Mission Briefing - The Samus Social

[Naggy]

i don't even know how to rising grapple. is there a tutorial video for it?

 

[Chevy]

Highest rising grapple goes like 1 and a half screw attacks. It'll be an option to avoid straight edge-hogs, and when you really need the extra distance. It's inputted by air-dodging upwards and then immediately inputting z-air, so Shield+Up->A. Like an aerial glide toss, but with your tether.

EDIT: Highest rising grapple is more like 2 screw attacks, it's pretty insane if you can master it.

 

[ES Lite]

Rising grapple? As in, the melee rising grapple that ends with your falling animation?
If so, I'd only use it as an extreme mix up/ mindgame. You generally don't want to force yourself into a falling animation onto the ground, especially in PM, where grounded edgeguards are pretty much on par with ledged edge guards.

In terms of the nerf, it doesn't really change or limit samus's recovery. She still has the same recovery, you just cant re-tether the ledge. All this means is you cant tether, cancel, tether (to avoid shine spikes), and you cant stall.
We can do without the stalling, in regards to the avoiding the shine spikes, or anything similar to punishing samus's tether (or any tether for that matter), it will now be a matter of being able to tether far enough so that when she swoops towards the wall of the stage, she is far enough below the character ledge stalling that they can't simply shine jump, ledge attack, instant ledge hop aerial, etc etc
This distance doesn't have to be anything drastic, though it is different depending on the matchup (fox can easily drop down far enough to shine spike you if he reacts).
In this instance, the best thing to do almost immediately after your tether animation finishes is to cancel the tether and b up.

Be aware that this is probably samus's best option from the hanging tether state; anything else will probably be too slow and are only situation dependent. Most of the options I've found from this state are:
-Cancel tether -> B-Up
-B-Down (hits the opponent)-> Dair/Nair (Works super well against bigger characters, as the distance you need to be relative to the ledge increases compared to other characters for this to work. Ex. Bowser, DK)
-B-Down -> Bomb jump -> B-Up (This is for stalling. I think this option is too risky to do any attack out of the bomb jump other than b-up, so naturally, all you're really doing is wasting time. Mindgame potential tho)
-B-Down -> Bomb jump -> Wall jump -> B reversal -> Cancel charge (Pretty similar to the option previously listed in terms of purpose. If you're really good with the b reversal cancel, samus will literally climb up the wall with the potential to wave land back onto the stage. VERY nice mixup and mindgame. Shooting a fully charged shot instead of a cancel will push samus a bit back and leave her susceptible to the animation's lag. Haven't really tested out this option but if you can make back onto the ledge with b-up, go for it)
-Cancel tether -> wall jump -> B reversal -> Cancel charge (What I just wrote up above, but with cancelling the tether instead of bomb jumping. Naturally you'd want to run this option rather than the other because of how fast you can do it. I haven't really tested this out at all though, so I'm not really sure how early you can walljump out of your tether. I'd imagine this option is superior to the last no matter the situation.)

Those are all the viable options from the tether I can think of right now. There could be more, but my advice would be to not look into it too much. Samus's b-up recovery by itself actually rivals the utility and ease of her tether.

 

[Chevy]

Rising grapple isn't something you should do unless you really need to, but it might be the only way to get back if you ever get hit out of your tether. There are distances that you can clear with this that you can't with anything else, most notably if you're facing backwards.

 

[KingChaos]

Gotcha. I figured this would be a last resort in coming back. As far as the tether cancel options go. It is 50/50 on what you should do. In my experience against good players canceling your tether into up b to punish them trying to force your jump will only work once. After that it is very risky because good people will make the adjustment and just roll to the stage expecting your up b and then you just fall to your death. Using that method and the wall jump method will be your best bet against high level opponents. If you just up b out of tether the novelty will run off very quickly then your ability to recover from a lot of situation will be hindered. Recovering from here on out will be all about mixing up your options. Our options are pretty vast compared to the other tether characters so we should be ok. Just be warned up b out of tether cancel can get you killed just as good as just pulling up if they see it coming.

 

[ES Lite]

I've never really had a problem with that... B-up is pretty safe, plus the punish potential is just about the same if you position your b-up to go up over the ledge. That's generally what you want to do anyways, since when you cancel the tether to b-up, you're aiming for your opponent, not the sweet spot. You're trying to trade your b-up with whatever they have up their sleeve.

 

[Chevy]

Up-B is super easy to ledge-hog if your opponent expects it. Mix-ups are going to be the name of the game moving forward.

 

[KingChaos]

It is very punishable against good players trust me. Also depending where you are when tether canceling into up b will sometimes only allow you to go just high enough to snap the ledge and not go over. Only the start up of screw atk is invincible the rest is subceptable to being spiked by people like ivysaur. However against fast fallers if you clip them on the way up with the up b just as you grab the ledge they will be in hit stun and you can hurry up and spike or b-air depending on the DI. I've gotten many good conversions on this on people like ZSS. I for one have learned to mix up recovering and going forward will probably opt for tether cancel--> double jump/bomb jump---> wall jump---> B-reverse---> up b. I'm pretty hopeful this will net me some good comebacks after people learn to avoid and punish tether cancel to screw atk.

 

[ES Lite]

Yeah, the second half of screw attack IS remarkably bad compared to the first...
Samus's recovery is probably a little over powered now, and even after this nerf, who says thats all the changes samus will see?
Recovery wise I don't think they'll buff anything but I'm hoping this nerf opens up a similar impacting buff for her

 

[Samuch]

Yeah, the second half of screw attack IS remarkably bad compared to the first...
Samus's recovery is probably a little over powered now, and even after this nerf, who says thats all the changes samus will see?
Recovery wise I don't think they'll buff anything but I'm hoping this nerf opens up a similar impacting buff for her

Besides her tether, is it really that OP? Even when bomb hopping, going up against someone who is comfortable at the edge is tough. Especially when they jump off and attack you while bomb hopping.

Her up-B seems to get out prioritized a lot and can be spiked pretty easily if they get in there at the right time.

 

[Chevy]

It's really overdone right now because with 3 Brawl tethers + Melee air dodge, as soon as you are in tether range you can air dodge->tether->drop->air dodge->tether->drop->air dodge->tether->drop->screw attack if necessary. You can essentially be completely intangible on your way back, rather than actually have to think about your options.

 

[ES Lite]

Besides her tether, is it really that OP? Even when bomb hopping, going up against someone who is comfortable at the edge is tough. Especially when they jump off and attack you while bomb hopping.

Her up-B seems to get out prioritized a lot and can be spiked pretty easily if they get in there at the right time.

OP in the sense that Samus can get back on the stage from pretty much anywhere..
Bomb jumping isn't even necessary half the time, simply pressing b down and moving forward will work.
If you are on the upper half of the ledge while recovering, you can shoot missiles (preferably homing) to fend off opponents who mindlessly jump at you. Bomb jumping at a safe distance can allow for this; even shooting two homing without bomb jumping will still allow samus to recover safely, provided you are recovering from above the stage.

She isn't intangible on the way back, it only seems that way if you happen to tether close enough. A good fox will shine spike a tether recovery every time unless you tether close enough to utilize invincibility.
Once a tether character begins to reel in their tether, they are vulnerable during that whole animation. From afar, It's slow, predictable, and easy to punish. If you are rendered to having to tether the ledge from a long distance, there isn't much you can do to reduce that tether distance. After this patch, the tether itself will essentially only be safe from that "invincibility" range.

 

[Chevy]

You're intangible during air-dodge, which you can cover the tether range with with repeated drop re-tethers.

 

[0RLY]

Even if you're intangible during an airdodge, you may be able to avoid the shine, but you won't be able to avoid the dj bair that will come afterwards. This is an extreme example because Fox is 2gud.

 

[Chevy]

I actually play with Silent Wolf just about every week, this has never happened to me. I get shine-spiked all the time(usually to return), but if I air-dodge smartly it's pretty impossible to stop.

 

[Waymas]

Yo guys, new Samus main haha, i would appreciate any help if possible ;3

 

[Litt]

Yeah, go read all previous threads and sort through the info, take what you find helpful and add it to your game

 

[Serris]

I went to GUTS 3 and got knocked out of the bracket just two wins shy of top 32. Oh well, better luck next time.

 

[pooch182]

Good stuff, Serris. Hopefully you got a lot of great practice/notes out of GUTS.

Is anybody going to Big House? I'm gonna be there, and I'd love to discuss Samus stuff/MM/party etc.

 

[pooch182]

Double post, but deal with it. How many of you have started implementing rising grapple into your gameplay?

I've started to experiment with being able to go super deep for edge guards on stages without walls, and if I'm facing away from the ledge, rising grapple still gets me safely to the stage, where a Screw Attack would have left me dead. It's definitely worth learning and implementing into your play, especially with 3.5 tether coming very soon.

 

[Naggy]

I've been messing around with it lately. You can get a pretty absurd boost out of it from the bottom of FD for instance and still make it back to the stage. Has anyone else tried using a different control scheme for missile tech?

I recently switched over to Z - Jump, R - Grab, X - Side taunt/footstool. It makes hylian low rider and full hop double missile much easier imo.

 

[Narpas_sword]

i have R as Special for easy missile tech.

 

[Naggy]

I experimented with R for different inputs, but the light press>hard press shenanigans throws me off too much.

 

[Chevy]

I just claw for tricky missile tech.

 

[Chevy]

Streaming some netplay at: http://www.twitch.tv/epeengaming

 

[TreK]

I got a couple noob questions because I'm trying to train Samus into being my 2nd :
What would you say are Samus's strengths and weaknesses ?
What are Samus' top 3 best, and worst matchups ?
Do you think Samus will receive major, or minor changes in the next update ?

And a slightly more specific one :
What is ice dtilt good for ? Besides putting stuff offstage, it doesn't seem to do much :C

 

[Chevy]

Strengths: amazing zoning and quick aerials to escape pressure, good edgeguarding, excellent survivability, hard to combo

Weaknesses: doesn't have an effective way to get down from juggles, poor combo game, dies off the top early(especially from killing throws)

From my experience:

Top 3 best matchups: Bowser, Peach, Ganondorf

Top 3 worst: Mewtwo, Rob, Toon Link

I foresee minor changes in the next update: hopefully ice mode gets rebalanced as it's completely centered around f-air right now.
Ice dtilt is still a crouch cancel option, I use it when I want a fire d-tilt and then I'm disappointed. It can gimp bad recoveries, but she has better options for that and it can't challenge sweetspots in the slightest.

 

[Yung Mei]

Chevy, next time i see you, you gotta show me how to do that missle cancel ****, i cant figure out how to do it at all qq

 

[Chevy]

Lol, make an effort to hit me up next GC, or come to EPG!

 

[Litt]

Chevy, next time i see you, you gotta show me how to do that missle cancel ****, i cant figure out how to do it at all qq

Not hard at all, just watch the missile tutorial online... use that thing in between those ears of yours

 

[Samuch]

Not hard at all, just watch the missile tutorial online... use that thing in between those ears of yours

You know, that's not the way you should treat folks. It's not like he was posting a bunch of fubar. It was a response to a specific person. You're full of good info, but you really tarnish these boards with your attitude sometimes, man...

You're the main reason I'm even afraid to ever join any conversations here.

Although, lately you haven't been too bad. So that's good.

 

[pooch182]

You know, that's not the way you should treat folks. It's not like he was posting a bunch of fubar. It was a response to a specific person. You're full of good info, but you really tarnish these boards with your attitude sometimes, man...

You're the main reason I'm even afraid to ever join any conversations here.

Although, lately you haven't been too bad. So that's good.

Barbie might be a little rough around the edges, but nobody should scare you from participating in discussion. Sure, we might poke fun at stuff, but, hopefully, we'll get you going in the right direction after all is said and done.

Barbie is a tad arrogant, but a lot of times he is right and he's definitely knowledgeable. Just because he's very blunt and a little snarky doesn't mean he isn't a great resource for these boards. Read past the garbage parts of his posts, and you can still get plenty of info and ideas.

 

[Litt]

Barbie might be a little rough around the edges, but nobody should scare you from participating in discussion. Sure, we might poke fun at stuff, but, hopefully, we'll get you going in the right direction after all is said and done.

Barbie is a tad arrogant, but a lot of times he is right and he's definitely knowledgeable. Just because he's very blunt and a little snarky doesn't mean he isn't a great resource for these boards. Read past the garbage parts of his posts, and you can still get plenty of info and ideas.

Someone doesnt need to show you how to do a missile cancel, read the concept, there are plenty of guides out there, and understand what inputs are needed, experiment until successful. Its not like this is 2007 anymore and all the info isnt out there and there are plenty of players here to give answers if you ask, my problem lies with being so lazy as to not even try or to believe a tech is that far over your head that you will have to wait for someone else to show you. NO one will hold your hand when you are in a match, man up and take a try to learn it yourself, at least put in a real effort, if you do that, I will have nothing negative to say about anyone. It just gets under my skin when people in general write something off as too difficult before even giving it a real go.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yo. I'm also trying to train up a secondary samus to cover Tink's bad matchups.

I've got all the variants of the missile cancel more or less down, including the b-reverse soft missile shenanigans on battlefield/PS2, and I'm wondering what I should focus on practicing next during my homework breaks.

Obviously, my basic melee tech (l-cancelling, WDs, wavelands, turnaround B, etc) is already pretty on point. SWD seems kinda like a waste of time, so other than the missile cancelling atm I'm just working on pivot ftilts ;o

 

[Chevy]

These are somewhat important:

Lowriders - ledge drop double jump smash missile regrab.
B-reverse charge shot cancel to tether
B-reverse wall climb : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDBQn-ChILY

 

[Frost | Odds]

These are somewhat important:
B-reverse charge shot cancel to tether
B-reverse wall climb : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDBQn-ChILY

These I can already do.

Lowriders - ledge drop double jump smash missile regrab.

You seem to have me confused with Phanna or Dark. :s

Thanks for the help anyway, guess I'll keep working on missiles/SWD/pivots

 

[Chevy]

You seem to have me confused with Phanna or Dark. :s

Thanks for the help anyway, guess I'll keep working on missiles/SWD/pivots

Honestly this one isn't that hard in PM. Practice it for like 5 minutes and you'll probably be somewhat consistent. It's frame perfect in Melee, but just from using it all the time in PM I can do it in Melee now, so not that hard.

 

[Kaysick]

http://projectmgame.com/en/news/project-m-3-5-changelist

Samus changes:

Spoiler

Smashes
-Forward Smash(Ice)
--2nd hit now freezes characters
-Up Smash(Fire)
--Size of hitboxes reduced.
--Final Hit knockback reduced. BKB 50 -> 45, KBG 155 -> 145.
--SDI multipliers normalized from 0.6x to 1.0x

Aerials
-Up Aerial
--Linking collision angles matched to Melee Samus. Now 90/361/80 from a dynamic linking angle.
--SDI Multipliers normalized from 0.75x to 1.0x
-Forward Aerial(Fire)
--Final Hit knockback matched to Melee Samus. BKB 40 -> 20.
-Forward Aerial(Ice)
--Auto Cancel window pushed back from frame 34 to frame 41. IASA pushed back from frame 42 to frame 55.

Specials
-Neutral Special (Charge Shot)
--Corrected a bug that allowed Samus to reverse her shot during the charge -> shoot transition.
-Down Special(Bomb)
--No longer hit through shields; Bombs detonate on shield immediately
--Bombs no longer hit twice (once for the bomb, once for the explosion). Only the explosion hits.
--Explosion collision is now 8 Damage, 6 Shield Damage, Angle 169, 10 BKB, 30 KBG

Others
-Tether
--Reduced tether ledge-grab length by 10 units (60 -> 50)
--Seeks ledge at frame 9 instead of frame 2.
--Tether Flub: Knockback reduced. BKB 60 -> 20, KBG 40 -> 30.
--Tether Tip: Knockback reduced. BKB 60 -> 40, KBG 60 -> 40.
--Tether Tip collision is active 2 frames sooner
--Landing lag corrected from 19 to 20 frames.
-Transition from Morph Ball -> Down Tilt -> crouch works properly now.
-Samus can properly drop through platforms during crouch -> crawl transition.

 

[Chevy]

Sad about tether drop removal, I really liked that tech. Ice f-smash freeze is neat, but the problem was never that you didn't get reward off the second hit, the move is still pretty unusable, but hopefully I can prove myself wrong. No ice d-tilt change is disappointing, maybe it'll be better with worse recoveries all around. The bump from rolling, dropping bomb and going back into crawl is still there, unfortunately.

That said, 3.5 feel great. I feel like I'm playing a more balanced character in a much smoother game. Wavedash feels better and longer, z-air is way less silly, and the tether feels a bit more natural on connect.

 

[Yung Mei]

Does this mean we cant backwards charge shot anymore