Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[EnhaloTricks]

So I know pummels affect the stale move queue. But do subsequent pummels? For instance, can you get 5 pummels in a row in the stale move queue or is it only the first pummel that gets stored?

 

[DanGR]

Does there exist a compendium of footstool "hurtboxes," or general rules of thumb for how far they extend down each character's body?

 

[Shaya]

Just a really quick dumb question I have about shield stun. I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.

Is the formula also affected by the 1.05x freshness bonus and stale move negotiation? Dr. Mario's back-air would do 10 frames of stun instead of 9 if that's the case which would be really nice.

Yes

 

[Beowulf]

This might already be well known, but I'm too lazy to look it up. I've discovered a technique that lets you cancel a dash into a neutral special if you input special while simultaneously tapping the C-stick up, left or right. For this to work the C-stick has to be set to attack, and it will even make certain characters slide a short distance in the direction in which the C-stick was tapped. It is also possible to reverse the direction you're facing, giving four different variations of the technique. I haven't had the time to test it very thoroughly yet, but I've been able to pull it off with every character except Shulk. Additionally, the following characters appear to have notable sliding distance, Marth's and Lucina's being the longest:

 

[Shaya]

This is known for a while.
It's cool though, isn't it? :D

You can do it in the air too for some cool shenanigans

 

[HimaBook]

Just a really quick dumb question I have about shield stun. I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to ask.
Is the formula also affected by the 1.05x freshness bonus and stale move negotiation? Dr. Mario's back-air would do 10 frames of stun instead of 9 if that's the case which would be really nice.

As @Shaya said, shield stun is affected by stale. But we should note that the formula might not be perfect especially in the case of decimal damage.As far as I know,1)the formula was developed mainly by moves of whole number damage and 2)it's said to be "dmg/1.75 +2" or "dmg/1.72 +2"(Though both fomula output 10F shield stun about Dr.mario's fresh Bair,what I want to say is the formula can be wrong). So especially when we calculate by decimal damage,we should take note.

 

[drafix570]

Hi. I’m DRAFIX, Japanese player. (Sorry for my poor English)
These character’s stale is refreshed only once by a sequence of grab attacks.
(Enough interval allow every time refreshing, but good interval is uncommon)

Peach, Yoshi, Rosalina, BowserJR, Donkey, Diddy, Mac, Link, ToonLink, Samus, ZSS, Pit, Palutena, Marth, Ike, Kirby, DDD, Fox, Falco, Pikachu, Charizard, Lucario, Jigglypuff, R.O.B., Ness, CF, DarkPit, Lucina, Pac-man, Sonic, Mewtwo, Lucas, Roy, Ryu, Corrin

 

[Meshima]

stale multiplier = 1-Σ(sn/100)
s1=8.000, s2=7.605, s3=6.776, s4=6.033, s5=5.271, s6=4.437, s7=3.788, s8=2.943, s9=2.208
n is the position in the queue occupied by the move being used.
If you haven't any decay, stale multiplier is 1.05 instead of 1.

example:
If the move being used occupies the 3, 5, 6 and 8 positions in the queue, then stale multiplier is 1-(6.776+5.271+4.437+2.943)/100=0.8057

I found accurate values in fighter_param_etc. With @Sammi Husky's param editer, these are listed in Group[3].
S1=8.000, S2=7.594, S3=6.782, S4=6.028, S5=5.274, S6=4.462, S7=3.766, S8=2.954, S9=2.200.

 

[Pazx]

Interesting question.
Testing method:

Spoiler

To test this I set up a custom stage with a flat base and slightly slanted platform above it that went the length of the base. I then went into training mode and made the cpu a Falco, put Falco below standing on the base, moved player 1 up top, picked a spot and spawned a banana, then moved Falco directly beneath it. I then had Falco do a FH buffered Nair and, using frame skipping techniques, I counted the amount of Nair frames that came out before the banana was caught. By moving player 1 slightly each time before I spawned the banana, I could slowly adjust the amount of Nair frames that came out before the banana was caught until the buffered Nair no longer caught the banana. The furthest it got was to the point that I was catching the banana on frame 5 of the Nair. I then tested it for Falco's other aerials and for airdodge and got the same result. I then did the same thing with Diddy; I wasn't about to test all characters, but I figured I should check to see if there are any differences with an item specialist character, and I got the same results.

There's a 5 frame window. Aerials and airdodge will catch items on frames 1 to 5.

Did you happen to you work out what the window is to z-catch an item without airdodging? I assume it's not the full 5 frames, but it could be dependent on how long you hold the button for I suppose.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Did you happen to you work out what the window is to z-catch an item without airdodging? I assume it's not the full 5 frames, but it could be dependent on how long you hold the button for I suppose.

It has nothing to do with how long you hold the grab button. You just need to be in range of catching the item on the first frame. It's a 1 frame window. If you're a frame too early hitting grab you'll get the first frame of airdodge followed by catching the item on the second frame with airdodge; of course, if you're a character with a Zair, you'll get the first frame of Zair instead followed by not catching the item at all.

Edit: Of course, it's kind of weird to talk about it in terms of frames though, simply because it's not really a '1 frame window' when the item is e.g. maintaining a position within your catching area and all you have to do is hit grab while you're still airborne, but you get the point. If you are outside of the catching area and you would have entered it in the next frame, then the frame after that the item would have hit you, then sure, z-catching becomes a 1 frame window.

 

[Scrubtorights]

I'm not sure if this is the right wording, but how much of a frame advantage a character like Ness gets for ledge drop then airdodge.

 

[busken]

What are the restrictions of this techniques aside from no c-stick aerials, which would also mean you can't do retreating aerials.

 

[Jams.]

What are the restrictions of this techniques aside from no c-stick aerials, which would also mean you can't do retreating aerials.

I think you can still do retreating aerials. You have a shoulder button mapped to attack and the c-stick performs a 1 frame directional input, so pressing attack and the c-stick at the same time should input an aerial while you still maintain aerial control with your analogue stick. I haven't tested this personally so I'll edit my comment if this information is incorrect.

 

[busken]

yh, i'll do some more research as well.

 

[san.]

Do we have the frame data on the frame data when one can fox trot forward the second time in a row? Are they the same for all characters? How does it compare to the fastest normal fox trots of ~17 frames?

 

[Masonomace]

Do we have the frame data on the frame data when one can fox trot forward the second time in a row? Are they the same for all characters? How does it compare to the fastest normal fox trots of ~17 frames?

Dunno, haven't seen something like that, but it can be gathered. For example, Shulk's foxtrot like every foxtrot starts on frame 1 out of standing position, & you can initiate another foxtrot starting on frame 16. Then you can initiate a third foxtrot starting on frame 30.

 

[san.]

Dunno, haven't seen something like that, but it can be gathered. For example, Shulk's foxtrot like every foxtrot starts on frame 1 out of standing position, & you can initiate another foxtrot starting on frame 16. Then you can initiate a third foxtrot starting on frame 30.

Thanks! I can roughly assume for now that most will be around that general time frame.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Do we have the frame data on the frame data when one can fox trot forward the second time in a row? Are they the same for all characters? How does it compare to the fastest normal fox trots of ~17 frames?

A while ago I posted this:

Foxtrotting: I see what you're trying to do, i.e. compare different movement options to see what available options you have out of them, but I'd still divide this into two sections, the initial and later dash. The initial dash, as I said earlier, being the first 6 frames presumably for all characters. As for the later dash that's going to be much more character dependent. I generally test using Link so that's who I'll use. The earliest another joystick input can be made for the next dash forwards (in the same direction) is on frame 16 (which immediately activates the next dash on the same frame) and that's if you return the joystick to neutral before or on frame 13. For an extreme comparison, Mac can input the next Dash on frame 5 which buffers into the next dash which occurs on frame 16. Characters are generally going to fall into one of these two categories (e.g. Marth is more like Mac, while Mario is more like Link, but I'm using Link as the example for now). Going along then with your idea to not return the joystick to neutral first, we'll count the later dash as being frames 7 to 12 which works out because Link transitions into the Run on frame 13 anyway (i.e. the first frame shield will activate).

 

[DanGR]

https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming/v/56805010?t=5h22m52s

Is this a case of Mario being hit while snapping to the ledge, and thus regaining his second jump?

 

[Lavani]

https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming/v/56805010?t=5h22m52s

Is this a case of Mario being hit while snapping to the ledge, and thus regaining his second jump?

Yep. If you look closely you can see Mario starting to snap just before he gets hit.

 

[Masonomace]

Question: How can I tell the range of a move? There's size, X, Y, & Z values, but I'm just lost on it all. I did a little project involving the Luigi Mansion pillars & tested ledge attack ranges by seeing who hits it & who doesn't. These characters hit the pillar:

Briefly testing Mii sizes, the 100 height & 100 weight was also able to hit the pillar with their ledge attack, but I have little clue about whether both height & weight help or just one stat. So back to the big 5:

Spoiler: Ganon's ledge attack from mastercore

Spoiler: Mewtwo's ledge attack from mastercore

Spoiler: Bowser's ledge attack from mastercore

Spoiler: Donkey Kong's ledge attack from mastercore

Spoiler: Charizard's ledge attack from mastercore

 

[abx]

I'm a bit unsure if I get the concept of DI correctly and the fact that the system has changed in the past confuses me a bit. So please point out any misconceptions. I think it's about time that I get this straight.

Regular DI applies when I get launched. Let's say in a normal 45° angle, to the upper right corner. By pushing the analog stick towards the lower right corner I can in this scenario lower the trajectory which would actually shorten the distance to the blast zone. If i were launched horizontally, I could push the analog stick into the upper direction to lengthen the trajectory and thus secure the stock eventually. This applies to vertical launches as well, given that I push the analog stick in the appropiate direction. That is, I can shift a normally 90° trajectory to either left or right.


And then there's SDI, which applies to a short phase of hitlag right after I got hit by sufficiently strong attacks. Any SDI input is caused by tapping the analog stick in any direction, I don't need to hold it. In fact, it is better if I could tap repeatedly in the same direction to shorten the trajectory. If applied, my character will slightly re-position himself during the hitlag animation which either gives more room for the trajectory, making it possible to surivive an otherwise lethal hit, or messes with the opponent's follow ups.

 

[ligersandtigons]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zpq9E-gITdk

So Falln released a video arguing why staling kill moves doesn't matter

is this true? because my anecdotal evidence shows the opposite lol

 

[Yikarur]

it "does" matter, but like staling doesn't reduce the knockback directly. It only reduces the damage. If a move does 1% base damage it does 1,05% fresh and 0,92% if it's on the first stale position. Thats not much knockback reduced but the effect is still visible.
In the video the difference was even less because the move is not on the first position in the stale move queue anymore.

 

[ligersandtigons]

it "does" matter, but like staling doesn't reduce the knockback directly. It only reduces the damage. If a move does 1% base damage it does 1,05% fresh and 0,92% if it's on the first stale position. Thats not much knockback reduced but the effect is still visible.
In the video the difference was even less because the move is not on the first position in the stale move queue anymore.

So is it negligible or no?

Like, I play Corrin and on the Corrin boards, some people are like "only use up throw to close out stocks or else you'll stale it". Is that something someone should actually be concerned about?

 

[Sonicninja115]

So is it negligible or no?

Like, I play Corrin and on the Corrin boards, some people are like "only use up throw to close out stocks or else you'll stale it". Is that something someone should actually be concerned about?

Not if you use 9 moves in between them. The stale moves queue only has 9 slots, and if you use a move, your first move goes down a slot. So, If you use Uthrow, it will be in slot 1, but then you use Fair-Uair. After Fair-Uair, Uthrow is now in slot 3. When a move is no longer in the stale moves queue, it regains it's full power.

 

[NickRiddle]

Stale move queue only has 9 inputs, so using it at low %s means it will un-stale before you kill with it.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

But when Corrin players say not to use Uthrow until you need it for the kill, they're not wrong. Dthrow does as much damage. Using that over Uthrow is just good logic.

 

[DanGR]

For how many frames does Ness' airdodge extend into the Z-axis? Do any other airdodges have this characteristic?

 

[Jeronado]

I'm not sure where else to ask this. Would anyone be able to point me towards a list of initial dash speeds? I've found a few posts laying around the boards but they're all kinda old and I'm not sure how up-to-date they are.

 

[HimaBook]

I'm not sure where else to ask this. Would anyone be able to point me towards a list of initial dash speeds? I've found a few posts laying around the boards but they're all kinda old and I'm not sure how up-to-date they are.

Spreadsheet which uploaded at 1.1.5 Patch Notes includes that. Column J is dash initial velocity.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Is anyone aware of Shulks counter formulas? I'm curious.

 

[Riggen]

Does Eh Have Combo Followups? I Really Suck At Arranging Them... The Only One's I Know Are Either From Down Throw Or By Opponent's Dumb Tactics (For Glory Is Weird Sometimes)

 

[Eugene Wang]

What are all the special angles? I mean those that are treated specially in the game engine like 361, the Sakurai angle.

 

[Jams.]

Lavani made some great posts about the special angles, so I'll just quote them.

Angles over 360° have their own special rules rather than starting over at 0°.

361° is the Sakurai angle, which has a variable angle depending on the strength of knockback (0° with weak knockback, around 40° with higher knockback)

363° makes the launch angle match directional movement. It's only used for the travel hitbox of Extremespeed Attack, as far as attacks go.

If I'm interpreting it right (pretty sure I am, it looks accurate in-game):

365° - Knockback angle matches the user's movement.
366° - Upward knockback on grounded opponents (85°?), autolink on airborne. Pulls opponents toward the user's center in addition to matching movement.
367° - Pulls opponents toward the user's center in addition to matching movement.

Also not something I'd ever stopped to think about, but it seems autolink hitstun is calculated from what the move's non-autolink knockback would be. Explains why Greninja uair starts putting Sheik in tumble around 67% even if she isn't really launched anywhere.

 

[Masonomace]

Is anyone aware of Shulks counter formulas? I'm curious.

You mean like the slowdown formula? I wouldn't know the exact answer, but I did this testing back in like, March some time ago:

So Vision's counter slows down frames, yes? Here's what I gathered about Shulk's Vision in a brief test:

Shulk airborne Vision vs Shulk's Down Air
Both Shulks drop through a platform. ShulkA who will aerial Vision counter drops first to input Vision. ShulkB drops through after & inputs Down air which causes him to fastfall so that he's close within range.

• ShulkA's Vision counter window gets hit by ShulkB's Dair on frame 14, activating frame 1 of Vision counter.
• ^ This leads to that ShulkA's aerial counterattack on frame 45 connected with ShulkB's "frame 23" Dair2.
• On frame 45 of Vision, ShulkA trades hits with ShulkB.
• Both hits trade on frame 58; as in, the beginning of Dair1 going smoothly from frame 1-14 until hitting Vision.

TL;DR
Frame 14 Dair1 activated Frame 1 Vision
"Frame 23 Dair2" traded on the same frame with Frame 45 Vision. Air Vision is intangible of frame 9-44 so it's undecided if it was really the first frame hitbox of Dair2
Total of frames from start to finish: frame 1-14 of Dair1 until frame 58 is the attack trade between Dair2 & Vision

 

[KuroganeHammer]

No I mean something like this:

Witch Time's effect got nerfed.
Duration(from WT) : INT(180+"Opponent's %"/5) -> INT(180+"Opponent's %"/10)
Duration(from BW) : INT(120+"Opponent's %"/5) -> INT(120+"Opponent's %"/10)
Duration penalty per use : 50F/50F -> 75F/50F
Duration recovery per frame : 0.08F/0.08F -> 0.06F/0.041F

There must be a formula for Shulk's vision that determines how many counter frames you get. The upper limit is 41 and the lowest amount is 12. You know this already cos you told me about it kek

 

[Masonomace]

No I mean something like this:



There must be a formula for Shulk's vision that determines how many counter frames you get. The upper limit is 41 and the lowest amount is 12. You know this already cos you told me about it kek

Ooooooh. Yeah there should be, but sadly I don't know it either. This makes relevant sense now because of WT acting similarly to Shulk's Vision now too. Man. .

 

[Meshima]

Found some multipliers from param files.

with Deep Breathing
Walk Accel/Max Walk Velocity x1.2

with Limit Break
Walk Initial/Walk Accel/Max Walk Velocity x1.15
Ground Friction/Air Friction x1.15
Dash Initial/Dash Accel A/Dash Accel B/Run Speed x1.2
Gravity x1.1

with Monado Arts

Spoiler: Monado Arts

Jump
Damage Taken x1.22
Air Speed x1.5
Fall Speed x1.22?

Speed
Damage Dealt x0.8
Air Speed x1.3
Run Speed x1.7

Shield
Damage Taken x0.67
Damage Dealt x0.7
Knockback Received x0.78
Run Speed x0.6
Air Speed x0.6

Buster
Damage Taken x1.13
Damage Dealt x1.4
Knockback Dealt x0.68

Smash
Damage Dealt x0.5
Knockback Received x1.07
Knockback Dealt x1.18

I listed these multipliers in this spread sheet.
Monados multipliers are probably accurate but some attributes like air speed, run speed are possibly wrong cause these are written in different way.

I know Toomai had mentioned Dr. Mario has multipliers with Damage Dealt(x1.12) and some attributes(x0.82) and also found these values in different param file, fighter_param_etc.
Judging from this file, he seems to have various type of multipliers like x0.98, x1.04, x1.06 and x1.14 but I have no idea what these means.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

how has no one noticed that wii fit walks faster when she has deep breathing on

thanks M Meshima i knew most of these multipliers already but this is helpful for the ones I didn't know