Bowser. You're pretty much guarantied about 13% damage if they get trapped in it.

 

[TheMiSP]

Might as well ask. My friends have adapted and started to air dodge out of my down throws, so I either fit in one nair, or none at all. Any tips? Do I have to bait like I do with counters?

Also while waiting for a For Fun match, I've noticed that the CPU G&W can jump away before I land a Judgement straight from a 0% down throw...

 

[Kofu]

Down throw combos seem to be character-dependent. For example, Fox can typically escape DThrow to NAir until around 30% because his fall speed is so fast. If they're starting to airdodge out, either bait the airdodge or try another attack. FAir and UAir are two good options, as is Fire when they start flying to high to hit with aerials.

I've found that the most consistent followups for DThrow at low percents are jab and UTilt. Most everything else is escapable. I'm honestly not sure if UTilt is confirmed on anyone, either, but jab seems to be good for everybody.

 

[X3I]

Use Judgement at 20-50% on Fox.

 

[Kofu]

I told you DTilt had a lot of potential.

It's a bit laggy on whiff but we should start using it more. It's quite handy.