Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[Zyzix]

I was trying out foxtrot cancels as Marth in training mode when suddenly by accident I slid forward (and even through my target) all while performing a grounded shieldbreaker in the same direction as the slide.

Can't seem to reproduce it, any ideas?
I'm thinking I might've by accident foxtrotted into a perfect pivot into B-reverse/wavebounce, but I'm not decent enough at inputs to put that to the test.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I was trying out foxtrot cancels as Marth in training mode when suddenly by accident I slid forward (and even through my target) all while performing a grounded shieldbreaker in the same direction as the slide.

Can't seem to reproduce it, any ideas?
I'm thinking I might've by accident foxtrotted into a perfect pivot into B-reverse/wavebounce, but I'm not decent enough at inputs to put that to the test.

Well you can do a perfect pivot into a Neutral-B-reverse which does make you slide forwards in the same direction as the initial dash while performing grounded neutral special in the same direction, but I'm not sure that this is the slide you're looking for, because it's not going through the opponent. Just running and doing a neutral special gives a much better slide in any case, a slide that will incidentally make it through opponents.

 

[Darklink401]

I was told, after I posted this, it used to work on luigi pre-patch
But I guess some people didn't know it applied to a lot more characters so I figured I'd post it here

This certainly is odd.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I was told, after I posted this, it used to work on luigi pre-patch
But I guess some people didn't know it applied to a lot more characters so I figured I'd post it here

This certainly is odd.

Omg... it works on the edge of platforms too, not just the edge of the stage.
(Oh and it works for Link's D-throw too. Today is a good day.)

 

[Vipermoon]

Omg... it works on the edge of platforms too, not just the edge of the stage.
(Oh and it works for Link's D-throw too. Today is a good day.)

So do we know why this happens?

 

[Locke 06]

Also, I think this might be a new thing of this patch? I tried DI'ing Sheik's dthrow at the ledge and SDI'd around the corner and stage spiked myself. Never happened before, but I also never played Bayonetta before.

This is really awful game design. If people needed more incentive to play by the ledge.

 

[Pikabunz]

I was told, after I posted this, it used to work on luigi pre-patch
But I guess some people didn't know it applied to a lot more characters so I figured I'd post it here

This certainly is odd.

This was a thing in Brawl. It was pretty useful for Pikachu to extend his dthrow chain grab.

Also, I think this might be a new thing of this patch? I tried DI'ing Sheik's dthrow at the ledge and SDI'd around the corner and stage spiked myself. Never happened before, but I also never played Bayonetta before.

This is really awful game design.

I've seen this happen before the last patch. It's just a thing that happens with Sheik's dthrow on certain characters near the ledge. This also happened in Brawl with Ness' dthrow.

 

[Darklink401]

Also, I think this might be a new thing of this patch? I tried DI'ing Sheik's dthrow at the ledge and SDI'd around the corner and stage spiked myself. Never happened before, but I also never played Bayonetta before.

This is really awful game design. If people needed more incentive to play by the ledge.

Something like this?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Also, I think this might be a new thing of this patch? I tried DI'ing Sheik's dthrow at the ledge and SDI'd around the corner and stage spiked myself. Never happened before, but I also never played Bayonetta before.

This is really awful game design. If people needed more incentive to play by the ledge.

In the previous patch, Mewtwo could Dthrow at the ledge and get it to true into Fair and Dtilt. He cannot do that anywhere else on the stage besides platforms and the ledge.

 

[Horseketchup]

Does anyone know how many frames regular turnarounds generally take in this game? Is there still a tilt/smash turnaround distinction like Melee? I was wondering if after a bair on someone's shield, how many extra frames a turnaround jab would add compared to a normal jab facing the same direction, or if that info is character-specific.

I realized there's all this detailed info out there for different Melee turnarounds, but very little for the other smash games.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Does anyone know how many frames regular turnarounds generally take in this game? Is there still a tilt/smash turnaround distinction like Melee? I was wondering if after a bair on someone's shield, how many extra frames a turnaround jab would add compared to a normal jab facing the same direction, or if that info is character-specific.

I realized there's all this detailed info out there for different Melee turnarounds, but very little for the other smash games.

I fear I won't be able to answer your question because I don't remember these turnaround frames in melee, but just so we're clear, are you at first talking about the run turnaround animation? Also known as "pivot"? That should still be character specific, but you know since Brawl you could jump to get out of pivot.

As for turning around from a stationary or walking position, I've not heard of a tilt/smash distinction for this game (was it really 11 in melee? I don't remember that at all). I'm pretty sure you need to have just one frame of that to play out before you can jab the other direction. Or 0 if you managed to press turn around and jab at the same frame. It's one of the two. So if you Bair and turn around to jab your target, it should come out as fast as your fingers can move.

 

[Vipermoon]

Pretty sure you can't do turnaround and an attack at the same frame. If you're really fast you'll get the frame after but that's also probably hard to consistently do

 

[Yikarur]

A turnarround lasts 1 frame. You can turnarround in the first frame and do an action immediately in the next frame. There are actions that you need to do a turnarround for and actions that you can just input without turnarrounding.

If you want to buffer a turnarround action you have to buffer the turnarround (either holding in one direction since before the buffering window, or smash the stick in the direction during the buffer window and let it return to neutral before the buffer window has ended) and then you have to time the next action. You cannot buffer a turnarround + an action. But you can buffer any turnarround action that does not need the turnarround itself.
There is one restriction: If you do a dtilt you cannot do a turnarround by holding. You have to do a dash input in the opposite direction to "escape" the dtilt animation and do a turnarround.

No Turnarround necessary (you can buffer these):
- Ftilt
- Fsmash
- all specials

Turnarround necessary (you can not buffer these):
- Grab
- Jab
- Dtilt
- Uptilt
- Upsmash
- Dsmash

 

[Horseketchup]

A turnarround last 1 frame. You can turnarround in the first frame and do an action immediately in the next frame. There are actions that you need to do a turnarround for and actions that you can just input without turnarrounding.

If you want to buffer a turnarround action you have to buffer the turnarround (either holding in one direction since before the buffering window, or smash the stick in the direction during the buffer window and let it return to neutral before the buffer window has ended) and then you have to time the next action. You cannot buffer a turnarround + an action. But you can buffer any turnarround action that does not need the turnarround itself.
There is one restriction: If you do a dtilt you cannot do a turnarround by holding. You have to do a dash input in the opposite direction to "escape" the dtilt animation and do a turnarround.

No Turnarround necessary (you can buffer these):
- Ftilt
- Fsmash
- all specials

Turnarround necessary (you can not buffer these):
- Grab
- Jab
- Dtilt
- Uptilt
- Upsmash
- Dsmash

Wow, this is more detailed than i was expecting, thanks for the explanation!

 

[Equin0x]

Does anyone know what, if anything, influences whether a character gets grab releases in the air or on the ground? I asked around but found no answers.

This curiosity arose after watching Dabuz consistently get air grab releases at Genesis, but then shortly after watching a Yoshi player consistently get ground grab releases.

 

[Lavani]

Does anyone know what, if anything, influences whether a character gets grab releases in the air or on the ground? I asked around but found no answers.

This curiosity arose after watching Dabuz consistently get air grab releases at Genesis, but then shortly after watching a Yoshi player consistently get ground grab releases.

If the character's held off the ground, they'll be air released. Otherwise, they'll be ground released.

Air release can be forced by grabbing a character out of the air, with some exception; if their feet still touch the ground, they'll still be ground released.

If they escape during a pummel, they'll always be ground released.

 

[Equin0x]

Thank you!

Since I'm here, I had heard recently that the invincibility frames on regular ledge get-up decreases with higher %. I'm really skeptical of this, but is it true?

 

[Kofu]

Thank you!

Since I'm here, I had heard recently that the invincibility frames on regular ledge get-up decreases with higher %. I'm really skeptical of this, but is it true?

IIRC it's not ledge getup but ledge hold time where invincibility decreases with time. I don't think detailed research has been done on exact frames. Would be useful, though!

 

[Equin0x]

IIRC it's not ledge getup but ledge hold time where invincibility decreases with time. I don't think detailed research has been done on exact frames. Would be useful, though!

Kurogane Hammer has a page for the frame data of each ledge getup, I was just wondering if that was just the data for a character at 0% or if my local commentators were completely wrong.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

To anybody that reads in-game hitbox data, do we know approximate distances that a single unit covers? As in, if a move's hitbox is pushed forward one unit, how much is the distance? The only unit of measurement I know of is the squares on Omega Windy Hill Zone

IIRC it's not ledge getup but ledge hold time where invincibility decreases with time. I don't think detailed research has been done on exact frames. Would be useful, though!

I remember talking about it just a few weeks back. I-frames for ledge hold is supposed to be between 20 and 120 frames. And the factors are how much damage you've taken and how long you've been in the air before grabbing the ledge. That much should be accurate. I also made the assertion based on a few imperfect tests that having 100% damage will drop the amount of I-frames you would have gotten at 0% damage by half, but it's hardly dropped any further past that point.

 

[Megamang]

Do you have more I frames for being in the air longer or for shorter?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Do you have more I frames for being in the air longer or for shorter?

longer.

 

[Pikabunz]

IIRC it's not ledge getup but ledge hold time where invincibility decreases with time. I don't think detailed research has been done on exact frames. Would be useful, though!

INT((air frames x 0.2 + 64) - (damage% x 44/120))

24 ≦ [invincible time] ≦ 124 [F]
0 ≦ [air time] ≦ 300 [F]
0 ≦ [damage%] ≦ 120 [%]

http://sixriver.web.fc2.com/ssb4/memo.htm

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

But don't forget, the other factor determining how much invulnerability frames you get while holding the ledge is how long it has been since you were last in hitlag/stun. I've posted about this before:
http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-41#post-19963631
http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-61#post-20670559

... in fact, that could probably just replace 'air time' entirely. Couldn't it?

 

[Pikabunz]

Getting hit resets your air time.

 

[Vipermoon]

http://smashboards.com/threads/mechanics-techniques-discussion.368206/page-62#post-20693883

Can we mention this one separately in the OP?

 

[Lavani]

To anybody that reads in-game hitbox data, do we know approximate distances that a single unit covers? As in, if a move's hitbox is pushed forward one unit, how much is the distance? The only unit of measurement I know of is the squares on Omega Windy Hill Zone

16 units (ZSS jab; X=13 size=3, not tied to bones) is about 2 blocks on Mushroomy Kingdom Ω (3DS), so 1 unit should be 1/8 of a block (i.e. "small enough for me to first pass off Vanish hitbox nerf as placebo")

The omega is 20 blocks long, I'm not sure if there's a parallel on Wii U.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I was testing some stuff out and I noticed that Characters get less knockback when they are crouching. I think it has something to do with the animation too because I tried it with the opponent crouching and with the opponent on the floor holding down and they only lived longer when they were crouching

 

[IsmaR]

Ordinarily, this would be better asked in any of the numerous Q/A threads rather than making a thread for it.

But yes, this has always been a thing.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Crouch_cancel

 

[Daymaster]

EDIT: Carp, I need to look before I post. Is there a way to delete posts here?

 

[Jeronado]

Is there any sort of Hitstun calculator for Smash 4? If there isn't would anyone be able to tell me what the knockback formula is for Smash 4?

 

[Jams.]

Is there any sort of Hitstun calculator for Smash 4? If there isn't would anyone be able to tell me what the knockback formula is for Smash 4?

I can't answer your first question unfortunately, but @A_Kae generously provided us these knockback formulas a while back. Most moves in this game use percent based knock. Weight based knockback is only for multihit moves to ensure they link (ie. the middle hits of ZSS upb).

Knockback = ((((((t+d)/10+(((t+d)*d)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b)
Weight Based Knockback = ((((((10/10)+((10*s)/20))*(200/(w+100))*1.4)+18)*(g/100))+b)

t = Target Damage
d = Attack Damage
w = Target Weight
g = Knockback Growth
s = Weight Based Knockback
b = Base Knockback

Hitstun frames is the knockback value * 0.4 (rounded down).

Example 1: Marth's tipped forward smash hitting another Marth at 40%:

t = 40
d = 18
w = 90
g = 80
b = 80

Since it's not a move with weight based knockback, the regular knockback formula is used.

((((((40+18)/10+(((40+18)*18)/20))*(200/(90+100))*1.4)+18)*(80/100))+80) = 162.779

Example 2: Diddy Kong's jab 1 hitting Meta Knight.

w = 80
g = 100
s = 24
b = 0

Since the move has weight based knockback, the weight based knockback formula is used

((((((10/10)+((10*24)/20))*(200/(80+100))*1.4)+18)*(100/100))+0) = 38.222

 

[Sonicninja115]

Does the 2 frame ledge vulnerability only apply when recovering from below the ledge? I have heard people saying that recovering from above with Shiek negates this, and I was wondering if this is cast wide. (Mewtwo specifically)

 

[Vipermoon]

Does the 2 frame ledge vulnerability only apply when recovering from below the ledge? I have heard people saying that recovering from above with Shiek negates this, and I was wondering if this is cast wide. (Mewtwo specifically)

Yes, @TheReflexWonder made a video about that once. Snapping from the side/above doesn't have vulnerability

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yes, @TheReflexWonder made a video about that once. Snapping from the side/above doesn't have vulnerability

can you give me a link? I looked through his videos and didn't see it...

 

[Rawbinator]

can you give me a link? I looked through his videos and didn't see it...

How about this video from Trifroze, incidentally using Mewtwo? I can't watch with sound ATM but I think it's what you're looking for
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A1qk4Qo6ZU

 

[Vipermoon]

Or maybe it was that video I was thinking of^^ Lol it's usually reflex making them

 

[Sonicninja115]

Or maybe it was that video I was thinking of^^ Lol it's usually reflex making them

that video is proving the 2 frame vulnerability, not showing that there isn't a two frame if you autosnap from above...

 

[Lavani]

While failing to replicate this with , I accidentally stumbled on what I think is what you actually discovered: when snapping to the ledge from above, the ledgesnap is fully invincible.

It seems that as long as you're above the ledge's horizontal plane, your ledgesnap is safe (which clears this up for me).

Demonstration with Falco Phase and Farore's Wind:

Old knowledge, but not listed on here and utilized in a way I haven't seen anyone do:

If you snap to the ledge from above, you have no vulnerable frames. You can do this from below the ledge if you hold down to prevent your ledgesnap until you pass it.

Maybe those posts'll clear things up.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Maybe those posts'll clear things up.

Thanks!