Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Lavani]

Diddy Kong's hoo-haa works far longer on the combo meter then in actuality, because of hitstun mechanics and such. What would be the most efficient way to test this combo? My main thought is to set X to airdodge and then have my brother mash it until I find the right percent.

That would work.

Also, the amount of hitstun received varies from character to character right? So bowser isn't going to receive as much hitstun when hit at 90% by an Fsmash as Zelda would under the same circumstances?

Well, weight varies, which means knockback at the same percent varies, which means hitstun varies. If a move were locked at 100KB, Bowser would suffer the same hitstun as Zelda or any other character. In reference to Diddy dthrow, Bowser would suffer the same hitstun at 126% that Zelda suffers at 100%.

(short answer: yes)

 

[Sonicninja115]

That would work.


Well, weight varies, which means knockback at the same percent varies, which means hitstun varies. If a move were locked at 100KB, Bowser would suffer the same hitstun as Zelda or any other character. In reference to Diddy dthrow, Bowser would suffer the same hitstun at 126% that Zelda suffers at 100%.

(short answer: yes)

So is there a way I could find the percent with one character, and then easily get the numbers for everyone else? Or would it be a long, complicated formula?

 

[Lavani]

So is there a way I could find the percent with one character, and then easily get the numbers for everyone else? Or would it be a long, complicated formula?

KuroganeHammer has this handy dandy calculator

If this is for combo purposes though then character attributes like size, gravity, and fall speed will also play a factor in when they can or can't be hit with a followup and would require individual testing in-game.

 

[Sonicninja115]

KuroganeHammer has this handy dandy calculator

If this is for combo purposes though then character attributes like size, gravity, and fall speed will also play a factor in when they can or can't be hit with a followup and would require individual testing in-game.

I have the calculator.

Ok, thanks!

 

[teluoborg]

Do roll cancel pivot grabs extend your grab range?
I know dash attack canceled grabs extend your grab range, so would it be the same for dash attack canceled pivot grabs? This happened in brawl, and I wonder if it can happen here.
I know you can buffer out of throw, but can you buffer out of grabs? Like pummel as soon as possible?

Yes, but only slightly and I don't know of any case where a roll canceled grab would permit something that couldn't be done with a regular pivot grab.
And yes you can buffer a pummel out of a grab, just pressZ (or whaterver your grab button is) twice instead of once.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Robin benefits from every single bit of extra grab range, but other than that specific case I can't think of a huge overall benefit.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

I remember seeing Zelda's grab range longer, but idk. Her pivot grab got nerfed from 18.7->16.7

 

[Masonomace]

Yo is there a source or somewhere or perhaps just someone who might know footstool data? I'm interested about footstool jumpsquat data for the whole cast so I can better my awareness. Though if no one knows in advance, I might just lab every character & report back with the data results.

EDIT: Seems I finished the footstool jumpsquat data list. Here it is, & you're welcomed to lab your respective character & double confirm the numbers if you'd like to that is.

EDIT#2: I forgot to mention that these footstool jumpsquats were labbed with the opponent standing on the floor. The only character I labbed the aerial footstool jumpsquat was my primary, Shulk. He clocked out with 7 frames of footstool jumpsquat in the air like he does on a grounded opponent, so I just wanna assume that they're all identical in this manner.

EDIT #3: Thanks for the format suggestion change teluoborg

Spoiler: Footstool jumpsquats labbed

7 frames :
, , , , , , , , , (X/X), , , , , , & .

8 frames :
Everyone else.

BONUS
(0/0): 8 frames
(50/50): 8 frames
(100/100): 8 frames
(0/0): 8 frames
(50/50): 8 frames
(100/100): 8 frames
(0/0): 7 frames
(50/50): 7 frames
(100/100): 7 frames

Text form

FOOTSTOOL JUMPSQUATS
7 frames:
Bowser Jr., Captain Falcon, Dr. Mario, Duck Hunt, Greninja, Kirby, Mario, Marth, Mega Man, Mii Gunner (X/X), Pac-Man, R.O.B., Rosalina & Luma, Samus, Shulk, & Sonic.

8 frames:
Everyone else.

BONUS
Mii Brawler 0/0: 8 frames
Mii Swordfighter 0/0: 8 frames
Mii Gunner 0/0: 7 frames
Mii Brawler 50/50: 8 frames
Mii Swordfighter 50/50: 8 frames
Mii Gunner 50/50: 7 frames
Mii Brawler 100/100: 8 frames
Mii Swordfighter 100/50: 8 frames
Mii Gunner 100/100: 7 frames

 

[Sonicninja115]

Question:
Does Rage affect Hitstun?

 

[Vipermoon]

Yes, hitstun calculates from post-rage (plus other knockback adjustments) knockback.

 

[teluoborg]

Yo is there a source or somewhere or perhaps just someone who might know footstool data? I'm interested about footstool jumpsquat data for the whole cast so I can better my awareness. Though if no one knows in advance, I might just lab every character & report back with the data results.

EDIT: Seems I finished the footstool jumpsquat data list. Here it is, & you're welcomed to lab your respective character & double confirm the numbers if you'd like to that is.

EDIT#2: I forgot to mention that these footstool jumpsquats were labbed with the opponent standing on the floor. The only character I labbed the aerial footstool jumpsquat was my primary, Shulk. He clocked out with 7 frames of footstool jumpsquat in the air like he does on a grounded opponent, so I just wanna assume that they're all identical in this manner.

Spoiler: Footstool jumpsquats labbed

: 7 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 7 frames
: 7 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 7 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 7 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 7 frames
: 7 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 7 frames
: 7 frames
: 8 frames
: 7 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
(Including all arts): 7 frames
: 7 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 7 frames
: 7 frames
: 7 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
(Including Limit Break): 8 frames
: 8 frames
: 8 frames
(0/0): 8 frames
(50/50): 8 frames
(100/100): 8 frames
(0/0): 8 frames
(50/50): 8 frames
(100/100): 8 frames
(0/0): 7 frames
(50/50): 7 frames
(100/100): 7 frames

Text form

FOOTSTOOL JUMPSQUATS
Mario: 7 frames
Luigi: 8 frames
Peach: 8 frames
Bowser: 8 frames
Yoshi: 8 frames
Rosalina & Luma: 7 frames
Bowser Jr.: 7 frames
Wario: 8 frames
Donkey kong: 8 frames
Diddy Kong: 8 frames
Mr. Game & Watch: 8 frames
Little Mac: 8 frames
Link: 8 frames
Zelda: 8 frames
Sheik: 8 frames
Ganondorf: 8 frames
Toon Link: 8 frames
Samus: 7 frames
Zero Suit Samus: 8 frames
Pit: 8 frames
Palutena: 8 frames
Marth: 7 frames
Ike: 8 frames
Robin: 8 frames
Duck Hunt: 7 frames
Kirby: 7 frames
King Dedede: 8 frames
Meta Knight: 8 frames
Fox: 8 frames
Falco: 8 frames
Pikachu: 8 frames
Charizard: 8 frames
Lucario: 8 frames
Jigglypuff: 8 frames
Greninja: 7 frames
R.O.B.: 7 frames
Ness: 8 frames
Captain Falcon: 7 frames
Villager: 8 frames
Olimar: 8 frames
Wii Fit Trainer: 8 frames
Shulk: 7 frames
Dr. Mario: 7 frames
Dark Pit: 8 frames
Lucina: 8 frames
Pac-Man: 7 frames
Mega Man: 7 frames
Sonic: 7 frames
Mewtwo: 8 frames
Lucas: 8 frames
Roy: 8 frames
Ryu: 8 frames
Cloud: 8 frames
Corrin: 8 frames
Bayonetta: 8 frames
Mii Brawler 0/0: 8 frames
Mii Swordfighter 0/0: 8 frames
Mii Gunner 0/0: 7 frames
Mii Brawler 50/50: 8 frames
Mii Swordfighter 50/50: 8 frames
Mii Gunner 50/50: 7 frames
Mii Brawler 100/100: 8 frames
Mii Swordfighter 100/50: 8 frames
Mii Gunner 100/100: 7 frames

That is both an awesome job done and a terrible way to display data.

7 frames :
Bowser Jr, Mario, Rosalina, Samus, Marth, Kirby, Duck Hunt, Greninja, Rob, Captain Falcon, Shulk, Dr Mario, Pacman, Megaman, Sonic, Mii Gunner. (if I could easily sort them alphabetically on my phone I'd do it)

8 frames :
Everyone else.

With that done could you please double check on Marth and Lucina ? Because I have a hard time believing their frame data could differ in any way.

 

[Lavani]

Yes, hitstun calculates from post-rage (plus other knockback adjustments) knockback.

Knockback changes caused by holding up/down don't affect hitstun, however.

 

[Masonomace]

That is both an awesome job done and a terrible way to display data.

7 frames :
Bowser Jr, Mario, Rosalina, Samus, Marth, Kirby, Duck Hunt, Greninja, Rob, Captain Falcon, Shulk, Dr Mario, Pacman, Megaman, Sonic, Mii Gunner. (if I could easily sort them alphabetically on my phone I'd do it)

8 frames :
Everyone else.

With that done could you please double check on Marth and Lucina ? Because I have a hard time believing their frame data could differ in any way.

Sorry, I made it all in a quick Notepad file & wasn't thinking to type it that clean as you did.
I also thought that too, but it is in fact true that Marth & Lucina actually differ in their footstool jumpsquats. Who would of thought huh? Of all the things that they wouldn't share, it'd be footstool jumpsquat EVEN THOUGH THEY SHARE THE SAME JUMPSQUAT. I couldn't explain why either, I just labbed what I could & shook my head at it. Even the other clone cases were identical so I triple-checked Marcina just to be sure.

EDIT: Heck why not. I edited it to make it look cleaner. Thanks in advance!

 

[Vipermoon]

Um...are the animations the same? I thought to their respective games and I can't come up with a logical explanation. But okay then.

 

[Masonomace]

I didn't pay too much attention to the animations themselves, just the first animation frame of airdodge or Down air that I inputted after the footstool jumpsquat to help determine the exact value. So yeah. . .dunno.

Anywho, Lavani does Luma's smash attacks also have Charge Hold & Charge Release mechanics to them? Rosalina's smash attacks seen here without Luma is why I got curious:

 

[Lavani]

Anywho, Lavani does Luma's smash attacks also have Charge Hold & Charge Release mechanics to them? Rosalina's smash attacks seen here without Luma is why I got curious:

Luma's are on the same frame as Rosa's.

 

[Kofu]

Do footstool jumpsquats differ on whether or not you perform a short footstool or a full footstool?

 

[Masonomace]

Luma's are on the same frame as Rosa's.

Nice thanks!

Do footstool jumpsquats differ on whether or not you perform a short footstool or a full footstool?

From my knowledge of testing a few characters, it was identical whether you hold or just tap the footstool, or perform the footstool from the ground or in the air. I would say that there could be a change since I did not test it to that extent with every character, but I know I labbed Shulk to the max seeing that he's my primary character & that his short footstool & full footstool had identical frame data.
═════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════
EDIT: Okay, I'm irritated about this now. I'm convinced something happened to footstool endlag or character's footstool jumpsquat got nerfed. My lack of pursue towards solving this is that I don't have older patches of the game on Wii U or 3DS to lab on, so I can't find out unless I ask someone who does. May I ask anyone here who has previous patches of the games to lab Jump Shulk's short footstool into Dair? It was a true combo on more than several characters, but now in recent patches it no longer works because every character can perfect shield it now. That, or maybe there's datamined information about footstool jumpsquats getting a universal nerf??

 

[Sonicninja115]

Is there a thread or post detailing the downsides of the combo meter? I know it can generally be trusted, except in some scenarios like hitstun cancelling and such. I just need to find out more for labbing combos.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Is there a thread or post detailing the downsides of the combo meter? I know it can generally be trusted, except in some scenarios like hitstun cancelling and such. I just need to find out more for labbing combos.

It also goes crazy in regard to moves that bury, or stun, or freeze. Not because the presumable human player can mash to escape earlier, I mean it really goes crazy and assumes a neutral falling state after being released is some kind of hitstun. It also counts combos for techable ground rebounds, but if the target isn't prone on the ground, they would be able to tech. The combo counter's purpose is to communicate hitstun and it does that very well for conventional combos.

But because it only focuses on hitstun, it doesn't account for forced lag states, such as missing a tech, sliding off platforms, being jab locked, the untechable spin, or being footstooled in the air and landing without the ability to tech. Or if you hit a target with a light move that forces them to leave the ground and they land, they suffer their hard landing lag at the point of landing. And if that landing lag starts during hitstun, but extends past where hitstun technically ends, it's effectively "more hitstun". But the combo counter isn't smart enough to register that. These situations are not common, and I only know of it on jabs into tilts or grabs for a kill.

 

[Sonicninja115]

It also goes crazy in regard to moves that bury, or stun, or freeze. Not because the presumable human player can mash to escape earlier, I mean it really goes crazy and assumes a neutral falling state after being released is some kind of hitstun. It also counts combos for techable ground rebounds, but if the target isn't prone on the ground, they would be able to tech. The combo counter's purpose is to communicate hitstun and it does that very well for conventional combos.

But because it only focuses on hitstun, it doesn't account for forced lag states, such as missing a tech, sliding off platforms, being jab locked, the untechable spin, or being footstooled in the air and landing without the ability to tech. Or if you hit a target with a light move that forces them to leave the ground and they land, they suffer their hard landing lag at the point of landing. And if that landing lag starts during hitstun, but extends past where hitstun technically ends, it's effectively "more hitstun". But the combo counter isn't smart enough to register that. These situations are not common, and I only know of it on jabs into tilts or grabs for a kill.

Thanks! I am really tired of people completely discounting the combo meter. This will definitely help clear that up.

 

[LancerStaff]

Thanks! I am really tired of people completely discounting the combo meter. This will definitely help clear that up.

It's just easier to tell people to not use it instead of explaining every little detail... And the whole "counts hitstun that could be cancelled" thing means that fringe combos or when people try to find combo ranges, things get thrown way off.

 

[Sonicninja115]

It's just easier to tell people to not use it instead of explaining every little detail... And the whole "counts hitstun that could be cancelled" thing means that fringe combos or when people try to find combo ranges, things get thrown way off.

My rule of thumb is be careful above 110%, as that is when hc really kicks in, and add/subtract 10% for all combo ranges. Combos that rely on KB of a move and not hitstun are pretty accurate though. For example, M2's Dtilt-DJ Uair. It stops working because of Uairs KBG, and not Dtilt/hitstun.

 

[Billwally]

I've noticed that if you angle mac's up-b just right it autosnaps

 

[Vipermoon]

My rule of thumb is be careful above 110%, as that is when hc really kicks in, and add/subtract 10% for all combo ranges. Combos that rely on KB of a move and not hitstun are pretty accurate though. For example, M2's Dtilt-DJ Uair. It stops working because of Uairs KBG, and not Dtilt/hitstun.

There's so much wrong here. The percent doesn't matter; it's all about knockback which is where hitstun comes from. You can't say to generally watch out for this percent or add and subtract that percent to stay safe (unless we talk about one specific move).

Shortly past the tumble knockback threshold is when 41 frames of hitstun is dealt. Air dodges stop at frame 41 (until things start doing enough knockback to kill). This is what hitstun cancelling is: air dodging out of things. Aerials hitstun cancel eventually too just not as early. Jumps and specials don't hitstun cancel.

Your Mewtwo example has nothing to do with Uair's kbg because Uair is the finisher.... it didn't come into play yet. It's just that Mewtwo's double jump rises too slow to keep up with Dtilt's high percent knockback when your opponent can still air dodge after frame 41.

 

[Sonicninja115]

There's so much wrong here. The percent doesn't matter; it's all about knockback which is where hitstun comes from. You can't say to generally watch out for this percent or add and subtract that percent to stay safe (unless we talk about one specific move).

Shortly past the tumble knockback threshold is when 41 frames of hitstun is dealt. Air dodges stop at frame 41 (until things start doing enough knockback to kill). This is what hitstun cancelling is: air dodging out of things. Aerials hitstun cancel eventually too just not as early. Jumps and specials don't hitstun cancel.

Your Mewtwo example has nothing to do with Uair's kbg because Uair is the finisher.... it didn't come into play yet. It's just that Mewtwo's double jump rises too slow to keep up with Dtilt's high percent knockback when your opponent can still air dodge after frame 41.

First, I mis spelled the combo. Dtilt-DJ Uair-Fair is what I meant. The combo stops working because of KB, and not hitstun wearing off.

Second, when I lab a combos percents, I get the max possible percent. This is why I say subtract 10% I am literally frame perfect, hitting the toe of the opponent at max. This makes it rather difficult to pull off mid-match. It becomes extremely unreliable, especially with all the possible factors. For a safe bet on a combo that I labbed working, subtract a bit of percent.

I understand hc. It's what makes 50/50's basically. I should have specified that you cannot trust in the combo connecting after 110 because it usually becomes a 50/50 around then.

 

[Vipermoon]

First, I mis spelled the combo. Dtilt-DJ Uair-Fair is what I meant. The combo stops working because of KB, and not hitstun wearing off.

Second, when I lab a combos percents, I get the max possible percent. This is why I say subtract 10% I am literally frame perfect, hitting the toe of the opponent at max. This makes it rather difficult to pull off mid-match. It becomes extremely unreliable, especially with all the possible factors. For a safe bet on a combo that I labbed working, subtract a bit of percent.

I understand hc. It's what makes 50/50's basically. I should have specified that you cannot trust in the combo connecting after 110 because it usually becomes a 50/50 around then.

Okay so you had a typo and now we're talking about a specific situation. No problem with percent rages here,

 

[TL?]

I've got a random question. Hopefully this is the right place to ask. What are the most difficult techniques in smash 4 that have some value? It could be a glitch, a difficult combo, or technical use of movement, or anything that is difficult to execute. I'm not super up to date on smash 4 right now, so feel free to include tech that may seem well known.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I've got a random question. Hopefully this is the right place to ask. What are the most difficult techniques in smash 4 that have some value? It could be a glitch, a difficult combo, or technical use of movement, or anything that is difficult to execute. I'm not super up to date on smash 4 right now, so feel free to include tech that may seem well known.

IZAC for a character with a Zair is pretty dumb. You have a 1 frame window to z-drop the bomb [edit: read 'bomb' as 'throwing item' more generally; force of habit etc] (if you try to z-drop it one frame too early you cancel the jump with a throw, one frame too late and you get a z-drop + zair) and then you have a small window to release the grab button and only then input the aerial to catch the item (if you input the aerial too early before you let go of grab you'll just get a Zair and have no idea where exactly you messed up; input it too late and you won't be able to catch the item anymore).

Then there's the really dumb stuff like platform drop cancelling out of an immediate shield platform drop. So e.g. you take Mewtwo, you stand on a platform and charge neutral special, you steadily move the joystick downwards during which you then input shield to give you an immediate platform drop directly out of the charge (if done correctly you won't even see the shield come up), and then if e.g. you want to jab, you'd have to return the joystick to neutral and let go of shield, and only then input the jab all within a 2 frame window. You'll never do it, but essentially it means you can do any move directly out of a charge so long as you're on a platform. The same goes for running on a platform because you can shield directly out of a run meaning that technically you can do any move directly out of that run, but again, you'll never be able to do it.

 

[TL?]

IZAC for a character with a Zair is pretty dumb. You have a 1 frame window to z-drop the bomb [edit: read 'bomb' as 'throwing item' more generally; force of habit etc] (if you try to z-drop it one frame too early you cancel the jump with a throw, one frame too late and you get a z-drop + zair) and then you have a small window to release the grab button and only then input the aerial to catch the item (if you input the aerial too early before you let go of grab you'll just get a Zair and have no idea where exactly you messed up; input it too late and you won't be able to catch the item anymore).

Then there's the really dumb stuff like platform drop cancelling out of an immediate shield platform drop. So e.g. you take Mewtwo, you stand on a platform and charge neutral special, you steadily move the joystick downwards during which you then input shield to give you an immediate platform drop directly out of the charge (if done correctly you won't even see the shield come up), and then if e.g. you want to jab, you'd have to return the joystick to neutral and let go of shield, and only then input the jab all within a 2 frame window. You'll never do it, but essentially it means you can do any move directly out of a charge so long as you're on a platform. The same goes for running on a platform because you can shield directly out of a run meaning that technically you can do any move directly out of that run, but again, you'll never be able to do it.

Are there any videos of the platform cancel? I'm able to shieldless drop into aerials, but I'm not able to jab in time to stop myself from falling through. I'm aiming to stop holding down on the same frame I press shield, and then press A as soon as possible but still get the fall through nair. Also this was a great response that gave me something to play with, if anyone has any more I'm still interested.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Are there any videos of the platform cancel? I'm able to shieldless drop into aerials, but I'm not able to jab in time to stop myself from falling through. I'm aiming to stop holding down on the same frame I press shield, and then press A as soon as possible but still get the fall through nair. Also this was a great response that gave me something to play with, if anyone has any more I'm still interested.

I looked into it and wrote a thread about it a long time ago, back in brawl. This was the reference vid I used https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXXIyk_Fb6M
The same things still apply in smash 4 and just to be sure I quickly re-tested it for the post above (hence the more accurate '2 frame window' part of the explanation).

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Is their any visual sign that a move was perfect shielded on the very first frame?

I thought of this because since shielding is frame 1, but don't appear visually until frame 2, wouldn't that mean that if a move was perfect shielded on frame 1, when you can't see the shield, would the shield barely be seen? Of course, this may not happen with special shields like yoshi's

 

[Funen1]

Is their any visual sign that a move was perfect shielded on the very first frame?

I thought of this because since shielding is frame 1, but don't appear visually until frame 2, wouldn't that mean that if a move was perfect shielded on frame 1, when you can't see the shield, would the shield barely be seen? Of course, this may not happen with special shields like yoshi's

Shields still appear if you perfect shield something on frame 1, different from when bringing up shields normally.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

How fast is the crouching animation, how many frame(s) does it take for the game to register you in crouch?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

How fast is the crouching animation, how many frame(s) does it take for the game to register you in crouch?

It's a frame 1 action to get the reduced knockback benefit of crouching, of course it will take a few frames for characters to hunker down their hurtbox that low. And for characters who can crawl, if you have momentum from crawling forward or back, the game doesn't wait for you to come to a stop before registering strict crouching inputs.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

That makes a lot of sense, I assume characters like Wii Fit and Sheik will take longer to crouch to obtain their minimum hurtbox size, while characters like Kirby and Meta Knight would be faster.

 

[busken]

Is it possible to change the direction you are facing after a ledge cancel?
https://gfycat.com/AngryTestyIguana
Here Abadango was facing towards the right before the ledge cancel and before he slid off, he was facing towards the left
Does this normally happen when ledge canceling, and it possible to face in one direction and face the same direction after the ledge cancel?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Is it possible to change the direction you are facing after a ledge cancel?
https://gfycat.com/AngryTestyIguana
Here Abadango was facing towards the right before the ledge cancel and before he slid off, he was facing towards the left
Does this normally happen when ledge canceling, and it possible to face in one direction and face the same direction after the ledge cancel?

Abadongo turned around because he used teleport in a direction opposite of where he was facing. Mewtwo was not facing right at any point of his reappearance before sliding off the ledge. Though it does look like it for one frame, mewtwo's reappearance animation always incorporates a 360 degree spin that was cut off because of the ledge cancel.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Is their like a list of the FAF a character can act out of their skid animation?

 

[Masonomace]

Is their like a list of the FAF a character can act out of their skid animation?

Yes, yes there is.