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Meta Knight Officially Banned!

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El Duderino

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The sad thing is when you have to ban a character, it becomes a stigma the community can never truly wash its hands of.
So? We live and we learn and we move on.
Sure, people will move on. The question though is what to next? Banning MK saves a portion of the community from continuing on a downward spiral while splintering the rest. The principle of it can turn away new and seasoned players alike, as well any hopes people have of getting Nintendo on board with the competitive scene.

That is nothing to go parading in the streets about, especially with how divided the community already is. It may be the necessary choice, but it is a very sad reality it had to come to this. That is all.
 

Smooth Criminal

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Sure, people will move on. The question though is what to next? Banning MK saves a portion of the community from continuing on a downward spiral while splintering the rest. The principle of it can turn away new and seasoned players alike, as well any hopes people have of getting Nintendo on board with the competitive scene.

That is nothing to go parading in the streets about, especially with how divided the community already is. It may be the necessary choice, but it is a very sad reality it had to come to this. That is all.
I couldn't have said it any better than this, at least where the aftermath of the MK ban is concerned. I applaud your eloquence, Duderino.

I would also like to say that I can believe Ran when he says that he's combed through this thread's every post. I may not agree with his role or his decision, but I will not cast his sincerity in doubt.

Smooth Criminal
 

Bees!

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It's magical.
Aww Peach why no nAir? or sdi or di for that matter. How sad. In the same regard I could show you an SSF4: AE video of a person not teching any throws and getting thrown over and over again until KO. Doesn't mean the game is gay, just that a person sucks at using a technique that allows them to avoid such tactics. <.<
 

El Duderino

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Brawl is amazing without MK.
It's also not exactly tried and true Brawl anymore. The game gets enough slack for having players feel the need to Mod it to meet their expectations. Adding big arbitrary and imposing rules doesn't exactly help its case either.

It may be necessary for Brawl's meta game to move forward, but it sure does feel like a tumor on the franchise as a whole.
 

Vinylic.

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Aww Peach why no nAir? or sdi or di for that matter. How sad. In the same regard I could show you an AE video of a person not teching any throws and getting thrown over and over again until KO. Doesn't mean the game is gay, just that a person sucks at using a technique that allows them to avoid such tactics. <.<
Well we're talking about mk being banned so, just pm/vm me for it.

On the other hand...

Doesn't mean the game is gay, just that a person sucks at using a technique that allows them to avoid such tactics. <.<
 

Eddie G

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This new metagame is going to be amazing.

Those of you worried about chaingrab-heavy matchups, guess what...you can actually counterpick less conventional stages that would help to remedy that issue without worrying about a possible opponent switch to MK now. Imagine that!
 

Bees!

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It's also not exactly tried and true Brawl anymore. The game gets enough slack for having players feel the need to Mod it to meet their expectations. Adding big arbitrary and imposing rules doesn't exactly help its case either.

It may be necessary for Brawl's meta game to move forward, but it sure does feel like a tumor for the franchise as a whole.
That is a good point however everyone uses other games and gaming communities as a standard. Their games are much different. For one, their game creators actually care about what the competitive scene of the game and what the competitive scene wants. Partly why those games get so many balance patches. Since obviously we take on ourselves to be the competitive scene for a noncompetitive game then it is on us to act where a normal scene would just wait until the company releases a patch that would nerf the character. Just the way I see it anyways.
 

-Ran

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We set a precedent here for future Smash games with this ban. I hope that we made the right choice and that in future games situations where a bannable character can be dealt with swiftly. I also hope that the community will continue to mature and learn how to craft more self aware rule-sets and metrics to determine what is deemed as an issue in the metagame. If we made the wrong choice, this means that a character that is worse than Meta knight in a new Smash game might never be banned.
 

Vinylic.

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We set a precedent here for future Smash games with this ban. I hope that we made the right choice and that in future games situations where a bannable character can be dealt with swiftly. I also hope that the community will continue to mature and learn how to craft more self aware rule-sets and metrics to determine what is deemed as an issue in the metagame. If we made the wrong choice, this means that a character that is worse than Meta knight in a new Smash game might never be banned.


Tournies (not apex) will be quite as better than before. Expecting MLG to respond.
 

Alien Vision

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We set a precedent here for future Smash games with this ban. I hope that we made the right choice and that in future games situations where a bannable character can be dealt with swiftly. I also hope that the community will continue to mature and learn how to craft more self aware rule-sets and metrics to determine what is deemed as an issue in the metagame. If we made the wrong choice, this means that a character that is worse than Meta knight in a new Smash game might never be banned.
I'm willing to say that you guys definately made the right decision. MK might of been part of the game, but he wasn't allowing the game to express it's wholesome value, which means..

MK was the tumor-- that we've removed like a boss!
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Nobody said europe was better than the states other than the obvious trolls.
We ( japan as well ) do have a better rule set though
If we are playing competitively, shouldn't keep everything we can legal and remove what we have to come first?

Why objectively are we removing Brinstar and Cruise for example? It can't be just, it's gay, does a character(s) have a huge win % on this stage? Is there a specific infinite, glitch or tactic that is a, 'Do it, the counter that is meh, or you lose?"

These are the things I look for when I see if a stage should be removed, it's why I am firmly against having Norfair legal again. Because I know there is a do it or you lose tactic on this stage, and seen it.

Stage list is the only main difference I am seeing that would make the rulesets fluctuate.



I can't believe you have a red name. How can you fall for such simple posts. Just... :l

:052:
I'm clarifying either way.
 

SmashChu

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Well there's lots of reason why that is.. because we dug ourselves our own holes especially with that whole Yellow card business.. it's only been the negative that got brought out to the other fighting community. The main fault for this is obviously the players. I mean sure it's fun to be an underground tournament scene and we can do whatever the hell we want.. but it's also a lot better to be able to grow as a person and as players to show that we can do more. That means putting yourself out there and show that you care about your game.. examples as a top player, helping lower skilled players with guides, making videos.. you know these kinds of things, make blogs.. etc. You name it.

I found it really stupid when I heard that top players do not have any responsibility whatsoever and all they need to do is play the game and not care about anyone else. And obviously there's some players like that... =/ When you are in the spotlight, then everyone wants to see you do good things like being a rolemodel for them, inspire them with stuff. =P I'm not sure what else to say as examples.. lol.
The MLG thing is one of many situation. If we want to find what went wrong with competitive Smash, we have to go all the way to the Melee days where the problem really started. Which let's me segway into this.......

You asked me earlier why is Brawl going backwards. I touched on this, but the big thing is why it is going forward. It got kicked out of MLG (which I am happy you see that the players messed up. You can not believe how annoying it is to hear people say pot splitting doesn't hurt the game and is totally fine). It got kicked out of EVO before. It is also hated by EVERYONE. Every problem stems back to the competitive community. How is it going backwards? Rather than get their stuff straight, they ban Meta-Knight. Now they went from joke to TROLOLO.

Let's talk about Meta-Knight. Here is the thing. You ban characters when they are broken. Borken is when there is no other reason to chose that characters. Which I'm sure people will agree with in this thread. But at the same time, we characters like Snake, Diddy and Falco who still do well. In the sake vein, we have characters like Olimar, Yoshi and Sonic that beat Meta-Knight. So it's obvious he's not broken. But I'm sure SOMEONE wiill bring up Akuma from SF2, which proves my point. Akuma was a boss character who was made to be broken. He has air fireballs that more characters can't deal with, invincibility frames and can't be dizzied. Meta-Knight isn't even close to that. The Meta-Knight problem has more to do with players being bad and not adapting rather than him being good. He is still good, but these players are here whining that they lost to a decent Meta-Knight rather than learn the match-up. You know why Yun doesn't just **** in SSF4 AE despite him being really good. People learned the match-up and make sure not to lose to him. That's what you do as a character.

Characters are banned when they are broken. But we have some here who think........
If tournaments get more fair and diverse, it was.
That's NOT the point of a ban. Let's look at marvel vs Capcom 2, a game that is super broken. Did you know there are characters who just **** and others who are garbage. Did you know what they did with these retardily overpowered characters? Did they ban them. Nope. They just played the game. The point isn't to try and make the game perfect. It never will be. There will be characters who are weaker and some who are stronger. Heck, because they adapted, Sentinal became stronger and Cable kind of loss favor. There was meta-game movement. That wont happen if you just ban a character.

And I'm not even taking into account the fact that you guys turn off everything. The game is going to be broken because most of the stages are turned off, you play 1v1 and items are off (especially Smash Balls). let's not forget the Sudden Death rules that pretty much make stalling viable. The game is never going to be balanced because you guys are not playing the same game we are. Thing like Smash Balls hurt Meta-Knight because his isn't that good. Captain Falcon, Ike, Marth, Toon Link and Link all have similar FS and Meta-Knight's just doesn't match up. All are very dodge able and require one hit. Let's also not forget planking become less viable with items because map control becomes more important. And while I'm at it, while people complain Meta-Knight and planking, note that anyone can do it. Including Jigglypuff. Who can do it in Melee.

I can go on and on. What i was hoping is the community would realize they are going no where and try to reorganize themselves and make the game better. Maybe actual do testing for things or advance the meta-game or change the rules. Instead they ban Meta-Knight because they are too chilish to admit they just aren't goo enough to beat him. He's beatable. I've seen it happen. Just do one is willing to get good.
 

El Duderino

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That is a good point however everyone uses other games and gaming communities as a standard. Their games are much different. For one, their game creators actually care about what the competitive scene of the game and what the competitive scene wants. Partly why those games get so many balance patches. Since obviously we take on ourselves to be the competitive scene for a noncompetitive game then it is on us to act where a normal scene would just wait until the company releases a patch that would nerf the character. Just the way I see it anyways.
I'm not talking about other fighting games. I'm talking about what happens in this community. While patching the character however is well within our means, too many people strongly oppose artificially altering the game. The real irony here is banning a character is doing exactly that, just by different means.
 

Alien Vision

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The unbalanced bias train is still rolling.

SmashChu, ''The Meta-Knight problem has more to do with players being bad and not adapting rather than him being good.''

MK is utterly, indubatably, truly, unequivocally BROKEN. He was put in his own tier, known as God Tier, for a blatant reason..
 
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Clearly, comparing ST Akuma to Metaknight is not a viable comparison. Akuma wins every match up for free, so the SF community bans him.

Metaknight wins every match up for free, and we say he can grab the ledge less, can't fly under the stage, and can't "stall".

Clearly not viable. Because their community wouldn't entertain the thought of air fireball limits or "all-rushdown, no throws" clauses for a second.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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I'm not talking about other fighting games. I'm talking about what happens in this community. While patching the character however is well within our means, too many people strongly oppose artificially altering the game. The real irony here is banning is a character is doing exactly that, just by different means.
There's a few problems you fail to realize here: Not everybody can setup their Wii or want to use hacks, which are, by the way, ILLEGAL. Banning a character in their own tournaments? Completely legal on all grounds. But here's another thing you conveniently forget too; Brawl cannot be patched because it wasn't programmed that way. If it could, do you honestly think that there wouldn't be patches to improve the game from Sakurai or the developers? At all? Unfortunately, that can't happen.

Thus, we have two choices: A Legal or an Illegal route. I don't know about you, but why is there a problem with a legal route, I may ask? Especially when the character is clearly overpowered overall. Nobody has won more tournaments than that one character. Just about every doubles tournament sees a Metaknight too. It's either play Metaknight, or you're most likely to lose. And that's a good metagame? Really?

There's a time when to put a character like him to rest. He had his reign, and it's over. That's just how life is. Are you forgetting that the metagame pretty much revolves around one exact guy? That's pretty one-sided. It's called doing what any competitive game has ever done, ripping the problem in the bud when it's become way too much.
 

Alien Vision

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There's a few problems you fail to realize here: Not everybody can setup their Wii or want to use hacks, which are, by the way, ILLEGAL. Banning a character in their own tournaments? Completely legal on all grounds. But here's another thing you conveniently forget too; Brawl cannot be patched because it wasn't programmed that way. If it could, do you honestly think that there wouldn't be patches to improve the game from Sakurai or the developers? At all? Unfortunately, that can't happen.

Thus, we have two choices: A Legal or an Illegal route. I don't know about you, but why is there a problem with a legal route, I may ask? Especially when the character is clearly overpowered overall. Nobody has won more tournaments than that one character. Just about every doubles tournament sees a Metaknight too. It's either play Metaknight, or you're most likely to lose. And that's a good metagame? Really?

There's a time when to put a character like him to rest. He had his reign, and it's over. That's just how life is. Are you forgetting that the metagame pretty much revolves around one exact guy? That's pretty one-sided. It's called doing what any competitive game has ever done, ripping the problem in the bud when it's become way too much.
You forgot the most basic response: MK being banned affects only MK and everything that had to do with MK.

Banning stages affects every character (maybe not every..) in the game.

I agree with the rest. :D
 

FoxBlaze71

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Not just MK.

People who had bad MU's against characters like Snake will now suffer as well.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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^^ True point. But that also means a lot of new stuff can happen. A new metagame, a new style of play. Anything can happen. We have 41 playable characters after all. That's more than enough difference to work with.

^ Like I said, new stuff will happen accordingly.
 

Alien Vision

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Not just MK.

People who had bad MU's against characters like Snake will now suffer as well.
I thought there were already LOTS, and LOTS of Snakes.

Are there any other characters that are affected negatively since they'll be more popular?
 

El Duderino

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There's a few problems you fail to realize here: Not everybody can setup their Wii or want to use hacks, which are, by the way, ILLEGAL.
It's not hard, illegal, or anything Nintendo will press charges for. Besides, not everyone wants to ban Meta Knight either :rolleyes:.


Brawl cannot be patched because it wasn't programmed that way.
Um, have you been living under a rock?

Are you forgetting that the metagame pretty much revolves around one exact guy?
Nope, my point is the actually rule set is now artificially altering the game more than a patch would. It's a bit hypocritical to be pro-ban, and anti-patch if the argument comes down to staying true to the original game.
 

Bees!

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I'm not talking about other fighting games. I'm talking about what happens in this community. While patching the character however is well within our means, too many people strongly oppose artificially altering the game. The real irony here is banning a character is doing exactly that, just by different means.
My point was just that, us altering the game is perfectly within our rights. For the reasons I stated previously. Not as much to counter your point. It is just that often I run into people using the argument of what other fighting game communities do. If we could find a way to alter the game to nerf a few simple things with MK. (Luttle Shoop mainly) then it would probably be better. However as we have seen with the surgical games(B-, B+, P:M) They all are great but aren't noticed nearly as much as Vanilla. So banning MK would probably be the best for the community when factoring in the lack of popularity of the altered versions.
 

Alien Vision

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@El Du
MK was still a massive tumor. You got it backwards. MK = Tumor not MK being gone = Tumor
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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It's not hard, illegal, or anything Nintendo will press charges for. Besides, not everyone wants to ban Meta Knight either :rolleyes:.
Yeah, hacking your system to hack your game is illegal. Or didn't you actually know, hmm? And 75% of the community is quite a lot, now isn't it? Stop acting like this doesn't have a long time coming. Also, read it carefully. It's talking about fan videos, not HACKING. Stop quoting something that has no bearing here. Hacking a console is always illegal, and it should always be. Whether offline or not. None of your link changed that. You do know the difference between a fan video and a fan fiction than people hacking their system to screw with the insides. Also, they're talking using the ideas of the characters and their personality, not hacking the insides of a game or console. Intellectual properties, not physical properties.

Some of us actually agree with decisions when they make sense. And what makes you think the hacking is still not illegal? It still is, despite what you may wish to believe. Some of us would rather prefer not to do illegal activities, especially when we shouldn't have to fix mistakes in the game.

Nope, my point is only we a point where the actually rule set is now artificially altering the game more than a patch would. It's a bit hypocritical to be pro-ban, and anti-patch if the argument comes down to staying true to the original game.
Pal, we make tournaments with RULES. What you're talking about is casual play. Also, how do you know what "true" to the game is. Also, patches aren't any truer to the game anyway. Do you have a point at all? I can't honestly tell. Once again, it's called taking a legal route. Something that's fine to do.
 

FoxBlaze71

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I thought there were already LOTS, and LOTS of Snakes.

Are there any other characters that are affected negatively since they'll be more popular?
Well, Snake is a feared MU for lots of low tiers ( i.e. Ike ).

And it's simply that there will now be more than lots and lots. There will be countless high tiers spawning now.
 

El Duderino

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@El Du
MK was still a massive tumor. You got it backwards. MK = Tumor not MK being gone = Tumor
He is a massive brain tumor that when removed takes away the freedom of choice. Either way, it's all going down hill unless we can do some reconstructive brain surgery. ;)
 

Ralph Cecil

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LOL Snake doesn't wreck anyone in low tier. 60:40 maybe, but not bad enough to hurt a charcter from rising due to the lack of MK.

EDIT:Also Ike is mid tier yo. =D

DOUBLE EDIT: @El Duderino Really? Taking MK away takes away freedom of choice, but with MK around everyone chooses MK lol.
 
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