Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Epok]

What I'm saying is that there is less of a pause when you go into your roll from the air. I guess I should not have used the word instant. I don't have any way of capturing frame rate unfortunately. All I can go off is my experience of using it.

You have to time your direction once you land on the ground. I have been testing this all week and this creates a smaller window of being hit when your on the offensive as well.

I used it online a lot to test it (I know not the most credible source lol) as well as the computer. It's descent as a cross up or to back up if you miss an approach. I'm sorry if I'm making this confusing.

 

[Epok]

Okay here we go! Here is a vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thm97aq2MaA&feature=youtu.be

You also have to take into account that how fast the move is depends on how well it works. Some moves you can short hop and do it, and some you have to full jump.

This isn't something I am trying to get praise or credit for really. I just found something interesting and wanted to share it and discuss it .

 

[Volt@ge]

Just a silly, small question. Is there any reliable means/tech that can help with dash cancelling? For example in melee where you could crouch it. Right now if I want to run up and decide to D-tilt or something, it feels really sluggish waiting for the dash to end, then inputting. Maybe I'm just slow.

 

[Shaya]

It's unfortunate in my mind that roll is buffed while spot dodge and shielding are nerfed. Rolling is ever-present in For Glory mode but I guess people will just have to learn to predict rolls.

Spot dodge and shield being nerfed made sense. They were overpowered in Brawl, and definitely do not have the same claim here. Some characters had 2 frame vulnerabilities off of spot dodges, now they're seemingly all seven.
Basically this testing gave me a truth about rolling: reacting to a roll by shielding is the dumbest/biggest mistake you can make. If you shield on reaction to a movement forward from your opponent, and they ROLL instead of attack or whatever, you're actually screwed and deserve to get punished.
The whole rolling away meta thing would've been exactly the same, if not WORSE, in Brawl if you were playing against ... LUCARIO. People are using Brawl habits to try to counter rolling when those options just aren't as good as they used to be.

Hey. This is old news, but for those who weren't aware yet, there is a difference between a rapid Jump-Up-A and all of the other Jump-A attacks. I didn't test N64 version, but this behaviour has been around since Melee at least. I suspect it is an artefact of up-jump controls from back in Melee (or earlier) when you couldn't disable it.

Video shows 3DS. This is the exact same behaviour as Brawl.

This is similar behaviour to Melee -- except that in Melee, your A attack would simply not register at all if it happened soon enough after your jump unless it was an Up-A attack (in which case it would register as a Flick-Up-A, similar to Brawl and 3DS).

Hello, that's known as buffering inputs.
And Jump Cancelling. Any "Up A" attack during your jump initial frames will cancel it.

You can still input up air attacks from a buffer. But you have to ensure your control stick is only tilting up lightly.

 

[BTmoney]

can someone explain to me how snapping to the ledge works when you walk off the stage? (and instantly grab it backwards)
sometimes I just keep falling and other times I instantly grab it but I don't see what the difference is

I never really played brawl and I just got smash 4

 

[M15t3R E]

can someone explain to me how snapping to the ledge works when you walk off the stage? (and instantly grab it backwards)
sometimes I just keep falling and other times I instantly grab it but I don't see what the difference is

I never really played brawl and I just got smash 4

It works the same way as it did in Brawl. Snapping the ledge is merely a matter of being next to it and you don't even need to be touching it. So long as you're not fast falling or performing an attack at the moment you will snap the edge.
To grab the edge the way you asked, you can fall off the edge and quickly move in the direction of the edge. Try it!

 

[MrFrigid]

It works the same way as it did in Brawl. Snapping the ledge is merely a matter of being next to it and you don't even need to be touching it. So long as you're not fast falling or performing an attack at the moment you will snap the edge.
To grab the edge the way you asked, you can fall off the edge and quickly move in the direction of the edge. Try it!

It's not as snappy as it was in brawl :'(

Also, are you guys talking about TODAYS shield nerf?

 

[Thinkaman]

Also, are you guys talking about TODAYS shield nerf?

There is no shield nerf. Patch 1.0.3 is not a balance patch, and does not seem to change gameplay in any significant way.

 

[Jaxas]

It's not as snappy as it was in brawl :'(

Also, are you guys talking about TODAYS shield nerf?

Shield nerf? What?

 

[Thinkaman]

Shield nerf? What?

A reduction in shield HP was one of the many placebo changes that have been reported.

It has been confirmed as false. Shields still have 50 HP and take 6.5 seconds to deplete.

 

[edde]

so... lets say im knocked upwards... whats the best way to survive?:

-hold controller stick down all the time
-tap controller stick down many times to input more vectors (?)

its a stupid doubt i have on my head

 

[B0NK]

If you're knock upwards and right above 45 degrees, hold down+right to survive as long as possible.

As for being hit right below 45 degrees, hold down+left to survive as long as possible.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

So, I have been testing out crouch cancelling on Mute City (when invincibility wears off) in training mode. No custom parts or anything.

Lucario survives significantly longer than Samus. Like I was able to crouch cancel and had him survive to 200% without touching the cars. I tested this multiple times and I'm not sure what to think about this.

The best I can do with Samus is 134% with crouch canceling with my best DI at this time. I don't know what to think anymore, lol.

Any insight would be appreciated.

 

[edde]

so... no tapping... and why right and not left?

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I notice some people tend to launch higher than normal when I Dthrow them, keeping me from doing a proper followup with Palutena or Ike. This is at low percents, too.

 

[Tythaeus]

Any tips on how to get better at doing tilts? I'm not used to doing them and often end up doing smashes rather than the tilt. ._.

 

[Doval]

Any tips on how to get better at doing tilts? I'm not used to doing them and often end up doing smashes rather than the tilt. ._.

Just practice. You don't need to move the circle pad much. Alternatively wait for the Wii U version and map the second stick to tilts.

 

[mimgrim]

I notice some people tend to launch higher than normal when I Dthrow them, keeping me from doing a proper followup with Palutena or Ike. This is at low percents, too.

That would most likely be the opponent DIing/VIing/Vectoring/whateverthehellyouwanttocallit up.

Or they're just using floaty characters.

 

[B0NK]

so... no tapping... and why right and not left?

I would use left or right to hold away from the opponent to escape a combo. In general, you want to hold away or up to escape combos, whether from throws or light hits. (This DI will get you killed though if the opponent mixes you up with a KO move/throw, just be watchful, what DI to use comes with experience).

I could try to explain why holding down+right or down+left works, but I'd rather say just test it out and you will immediately see that you will survive longer than simply holding only down to survive. And you will survive much longer than holding any other direction. (While I do believe some moves in this game you want to DI differently to survive, the majority of moves follow the rules I posted above).

afk

 

[popsofctown]

In Brawl, no matter what you are doing when you land, you have 2 frames of landing lag, 4 frames of landing lag if fastfalling, and you can't do anything during that time.

I hear people post in passing about "a little bit of normal landing lag" here and there but I haven't heard of frame measure or actual data on it. As far as I can tell with my naked eye, there isn't any normal landing lag. There's a normal landing animation, for sure, it's really dramatic, but you can act out of it right away or almost right away.

I could be off a little bit, but I'm 95% sure there's less than 4 frames of landing lag when you fastfall a landing, and I would hope I'm sharp enough to pick that out at the very least.


Does this game have universal landing lag? How many frames is it?

 

[Shaya]

In Brawl, no matter what you are doing when you land, you have 2 frames of landing lag, 4 frames of landing lag if fastfalling, and you can't do anything during that time.

I hear people post in passing about "a little bit of normal landing lag" here and there but I haven't heard of frame measure or actual data on it. As far as I can tell with my naked eye, there isn't any normal landing lag. There's a normal landing animation, for sure, it's really dramatic, but you can act out of it right away or almost right away.

I could be off a little bit, but I'm 95% sure there's less than 4 frames of landing lag when you fastfall a landing, and I would hope I'm sharp enough to pick that out at the very least.


Does this game have universal landing lag? How many frames is it?

I haven't seen any "normal landing lag" (fast fall or otherwise) that is smaller than 4 frames.
Haven't seen a difference between fast falling landing or otherwise either (animations may be different, but IASA is the same).

Marth is 4 frames, hence I'd assume everyone else is likely 4 frames.

Use the Q&A thread next time.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Marth is 4 frames, hence I'd assume everyone else is likely 4 frames.

I'm not sure if that's a safe assumption since we have things like air dodge landing lag being 22 frames for almost but not quite everyone.

 

[Shaya]

I'm not sure if that's a safe assumption since we have things like air dodge landing lag being 22 frames for almost but not quite everyone.

True, but 2/4 frames was the landing for everyone in Brawl I'm pretty sure? I make the assumption based off that.

 

[Doval]

Mega Man has 3 frames from what I can tell. That's neutral, don't know if fast falling affects it.

 

[LawofDeath]

The only ones I know are Mario's Neutral air and King DeDeDe's neutral air. What I'm looking for is other character that can use an aerial and land safely with say a block with practically no landing lag.

 

[Shaya]

The only ones I know are Mario's Neutral air and King DeDeDe's neutral air. What I'm looking for is other character that can use an aerial and land safely with say a block with practically no landing lag.

http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/ will give you a pretty good idea.

 

[BCE]

Can somebody help me or link me to guide that explain my best defensive options in every situation ? i really think that i lack this knowledge, when somebody starts to spam U-attack, like mario after Dthrow, how should i proceed to escape the "combo" ? when i get launched and the guy is coming to follow up with a dash attack, should i try to "press shield as soon as i land to recover faster" ( dont know the name of this tech), can i land already rolling ?

 

[Funkermonster]

How to practice teching and tech rolling so I can do it consistently in the heat of battle? I find the AI in training mode unreliable when they don't use the attacks I want them to.

 

[popsofctown]

Can somebody help me or link me to guide that explain my best defensive options in every situation ? i really think that i lack this knowledge, when somebody starts to spam U-attack, like mario after Dthrow, how should i proceed to escape the "combo" ? when i get launched and the guy is coming to follow up with a dash attack, should i try to "press shield as soon as i land to recover faster" ( dont know the name of this tech), can i land already rolling ?

The best escape depends on the character. Most characters want to double jump out of strings, because it avoids the followup move on the earliest possible frame. Some characters have an attack with invincibility or super armor on rather early frames that can be used to escape instead, like Marth's Up B. Or you can sometimes attack back with an extremely fast attack like Luigi's nair.

Pressing shield when you land on the ground to perform a roll is actually called "teching". Press left or right while you perform it to roll in a direction instead of rolling in place. That usually avoids dash attack best.

 

[NidoMay]

Uh, sorry I couldn't think of a better place to stick this thread.

Is there actually some way of moving out of rolls/shields/dodges faster or something? It always feels like opponents can move right at the end of a taunt for example when there's still supposed to be a few frame left.
Is it like you have to input said moves or whatever with timing or am I just suffering input lag? I am using the oldest 3ds model after all...
It's like if I try and counter with the exact same timing as others can it'll fail, and I've never gotten a perfect shield because, well, it fails to even shield unless I do it well in advance. Punishably well in advance.

I probably just suck and fail as a human being overall but is anyone else having problems with this? It's seriously starting to cost me in matches and it just feels like I'm always at a disadvantage to every opponent, even other human ones.

 

[Doval]

If you're playing online, yeah, there's an input delay. Even local wireless can lag sometimes. Do you have the same problem in single player modes?

 

[Shaya]

This game has buffering.
Any single input you use within the last 10 frames (1/6th of a second) as you come out of the lag of any action will be automatically input.

Otherwise, lag ruins all. Please use the questions thread in the future.

 

[Tristan_win]

Here's a fun little video that has a bunch of neat bugs for a wide selection of characters.

I suggest subscribing as he seems to be constantly pumping out new material right now.

So Red has made part2 of his bug video. Honestly not as good as the first one but still a fun watch.

The little mac part was my favorite.

 

[Jackson]

So... Boost grabbing and roll cancel grabbing are both techniques that increase dash grab range. Which one is longer?

 

[LawofDeath]

It's like if I try and counter with the exact same timing as others can it'll fail, and I've never gotten a perfect shield because, well, it fails to even shield unless I do it well in advance. Punishably well in advance.

I probably just suck and fail as a human being overall but is anyone else having problems with this? It's seriously starting to cost me in matches and it just feels like I'm always at a disadvantage to every opponent, even other human ones.

I'm so used to say blocking at the exact same time like I did in previous games. It just doesn't seem to work here. I also feel like I have to block slightly earlier than what I used to. It may be the online, I'm not too sure.

 

[BlueXenon]

On stages that have walls extending to the bottom blastzone, characters that have both a wall cling and wall jump have a great ledge mix up. To do this, you have to wall cling, wall jump, and then double jump. If your opponent is waiting near the ledge, you can use a footstool.

 

[Helper_45]

After messing with everyone's favorite Captain I found something. Not sure what to make of it OR its limitations, but here it is.

youtube.com/watch?v=82pUXZswC3

Skip till 1:05

EDIT:
Looks like Peach and Pits can do it to

 

[GdspdUblkprzdnt]

"An error occurred during validation.



This video does not exist.
Sorry about that."

 

[Judo777]

Anyone ever discover if its possible to cancel your charged moves in the air (like needles or giant punch) without airdodging? That one makes me so salty that I can't do it.

 

[Shaya]

Well you can do any OoS option on the ground but jumping from them I think.
In the air it's not meant to be easy I guess (considering you negate your landing lag with them, ITS FAIR)

You can only cancel air dodges with item throws or zairs from what I gather.