Mission Briefing - The Samus Social

[MVP]

Times up lets do this..

 

[br8k]

So did Samus's taunt-switch-to-ZSS-and-back make it into 3.0 or no?

And what DOES happen when Kirby eats Lucas wait this isn't the right place to ask that

 

[Serris]

Well, I'm not sure where to post now. I guess I'll just respond to what's in here.

So did Samus's taunt-switch-to-ZSS-and-back make it into 3.0 or no?

And what DOES happen when Kirby eats Lucas wait this isn't the right place to ask that

As far as I can tell, the taunt transformations aren't present in version 3.0. I've been fooling around in the lab, and it looks like Power Beam is better for comboing at low percents, while Ice Beam is better for mid to high.

EDIT: After playing some actual matches, don't bother using her homing missiles. They fire significantly slower than her super missiles, so you're basically punishing yourself for even using them. You can't short-hop fire them efficiently. That should be the first change on the list.

 

[dodgepong]

Yeah, I had no luck with the taunt transform, too. I seriously doubt they took it out, though. I'm guessing it's a new button combo. In fact, I heard rumors of a way to transform from ZSS back into Samus without the Smash Ball. But I don't know...I'll have to spend all night experimenting.

 

[cmart]

I'll confirm that Taunt transform both ways was removed. You can only transform between the two characters via Final Smash, at least until we've had time to properly assess the balance and design implications.

 

[Serris]

I'll confirm that Taunt transform both ways was removed. You can only transform between the two characters via Final Smash, at least until we've had time to properly assess the balance and design implications.

Any chance we can get the homing missiles sped up? They seem extremely redundant.

 

[cmart]

The missile fire timings match melee. If you mean the missiles themselves, Ice Homing missiles are notably faster, do more damage, and have more stun than fire homing.

 

[Serris]

No, I mean that ice super missiles are so fast that they're more useful than every other missile.

 

[Jagoffian]

I like that SH rising Uair to Missile is a thing now :D

 

[Vashimus]

My only complaint with Samus is that the boost ball crawl attack gets in the way of other things I usually do, specifically d-tilt and angled forward tilt. It's a bit annoying, but I'll try and work through it and be more precise.

 

[ph00tbag]

No, I mean that ice super missiles are so fast that they're more useful than every other missile.

Faster isn't always better.

Unless they've lowered the turn speed back to Melee levels (if they have then shame on them), then homing missiles ought to actually be legit now.

 

[prisoner]

so who thinks crawling is OP?

she's sooooo tiny... !

 

[Serris]

Samus is fun.

 

[kiw1]

is there a way to spawn with the ice thing?

 

[Vanguard]

There is currently no way to spawn with Ice Beam. You must side taunt to activate during the match.

 

[Serris]

I feel like there needs to be a way to tell which direction Samus is actually facing while she's in her morph ball. The boost ball limitations are seriously throwing me off.

 

[Nausicaa]

I'm just going to re-post this from a skype conversation. This is just some stuff I said about Samus.


Samus is kind of... trash... but still good because every character is good.
Less flexibility when Up-B ledge-cancelling from below platforms, sluggish un-charged charge shot upon landing/before landing, no auto-cancel FJ Zair, shorter grab that takes away the niche of that presence, stuff like that
I guess it's made up for by the DF-Tilt ball, and the ice U-Smash (the rest of the ice moves kind of suck, F-air is aight though), and the way Zair is good for other things
Otherwise, she'll struggle harder with Marth/Peach type characters more than ever in neutral, and if she ends up playing a defensive game against them, her recovery is gonna get thrashed
(others comment about sluggish feeling)
More than just being sluggish, she's sluggish in all the WORST spots that are very niche towards top-level play
Un-Charged charge shots specifically stand out, momentum after the Up-B apex for control too

Do one of those upon landing in Melee vs PM, and it's like WOW I'm not touching this in PM anymore, but there's nothing to save her in replacing it (maybe Zair over Shot, but that's feeble)
Her Grab threw me off hard, but at least it's decently quick, just so normalized that the established presence of it is meh. Now it's like... F-Tilt range, but can't be used against people landing out of F-Tilt range for free safe grabs when they can't hit you/are trying to avoid you or whatever
her niches were crushed for normalization

and as far as 'Normal, well-spread balanced characters' go, she doesn't really have what it takes to be a 'normal' character. No standard DD Grab, no zoning aerials, she's like a fortress of ground-game you can't approach/get pressured by, but the things that made her scary to be around got neutered. This isn't Melee Samus at all. It's fun though.
With a good vertical killer, and the SWD possibly being better at dealing with the return-melee-troubles given the absence of other things, and a reliable Z-Air otherwise, she should do fine. Everyone needs to be able to pivot unconditionally though.
So she's good, just way off Melee as a base... which is great! Just takes some getting used to for Melee-players (which is also great!)

Just figured it was worth mentioning in a more public place.

Edit: More stuff.

Her Grab came out quick enough in Melee, it doesn't really need 'speed' coming out, as it's not really a standard Grab anyway (think a faster ZSS tether rather than a slow Link tether), but the range it had made being anywhere NEAR her = you could get Grabbed. Presence of things like F-Tilt being around induces a lot of Shields when it looks like you'll Dash-Attack/WD Forward, or they whiff aerials at your WD Backs/Pivots in DDs, which basically land crazy-free Grabs, which Samus-play in Melee only started abusing accordingly in the last 2 years or so even
Yeah, vertical death UP haha.

Now her Grab is like... meh, that's cool.
But you shouldn't be missing with it anyway. It's really not hard to Grab a Peach landing for a FC that isn't on your Shield, or a Falcon SHing towards you, DJing away and trying to land with anything other than a WL back and Dash away, but your options to F-Tilt/D-Attack made that scary. It becomes a stale-mate camp-fest with Samus due to this, in PM, I don't know where the meta-game will go, but NOT Fortress-Play, it won't be anything like Melee. I'm talking about the niche things though, she's still a pivot-f-tilt champ, and has the same combos/system-base of play/tools. Just... the cherry on top was removed, and she got icing on the cake instead.

 

[Serris]

So, can we all agree that Ice Beam up-smash is the greatest thing since sliced bread?

 

[sharpman5000]

I'm no pro, never was, never will be...

But, I think that they could have done some things differently.

Giving Samus an actual short hop would do her wonders, in my opinion.

*edit*

ALSO

I don't really like the way her Screw Attack works... I feel like it's Brawl interpretation was better than 3.0's. Arial charging is nice, but I've noticed I can't move after firing a uncharged shot at all, and the endlag is just terrible. I think she should be able to fire two homing missiles in one full jump like in brawl as well.

But, that's just me.

 

[Fortress]

No, I mean that ice super missiles are so fast that they're more useful than every other missile.

I'm fine with them being slow. It's sort of like Wolf's blaster in that the deliberate speed of the projectile forces your opponent to have to bob and weave around the thing off-stage while you fire off super missiles and power beam blasts. You can, in a way, shepherd your opponent to a position that benefits you as a Samus player with a killer meteor in the dair and a nice kill option in the ice-fair.

I don't really like the way her Screw Attack works... I feel like it's Brawl interpretation was better than 3.0's. Arial charging is nice, but I've noticed I can't move after firing a uncharged shot at all, and the endlag is just terrible. I think she should be able to fire two homing missiles in one full jump like in brawl as well.

You can throw people off of the stage with a tether-cancelled screw attack, similar to how Link can do the same with his recovery, which can put your opponent into all sorts of bad positions. It's a good way to mix up recovery besides the ledge-hopped zair poke (which hits about a mile away).

As for charging the neutral B in the air, you can just cancel out of it by hitting R or L while falling, which lets you waveland, lay a bomb in the air, throw a zair, or do whatever. Most of the time, when I'm recovering from way up in the air off-stage, I just charge, cancel, and recover through Samus' tether.

Think of her neutral B charge like DK's charge; you can use it to force your opponent to come to you to attempt to prevent your charge, shifting the focus of the game right onto wherever you currently are. You can pull your opponent out and punish them for an attempt at a rush, or you can just use the charge you built up if they do not decide to interrupt you.

One thing I'd like to ask is if her dashing grab is faster, longer, and has less endlag than her standing grab. I feel as if I find myself pivot grabbing (or dash grabbing, at the very least), as I just feel less vulnerable.

 

[sharpman5000]

I'm fine with them being slow. It's sort of like Wolf's blaster in that the deliberate speed of the projectile forces your opponent to have to bob and weave around the thing off-stage while you fire off super missiles and power beam blasts. You can, in a way, shepherd your opponent to a position that benefits you as a Samus player with a killer meteor in the dair and a nice kill option in the ice-fair.



You can throw people off of the stage with a tether-cancelled screw attack, similar to how Link can do the same with his recovery, which can put your opponent into all sorts of bad positions. It's a good way to mix up recovery besides the ledge-hopped zair poke (which hits about a mile away).

As for charging the neutral B in the air, you can just cancel out of it by hitting R or L while falling, which lets you waveland, lay a bomb in the air, throw a zair, or do whatever. Most of the time, when I'm recovering from way up in the air off-stage, I just charge, cancel, and recover through Samus' tether.

Think of her neutral B charge like DK's charge; you can use it to force your opponent to come to you to attempt to prevent your charge, shifting the focus of the game right onto wherever you currently are. You can pull your opponent out and punish them for an attempt at a rush, or you can just use the charge you built up if they do not decide to interrupt you.

One thing I'd like to ask is if her dashing grab is faster, longer, and has less endlag than her standing grab. I feel as if I find myself pivot grabbing (or dash grabbing, at the very least), as I just feel less vulnerable.

Tether cancel? Hm... I didn't know about that. But, I just feel like almost every other character in the game is straightforward, and Samus is overly technical. Not that there's anything wrong with that, though. I'll have to study up on her a bit more so I can understand how to play her better, but still...

I just wish she had a short hop.

 

[Fortress]

Tether cancel? Hm... I didn't know about that. But, I just feel like almost every other character in the game is straightforward, and Samus is overly technical. Not that there's anything wrong with that, though. I'll have to study up on her a bit more so I can understand how to play her better, but still...

I just wish she had a short hop.

She's like Link and most zoners in general in (could Samus still be considered a zoner?) in that she's going to be pretty technical, but with a million options available to her for players who are willing to find them. As for the shorthop, it's partly out of tradition of her never really having one, and she has to have some kind of glaring disadvantages. Even still, she has options even with her SH height, like the missile-cancels that somebody had mentioned earlier.

 

[sharpman5000]

She's like Link and most zoners in general in (could Samus still be considered a zoner?) in that she's going to be pretty technical, but with a million options available to her for players who are willing to find them. As for the shorthop, it's partly out of tradition of her never really having one, and she has to have some kind of glaring disadvantages. Even still, she has options even with her SH height, like the missile-cancels that somebody had mentioned earlier.

Ah... For the sake of balancing. That I can understand.

I just have this dream of being super aggressive with her, but I can't really pull it off with my knowledge of her right yet. That's why I'm for the idea of her having a shorter sh. I just feel like her aerials are begging for it! ^^

 

[Vashimus]

Giving Samus an actual short hop would do her wonders, in my opinion.

It really isn't that much of an issue. You shouldn't jump with Samus unless it's necessary, she's very much a ground-based character. With how high the short-hop is on top of the slow falling speed, trying to pull off SFFL aerials or any short-hop maneuvers in general is much riskier compared to other characters due to how long it takes for her to get to the ground. And you're not Jiggs who can safely weave in-and-out of people's ranges. Luigi has the same problem to an extent.

 

[Fortress]

Luigi has the same problem to an extent.

It's not so much a problem as it is a lifestyle for the guy. Weegee does what Weegee wants, he don't give no ****s.

Ah... For the sake of balancing. That I can understand.

I just have this dream of being super aggressive with her, but I can't really pull it off with my knowledge of her right yet. That's why I'm for the idea of her having a shorter sh. I just feel like her aerials are begging for it! ^^

My group tells me that I play an aggressive Samus, and most of my play is done from the ground. Any sort of aerials I pull out are follow-ups to a plasma beam d-tilt, or shorthopped f-airs for a quirky approach now and again. Samus has some great aerials that string together really nicely, you just need to start most of that from the ground, in my experience.

 

[BryE]

Has anyone figured out that you could shoot a charged shot backwards without turning around?

While charging a shot, hold the opposite direction without triggering a roll (ease the control stick towards the direction, don't tap it). During the charge animation, fire the shot and immediately press the direction you were facing originally.

So basically if Samus is facing right: Charge and hold left > fire shot > immediately tap the right direction = Samus faces the right direction and her charged shot goes the opposite way.


I'm not sure if this is entirely new, but it can be useful for mindgames.

 

[Sarix]

I don't really think Samus needs a modified SH since I find it benefits her more than it harms her. Yes her SHFFL game is lackluster but Missile Cancelling on platforms and double aerial short hops make up for it imo. Her air game overall is good but she shouldn't take anyone head on with it. It's much better for following up in her combos and pressure.

 

[Serris]

The only area where I think she's really lacking is the inability to defend from below when she's airborne. Given the effectiveness of the rest of her toolset, it seems like a fair compromise. That said, ice beam f-air's animation seems a bit deceptive in terms of its actual reach. It doesn't hit as low as I thought it did.

 

[WizKick]

The only area where I think she's really lacking is the inability to defend from below when she's airborne. Given the effectiveness of the rest of her toolset, it seems like a fair compromise. That said, ice beam f-air's animation seems a bit deceptive in terms of its actual reach. It doesn't hit as low as I thought it did.

i always seem to miss by a hair forward. I"M used to ganon and his fair though, so I'm probably just losing to old habits.

 

[Sarix]

The only area where I think she's really lacking is the inability to defend from below when she's airborne. Given the effectiveness of the rest of her toolset, it seems like a fair compromise. That said, ice beam f-air's animation seems a bit deceptive in terms of its actual reach. It doesn't hit as low as I thought it did.

I agree with that Serris. Combined with her floatiness it greatly impacts her air-to-ground game which is why air approaches and jumping carelessly in general are bad ideas. I'm still trying to properly apply Fair as well with its odd reach. Dtlit is the main move I'm trying to find uses for since it sends them forward. On shield it's really good it seems since it has 8 hits of the little ice shards after the initial blast making for easy mix-ups.

 

[MonkUnit]

Samus is so much fun. I mained Samus in Melee and hated that she wasn't functional in PM for a long time. Due to that, I was kind of forced to use my secondary, Falcon, until now. I am so happy she's back and feels better than ever. =D

 

[Sarix]

Samus is so much fun. I mained Samus in Melee and hated that she wasn't functional in PM for a long time. Due to that, I was kind of forced to use my secondary, Falcon, until now. I am so happy she's back and feels better than ever. =D

My feelings exactly MonkUnit :D. I've been playing Link for a year now since Samus wasn't around and now I have to adjust to a character with very different physics now lol. Her Fire and Ice stance modes make her so interesting and remind me of Litchi from BB combined with how both are such ground-based characters.

 

[MonkUnit]

It also helps that I have taken such a long break from playing Melee Samus that it helps provide a fresh new perspective with Samus' new tools. =)

 

[Vashimus]

Feels nice to use Up Smash as a viable combo filler now.

 

[Sarix]

Having Usmash[f] as viable combo filler is very nice. I like how Utilt is now a better starter too.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

I think Samus is near perfect as she is, I wouldn't change anything.

I'm calling it now, I predict she will be top tier. My hype is barely controllable.

 

[Serris]

If you're playing Samus, I have one piece of advice for you:

ALWAYS BAN NORFAIR.

 

[Fortress]

If you're playing Samus, I have one piece of advice for you:

ALWAYS BAN NORFAIR.

More like Nofair.

 

[sharpman5000]

If you're playing Samus, I have one piece of advice for you:

ALWAYS BAN NORFAIR.

Why? Is that stage no good for her?

 

[MVP]

does anyone else besides me hate yoshi's story (brawl)? cause i hate playing on that stage with her