Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

That explains it. what's a glide toss then?

and a super glide toss is where it's a grab-cancelled with usmash inputted in between? makes mega man/link slide pretty far?

Have a look in the smash dictionary. (Linked in my signature.)
Cancelling the initial frames of a dash item toss with a regular standing item toss in any direction and getting a slide from it is generally referred to as Boost Tossing though it has many other names, some more technical like DITCIT or DACIT with the 'sliding' part assumed, and some more character specific like Bomb Sliding.

 

[Yikarur]

Does anyone have a "dash to neutral" frame list?

 

[Ninety]

So to recap, AC windows for aerials seem to remain untouched by patches unless it's REALLY necessary, and specials don't have priper autocancels but in some cases landing before the animation is over lets you cancel the landing lag. Yeah?

 

[Masonomace]

Does anyone have a "dash to neutral" frame list?

I believe that users that edit in these google documents have the data but haven't updated them yet. I could frame skip & tell you the findings later if you want.

 

[Delirious]

Is there any frame data for grabbing Fox/Falco out of Up-B, or can you grab them at any point of shield contact until they pass?

 

[Daymaster]

Does anyone know exactly how many frames of dashing you you lose between Foxtrots?

 

[Skitrel]

Does anyone know exactly how many frames of dashing you you lose between Foxtrots?

Dash transition? It varies quite a bit from character to character.

There's a comprehensive list here maintained by some in the Japanese community: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...O18BmHhvIBMzZLWBpLFyNsi14c/edit#gid=550638974

The smallest are Sheik/Corrin, the largest are Roy/Marcina/Falcon etc.

In general the larger the dash transition the easier/more forgiving the inputs for foxtrotting and extended dash dancing are.

 

[A10theHero]

Is there a resource that compares the grab range for standing, dash, and pivot grabs of all the characters?
I can only find this one, but it doesn't have the data for Bayonetta and Corrin, and it's only for standing grabs, I think.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Speaking of auto-cancels, does anyone have the landing lag for MFK and is there an AC window? Someone on the diddy boards was asking about it and Kurogane doesn't have it. @Ssbm_Jag

 

[Skitrel]

Speaking of auto-cancels, does anyone have the landing lag for MFK and is there an AC window? Someone on the diddy boards was asking about it and Kurogane doesn't have it. @Ssbm_Jag

That's also on the Japanese spreadsheet. 26 frames, no cancelling.

 

[-Tornado-]

So KuroganeHammer's Website recently posted a Calculator for the above:
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Calculator
Just thought this was worth sharing, I'm bad at making topics, sorry if this has already been posted (or if I posted this in the wrong place).

 

[Megamang]

The calculator is giving me some weird results for shield advantage. But, with the stun, I can figure out other stuff pretty well. I figure it must be some field im inputting oddly or shouldn't be leaving blank... but opponent's weight shouldn't effect shield stun values, I thought the only thing that does is damage and whether or not something is a projectile.

Anyways, thanks for the heads up. Kuroganehammer keeps getting better and better, pretty soon we won't need any other data, and that'll be great imo. I like its character too, lul. The picture for character attributes is great.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The calculator is giving me some weird results for shield advantage. But, with the stun, I can figure out other stuff pretty well. I figure it must be some field im inputting oddly or shouldn't be leaving blank... but opponent's weight shouldn't effect shield stun values, I thought the only thing that does is damage and whether or not something is a projectile.

Anyways, thanks for the heads up. Kuroganehammer keeps getting better and better, pretty soon we won't need any other data, and that'll be great imo. I like its character too, lul. The picture for character attributes is great.

Should be fixed! There was a nasty bug affecting some shield advantage calculations.

You'll need to redownload it off KH for it to work obviously.

 

[Megamang]

Woah! I wasn't crazy.

Question, if something is fresh can I just leave the staleness thing alone? I know that probably won't account for the freshness bonus, but that barely matters in most situations and I don't want to worry about too much, just trying to get some general shield pressure stuff in numbers.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

no. use the 1.05x bonus for the most accurate results.

I quite like this tweet:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Sonicninja115]

Am I correct in my PP Frames? First is minimum, second is max and the third is a fluctuating.

Frame Analysis:
Frame 1: Left
Frame 2: Right
Frame 3: Neutral/Center

Alternate 2:
Frame 1: Left
Frame 6: Right
Frame 7: Neutral/Center

Alternate 3:
Frame 1-5: Left
Frame 2-6: Right
Frame 3-7: Neutral/Center

Also, Characters like Mewtwo and Shiek crouch while using a Dtilt. Does this count as CC? And is there a thread detailing the frame advantage CC gives?

 

[Vipermoon]

Crouch cancels only apply to crouches. Dtilts or anything that isn't a simply crouch doesn't count.

 

[-Tornado-]

When using the calculator for Aerial Attacks, how should I factor Landing Lag? (Trying to use this for Ryu.)
Also, should Shield Damage be factored in for Shieldstun?

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Am I correct in my PP Frames? First is minimum, second is max and the third is a fluctuating.

Frame Analysis:
Frame 1: Left
Frame 2: Right
Frame 3: Neutral/Center

Alternate 2:
Frame 1: Left
Frame 6: Right
Frame 7: Neutral/Center

Alternate 3:
Frame 1-5: Left
Frame 2-6: Right
Frame 3-7: Neutral/Center

Assuming you're already facing left, and assuming with the third version you are still putting the joystick back to neutral on the following frame after hitting the joystick right, then yes.

 

[Vipermoon]

When using the calculator for Aerial Attacks, how should I factor Landing Lag? (Trying to use this for Ryu.)
Also, should Shield Damage be factored in for Shieldstun?

By using the FAF box. Subtract whatever you put in that box from whatever you put for hit frame (start-up) and you get landing lag + 1 (since it's FAF it's 1 extra). Realize you probably won't be landing on the same frame or the frame after your attack so add however many frames you want to to account for this.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Nooooooo don't subtract 1 on the faf box, I had it programmed to do that for you

Aerial advantage you need to put this into faf box:

Hit Frame + projected amount of frames before landing + landing lag + 1

 

[Vipermoon]

Nooooooo don't subtract 1 on the faf box, I had it programmed to do that for you

Aerial advantage you need to put this into faf box:

Hit Frame + projected amount of frames before landing + landing lag + 1

I meant that you get landing lag out of what is in FAF box by subtracting 1, not that you should un-FAF what you put in the FAF box yourself. I admit that it was a weird thing to say and weirdly worded haha (I edited it).

When you do gravity can you make it so that it can be switched off? Or it could be that the way you'd do it will show both the gravity and non-gravity knockback. Either way.

Is there a way to get staleness/freshness to factor into shield stun and advantage results? Maybe have it display two numbers like: Shield Advantage (Normal)..................-7/-6

Are you able to get the Enter key to calculate?

Thanks.

 

[DanGR]

Can someone verify that I'm doing at this correctly?

Source:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...18BmHhvIBMzZLWBpLFyNsi14c/edit#gid=1737910545

Let's take Mario's forward smash as the example. Hitbox normally occurs on frame 15. When you hold/charge the attack it holds you on effectively frame 5 (of course time is continuing, but you're "stuck" on frame 5 of the attack) such that when you release it, the hitbox comes out 10 frames later?

If you hold/charge the attack for the full duration and then let go, would the frame data happen in this way?:
1-5 Begin holding forward smash
6-65 Maximum hold (1 second)
66-75 Fsmash release
75 Fsmash hitbox begins

How does smash attack intangibility/invincibility play into this? G&W usually has partial invincibility frames 4-25 (according to kuroganehammmer). If he's holding upsmash on frame 17 of the attack, are the invincibility frames still there the whole way through til release? Is the invincibility "intervaled"?

Lastly, is charge growth linear?

 

[K~G|Spacejam]

When you do gravity can you make it so that it can be switched off? Or it could be that the way you'd do it will show both the gravity and non-gravity knockback. Either way.

Are you able to get the Enter key to calculate?

Thanks.

The enter thing actually slipped my mind when I made it. Oops. I thought of it last night. I'll get on it asap.

I guess I can include the gravity toggle.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Gravity toggle shouldn't be needed. You can just set the angle to 0 and you'll get KB values unaffected by gravity.

 

[K~G|Spacejam]

Stop being logical.

 

[epicnights]

since we've got this calculator now, would it be possible to calculate exactly how much knockback is needed to KO an opponent(barring character variables such as gravity, weight, etc.) and therefore have a standard to transfer the in-game distance unit(distance launched in the result stats)?

Or, for a less abstract question, will this calculator be able to display velocity?

 

[Captian slow]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but I believe that I came across a new piece of tech yesterday.
When you input special there is a slight buffer at the beginning where it seems to look for a directional input to determine what move it is. During this time you cannot use smashes attacks or another special. This appears to be accomplished by activating all of these so that re inputing them will not do anything. However, if you have your right stick set to smashes, since smashes are active it will return a directional input in this buffer time(just as the right stick does in a bidou configuration). This means that if you hit a direction fast enough after inputing special you can preform a special with the smash stick. However, to be capable of doing this fast enough one of the back buttons on your controller must be set to special as the distance between the b button and the right stick is to large. You can also only do this with a smash stick as tilt inputs will not work. This can be useful for maintaining full aerial momentum while doing a special move in any direction you like and for preforming b-reverses on moves that are other wise a little impractical to b-reverse( such as Mario's up b). Because this move utilizes smash stick inputs to preform b moves, for now I have dubbed it b-smashing.

 

[Shaya]

Yes it's the right place to post!
But, it's old news!

@TheReflexWonder did a video on it earlier after WiiU's release. I forget what he called it though.
Funnily enough, you can do this with the c-stick set to tilts (at least on a gc controller), which I personally find a lot easier than with smash settings.

 

[Megamang]

How quickly can you attack after being 'prattacked'?

Like, when you are pushed over the edge by, say, Megaman's walking pellet, would you be there long enough to get a guaranteed footstool?

Because if that is guaranteed, prepare for a much more aggressive megaman =p

 

[Pixel_]

Think I found a new tech, which should work on all characters.

Planning on making another video that'll explain it in more detail, but basically, whenever you get hard landing lag, you can turn around and input a crouch. For some characters (e.g. Yoshi), the crouch itself is enough. For others, you can start the walking animation and then crouch, which increases the distance of the fade.

Dunno how useful it is, but I'm wondering if I can make a thread about it once I make the new video.

 

[Megamang]

To me, it looked like you were autocanceling the aerial and then turning around and crouching very quickly.

 

[Pixel_]

To me, it looked like you were autocanceling the aerial and then turning around and crouching very quickly.

Yeah, that's basically it, but there's a noticeable distance that you go backwards. Also, as I'll say in my next video, if you walk a little bit backwards, you seem to get a weird boost for a short amount of time, and the crouch makes the distance even further.
When you word it that way it sounds really lame, but I'll show what I've found out about it in my next video. Maybe just running away after the autocancel works better, but idk

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yeah, that's basically it, but there's a noticeable distance that you go backwards. Also, as I'll say in my next video, if you walk a little bit backwards, you seem to get a weird boost for a short amount of time, and the crouch makes the distance even further.
When you word it that way it sounds really lame, but I'll show what I've found out about it in my next video. Maybe just running away after the autocancel works better, but idk

It seems similar to Diddy Kong's Supercrawl. Where he takes the momentum from MF when auto cancelled and goes super fast, especially when crawling, for a few seconds.

 

[Pixel_]

It seems similar to Diddy Kong's Supercrawl. Where he takes the momentum from MF when auto cancelled and goes super fast, especially when crawling, for a few seconds.

Sorta yeah, but much less distance, and it affects the walk instead of the crawl.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Sorta yeah, but much less distance, and it affects the walk instead of the crawl.

Why does Diddy Kong get super Crawl? Does anyone know the mechanics behind it? I am mainly curious as to why no one else has it.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Why does Diddy Kong get super Crawl? Does anyone know the mechanics behind it? I am mainly curious as to why no one else has it.

Bowser has it on his custom Side Bs. We called it Waveslashing. Seeing Yoshi do it leads me to believe that it's just air speed being converted to crawl speed after exiting an autocancel lag state. It may not even be a glitch when you consider Yoshi's #1 air speed. Diddy and Bowser are instead converting the special air speed they obtain from their moves. They can even crawl backwards on landing.

 

[A10theHero]

I have a question. If I buffer an air dodge, let's say Mewtwo's F2 air dodge, will there still be a 2 frame delay once Mewtwo gains the ability to air dodge during hitstun? Or will it immediately happen as soon as he reaches that window?

 

[Pixel_]

Dunno if I made it clear, but this only really affects walk speed for a split second, hence it slide before the crouch. I've only gotten it to affect crawl speed this one time, which is a lot more similar to the Super Crawl: https://youtu.be/OhztEyWjeSc
(the sped up walking is also shown in the first few attempts, note how I hold forward for a few more frames to make Sheik glide even further before crouching)

 

[Vipermoon]

I have a question. If I buffer an air dodge, let's say Mewtwo's F2 air dodge, will there still be a 2 frame delay once Mewtwo gains the ability to air dodge during hitstun? Or will it immediately happen as soon as he reaches that window?

If you can start your air dodge on hitstun frame 41, then 41 is frame 1 of the air dodge. Frame 2 is the first intangible frame for M2; so frame 42.

For those who remember, is the thing that there are 41 frames of hitstun or that there are 40 and you act on frame 41?