Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[A_Kae]

There isn't an "on-hit frame advantage" calculator or formula, right? The Marth boards have data for on-hit advantages which should be related to hit stun, but I don't know how you get on-hit advantages from hit stun if that's even how you get on-hit frame advantages.

On hit frame advantage is just hitstun minus the remaining frames of the attack.

Example: Marth's Jab 1 does 24 frames of hitstun at 0%, and hits on frame 5 with 28 total frames.

(24-(28-5))=1

Edit: There's not a public calculator that I'm aware for this.

 

[Ffamran]

On hit frame advantage is just hitstun minus the remaining frames of the attack.

Example: Marth's Jab 1 does 24 frames of hitstun at 0%, and hits on frame 5 with 28 total frames.

(24-(28-5))=1

So, to make this a bit more complicated, (h-(t-s)) = on-hit frame advantage.

h = hit stun
t = total frames
s = startup

Also, one more question, whose weight did you use to calculate Marth's hit stun? I ended up using Mario, since, well, Mario...

 

[A_Kae]

So, to make this a bit more complicated, (h-(t-s)) = on-hit frame advantage.

h = hit stun
t = total frames
s = startup

Also, one more question, whose weight did you use to calculate Marth's hit stun? I ended up using Mario, since, well, Mario...

S should be the frame that the attack hits, not the startup, but it's otherwise correct. Startup usually means the frames before the attack hits, right? So if it hits on F5, it's four frames of startup.

I just used Marth for weight.

If you want, I can send you the calculator I made for the Marth data. With whatever changes you want for formatting or weight values.

 

[Ffamran]

Startup includes the first active frame, right? ... See this is why I like standards... THE US SHOULD USE THE METRIC SYSTEM! Now that I got that off my chest... I used a KoF XIII - yes, I like KoF very much - frame data spread sheet for reference and it specified startup as having the first active frame. Before that, I used hit frame(s) from BJN39's Zelda frame data which I still do for simplified stuff so to show stuff like the hit frames of jab is 2-4 or jab hits on frame 2-4.

I think the Shoryuken wiki... thing... has startup without the first active frame. I could argue for either, but having startup include the first active frame is simple. A move with 5 frames of startup is not active until the 5th frame and there you go, 5 frames of startup. OR, you could argue that a move with 4 frames of startup is not active until the 5th frame as it takes 4 frames before the move is active. "s" could also just be "start frame"...

Then there's the whole total frames, IASA, and FAF. I think only Smash uses IASA and FAF. Traditional fighting games just use total frames and assume you know that the next frame is when you act which make sense. So, saying something makes you commit to 30 frames means you commit to 30 frames before you can act on the 31st frame.

As for weight, I just wanted an average which Mario is kind of not unless you sum Bowser and Jigglypuff's and divide them. If you sum the entire roster and consider the Mii Fighters are 3 separate characters, it's Palutena and Duck Hunt's at 91, but if you don't it's Robin, Roy, Sonic, and Pac-Man at 95. Marth's is fine since he's at 90, but using Falco's would skew stuff since his weight is 82. If I did Fox's hit stun and stuff, I probably wouldn't have used Fox's weight of 79. Still, it's Mario and he's been deemed the punching bag since 64.

For calculator stuff, well, I could always use the search function and I could always lurk the Marth and Lucina boards since they're usually on-point with frame data stuff. Zelda boards too, but BJN39 hasn't done hit stun and frame advantages to my knowledge.

 

[A_Kae]

Startup sometimes includes the first active frame. And sometimes it doesn't. The smash community is horribly inconsistent with lots of terms. I think typical conventions in fighting games is to have startup, active, and recovery periods of attacks, but I don't know for sure. S works as start frame.

Also, smash people use total frames but they call them IASA. IASA and FAF are supposed to mean the same thing, but everyone just uses IASA as total instead.

That whole weight issue is why I just decided to use Marth. And like you said, he's close enough to average (or just an average, if not necessary the average) that it doesn't matter much.

The reason why I offered my calculator is because getting hitstun for multiple percent ranges takes forever by hand. For Marth, because I used 0-200 in steps of 25, and because he has at least two unique hitboxes per attack, that's 18 calculations per attack. Falco's going to probably have less because he doesn't have a sweet/sourspot on everything, and you might choose to do less of a range, but it still takes a long time. My calculator takes in the data for a hitbox once and give the data for predefined range of damage in smashboards table format. It makes the whole thing take much less time.

 

[Shaya]

Are Quarter Circle DI and/or Half Circle DI still present in S4?

The inputs themselves are still going to get registered the same, and it's likely the most humanly efficient way to add "SDI" inputs into something.
But SDI in this game is a lot worse than it was.

 

[Ffamran]

Startup sometimes includes the first active frame. And sometimes it doesn't. The smash community is horribly inconsistent with lots of terms. I think typical conventions in fighting games is to have startup, active, and recovery periods of attacks, but I don't know for sure. S works as start frame.

I used this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...QqJew9EVZYVCR7F2aSrzhh65U/edit#gid=1551678957, as reference for the condensed version of Falco's frame datasheet.

Also, I am not starting "s" and "start frames". We've enough convoluted terms. I mean, do we seriously need "Hoo-Hah"? It's Diddy's D-throw to Uair, why does it need a special name? Whatever... The on-hit frame advantage could just be (h-(t-s)) or (h-(t-f)) where "s" is startup or "f" is first active frame. I just used letters that correspond to whatever variable. Hell, we could do (v-(k-w)) just 'cause.

Also, smash people use total frames but they call them IASA. IASA and FAF are supposed to mean the same thing, but everyone just uses IASA as total instead.

... I thought FAF was the first frame after total frames while IASA is more like when you can do another action instead of having to wait for the first frame after total frames aka FAF like how you can jump out of Roy's Fair earlier that you can do another aerial.

The KoF reference had it where total frames was "startup + active + recovery - 1". Total frames to me is the total frames of an animation which when applied to moves, includes their active states, recovery, etc, but not the frame after the move which is kind of unrelated to it since the next action is freely chosen. Recovery frames, I think, is the amount of frames before you can act again. Essentially, it's the amount of frames a move is no longer active plus the 1 frame until you can act.

That whole weight issue is why I just decided to use Marth. And like you said, he's close enough to average (or just an average, if not necessary the average) that it doesn't matter much.

Eh, no comment here. It's just when I did Falco's KO percents, I used Pit... Pit's air speed, fall speed, physics aren't exactly average, but they were close enough 'cause weight. I'm probably going to redo Falco's KO percents when I get a Wii U, but kenniky already did them along with some other characters.

The reason why I offered my calculator is because getting hitstun for multiple percent ranges takes forever by hand. For Marth, because I used 0-200 in steps of 25, and because he has at least two unique hitboxes per attack, that's 18 calculations per attack. Falco's going to probably have less because he doesn't have a sweet/sourspot on everything, and you might choose to do less of a range, but it still takes a long time. My calculator takes in the data for a hitbox once and give the data for predefined range of damage in smashboards table format. It makes the whole thing take much less time.

Wait, you have an actual calculator programmed for this? I could probably write a basic script for that... but I'm lazy.

If so, then having this on-hand, like, slapped onto the OP of the Character Data thread or here would be great. Just redirect people to the OP since hit stun and knockback are mechanics of this game. Yeah, Marth's... I looked at the Marth frame data you did and there were a lot of hitboxes.

 

[A_Kae]

Also, I am not starting "s" and "start frames". We've enough convoluted terms. I mean, do we seriously need "Hoo-Hah"? It's Diddy's D-throw to Uair, why does it need a special name? Whatever... The on-hit frame advantage could just be (h-(t-s)) or (h-(t-f)) where "s" is startup or "f" is first active frame. I just used letters that correspond to whatever variable. Hell, we could do (v-(k-w)) just 'cause.

I wasn't suggesting having those be real terms, I was just agreeing with you for the formula, what s would mean. I share your dislike/hatred of all of those needless terms, and don't see that point of hoo-hah. Or any of the other names.

... I thought FAF was the first frame after total frames while IASA is more like when you can do another action instead of having to wait for the first frame after total frames aka FAF like how you can jump out of Roy's Fair earlier that you can do another aerial.

FAF and IASA both are supposed to mean the first frame that you can act. It's just no one actually uses IASA like that. Roy's fair is just that move ends before the landing lag window is over, you can definitely use another aerial when you can jump. I've seen IASA also be used for stuff like jab transitions, but that's just the same term inconsistency with other stuff. But IASA and FAF mean the same thing. 1 frame after the total frames.

Wait, you have an actual calculator programmed for this? I could probably write a basic script for that... but I'm lazy.

If so, then having this on-hand, like, slapped onto the OP of the Character Data thread or here would be great. Just redirect people to the OP since hit stun and knockback are mechanics of this game. Yeah, Marth's... I looked at the Marth frame data you did and there were a lot of hitboxes.

Well, it's just a basic C script, not anything fancy, but yes.

Maybe I should make that stuff public.

Edit: Here's the source code of the calculator I made for on hit advantage:

Spoiler

#include <stdio.h>

int main() {

   char loop;

   do {

      float attackDamage = 0;
      float targetDamage = 0;
      float targetWeight = 0;
      float baseKnockback = 0;
      float scaledKnockback = 0;
      int advantage = 0;
      int total = 0;
      int start = 0;
      int loops = 0;

      float knockback = 0;
      int hitstun = 0;

      advantage = 0;
      total = 0;
      start = 0;

      printf("\n\n");

      printf("Attack Damage: ");
      scanf("%f", &attackDamage);

      printf("Base Knockback: ");
      scanf("%f", &baseKnockback);

      printf("Knockback Growth: ");
      scanf("%f", &scaledKnockback);

      printf("Total Frames: ");
      scanf("%d", &total);
      printf("First Active Frame: ");
      scanf("%d", &start);

      printf("\n[RIGHT]---Advantage[/RIGHT]");

      while(loops<9) {
         knockback = ((((((targetDamage + attackDamage) / 10) + (((targetDamage + attackDamage) * attackDamage) / 20)) * (200 / (targetWeight + 100)) * 1.4) + (18)) * (scaledKnockback / 100)) + baseKnockback;
         hitstun = knockback * .4;

      advantage = hitstun - (total-start);
      printf("|%d",advantage );
      targetDamage = targetDamage + 25;
      loops++;

      }

      loop = 'y';

   } while(loop == 'y');
   return 0;
}

 

[Ffamran]

I wasn't suggesting having those be real terms, I was just agreeing with you for the formula, what s would mean. I share your dislike/hatred of all of those needless terms, and don't see that point of hoo-hah. Or any of the other names.

I know; I just don't want to be responsible for stuff like that. I mean, would you like a new unit/term called the "Ffamran"? Final Fantasy XII fans would be ****** and confused.

FAF and IASA both are supposed to mean the first frame that you can act. It's just no one actually uses IASA like that. Roy's fair is just that move ends before the landing lag window is over, you can definitely use another aerial when you can jump. I've seen IASA also be used for stuff like jab transitions, but that's just the same term inconsistency with other stuff. But IASA and FAF mean the same thing. 1 frame after the total frames.

Ugh... Really? ... Brain... Hurts...

Spoiler: Unnecessary rant

Why can't we have things like "special cancel-able" which only Ryu has, but still. Jab canceling technically isn't even a thing since you don't actually cancel anything (unless you're Ryu). It's more like jab, wait, do something else. You're waiting for the jab to end; there's no cancel. If anything, jab mixup makes more sense, but even still, you can just tell someone to just jab and wait for it to finish or something like jab to Ftilt. It doesn't help that Smash total frames for jabs are horribly long compared to other games. Kyo's jab acted at frame 18 - can't remember - in KoF XIII isn't bad when you consider it's a frame 5 move which isn't like Falco's jab being frame 2 and you can't act until frame 22. Why? 'Cause apparently the reason why Falco was so broken in Brawl was because he was broken. Oh, heaven forbid it was your fault, developers for giving him stupid-*** lasers in that game and allowing chain-grabs to exist. Oh, and because not a lot of moves are quicker than frame 4 in KoF XIII from what I glanced.

And this is why Falco has a frame 8 grab, a frame 8 dash attack, 58 on the ground and 49 in the air of total frames for Blaster, and a jab with 22 total frames. Oh, and let's include a frame 16 Dair since everyone knows a slow-moving character can make use of a telegraphed Dair like that. Meanwhile, Fox and his abusive frame 4 dash attack, patched Blaster end lag, and patched, but still good jab. Falco used to be able to act at frame 17 for jab 1 and frame 20 for jab 2. That's basically 1 frame slower than Fox's, I believe, pre-patch 1.1.0. Now, he can't act until frame 23 and 25, well, 33 since you have to include the transition from jab 1 to 2. That's 5 added frames each and it hurts when you have that slow of a grab, so jab mixups aren't exactly fun. Then we have Samus who can't act until frame 18 with her low knockback jab 1... Seriously, make it into an actual jab like how boxer use their jabs. In other words, let her act at frame 16 or even 14 and while you're at it, shave off 3 frames of Falco's jab total frames. Geez.

Well, it's just a basic C script, not anything fancy, but yes.

Maybe I should make that stuff public.

Edit: Here's the source code of the calculator I made for on hit advantage:

Spoiler

#include <stdio.h>

int main() {

   char loop;

   do {

      float attackDamage = 0;
      float targetDamage = 0;
      float targetWeight = 0;
      float baseKnockback = 0;
      float scaledKnockback = 0;
      int advantage = 0;
      int total = 0;
      int start = 0;
      int loops = 0;

      float knockback = 0;
      int hitstun = 0;

      advantage = 0;
      total = 0;
      start = 0;

      printf("\n\n");

      printf("Attack Damage: ");
      scanf("%f", &attackDamage);

      printf("Base Knockback: ");
      scanf("%f", &baseKnockback);

      printf("Knockback Growth: ");
      scanf("%f", &scaledKnockback);

      printf("Total Frames: ");
      scanf("%d", &total);
      printf("First Active Frame: ");
      scanf("%d", &start);

      printf("\n[RIGHT]---Advantage[/RIGHT]");

      while(loops<9) {
         knockback = ((((((targetDamage + attackDamage) / 10) + (((targetDamage + attackDamage) * attackDamage) / 20)) * (200 / (targetWeight + 100)) * 1.4) + (18)) * (scaledKnockback / 100)) + baseKnockback;
         hitstun = knockback * .4;

      advantage = hitstun - (total-start);
      printf("|%d",advantage );
      targetDamage = targetDamage + 25;
      loops++;

      }

      loop = 'y';

   } while(loop == 'y');
   return 0;
}

Outside of the Marth and Lucina boards, I don't think any of the boards have hit stun and advantage data. Might be useful and nice to help everyone out... Maybe I should tag BJN39...

 

[san.]

There's definitely a jab cancel for some characters. They need to crouch, turnaround, etc. to get a few quicker frames to cancel out the next jab triggering.

If you want to run a script, I definitely recommend MATLAB (or even Python) since it only takes like 2-3 lines of code lol.

 

[busken]

What's the FAF if somebody does a tech in place, tech roll backwards, or tech roll forwards?

 

[A_Kae]

What's the FAF if somebody does a tech in place, tech roll backwards, or tech roll forwards?

Looking at mastercore, it seems to be 27 for standing, and 41 for rolls. Intangibility is 1-20.

Not every character has the FAF listed in mastercore, but all the ones that do have it as those. It's probably consistent across every character. Intangibility is.

 

[busken]

could easily go in running for mod with all ur contributions thanks keep it up.

 

[Illuminose]

some tech rolls are slower than others I thought, I doubt the faf is consistent.

 

[Darklink401]

Not sure of how usable or viable this is

if you do a dash in place, you can do a dash attack or dash grab, even after it looks like you stopped dashing. Sort of like a delayed dash attack/grab.

Might be useful for mindgames?

Seems pretty safe as well, since a dash in place is pretty noncommital, it just makes your opponent react.

 

[Shaya]

Has anyone does testing about the speed of acting out of a run? What's the fastest way to act out of a run? etc.

While running you can input a turn around and then input an fsmash (in the reverse direction only though I believe). you can release the stick and tap forward (like a fox trot input) and fsmash out of that. However I'm not sure if these are acting as fast as they could be (bad timing) or maybe there's a better way?

If you hold down while running into something this also seems to be relatively fast but I wonder if it's actually any faster than just letting go of the stick.

Does anyone have ideas/thoughts on this?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You could set Training Mode to "hold L to advance, 1/4x speed" and try to find the earliest frame where pressing Shield would make a shield come out. Every tap of the L button is two frames, and if the shield is visible, that means it's Frame 2 or later of the shield.

 

[Shaya]

oh, shielding out of a run is instant/obvious. I mean my ability to do something like a tilt, dsmash/etc out of it.
Using specials seems to be instant/easy out of run. But everything else, what's the fastest way? Is there any faster way?

In Melee, we called it crouch cancelling (the other type, lol) or run cancel crouch or something. In what I'm doing it seems like inputting down frees you up to act, but i'm not sure how fast and if it is actually faster than just returning the stick to neutral and timing something.

 

[busken]

These all are your options while running. Depending on what you want to do, you can use one these options and cancel them into another. Sheik can cancel her needles into anything, but she is the only case. It's really character specific. Universally, your best option is shielding even though you suffer shield drop lag. Some character with fast skid stops like Villager, can even slow run reducing his already fast skid making him act even quicker but you would have to slow down. Just experiment and see what works.

• Jump
• Dash Attack
• Dash Grab
• Any Special
• Shield
• Turn
• Pivot Grab
• Skid

 

[Shaya]

Well from testing I have just done

If you let go of the analog before pressing shield you'll go into the skid animation, which cannot be instantly shielded out of (good to know).
In the initial frames of skid you still are able to do any of the above actions bar shielding it seems (!!)
After a short period of time (quite short), you're reducing down to out of dash options only it seems.
Now here's the cool thing.
If you try pressing just about anything bar specials, you'll be buffering something that can still be "done" (dash attack), this is the main question/issue I was having.
So what can you do?
Well from what I gather, if you press either down, forward or shield (something which won't cause any early skid options to happen) and near immediately release you'll now be able to buffer anything for when your skid animation stops, you won't get a dash attack/dash grab.


So depending on skid animation length's I guess (I doubt people have gotten frame data for this across the cast yet) + at least I learned a new buffer trick (+ what's the most efficient way to do things).
But yeah now I know... probably best to be in run, let go of stick, press shield and then immediately let go into your preferred action.

On further inspection there's probably little point to doing forward/down/shield if you have the timing down. Just make sure to briefly wait; doing those actions only help "muscle memory"/timing (if not getting in the way). I noted this just because of trying to "jab" out of a skid.

Also there seems to be a state between dashing into running where you can still forward roll (but not "stutter step fsmash"). Which you definitely can't do in a late run

 

[BSP]

Just in case it hasn't been posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8rpifNUEYo

I was wondering for the longest time whether or not people could tech if you hit them while they're doing a ledge regrab, but I guess the answer is no since you'd already be touching a wall and your hitlag would "sync" with your recoil lag.

Anyway, nice to know I haven't been a complete fraud for every missed tech.

Nutshell of the video:
1. you can't input a tech while in hitlag. You'll fail.
2. If you are touching a wall when you get hit, you can't tech.

Edit: I would guess this also means that if you get launched towards the ledge during your 1 frame of vulnerability during ledge snaps, you can't tech that either.

 

[Powerman293]

Just in case it hasn't been posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8rpifNUEYo

I was wondering for the longest time whether or not people could tech if you hit them while they're doing a ledge regrab, but I guess the answer is no since you'd already be touching a wall and your hitlag would "sync" with your recoil lag.

Anyway, nice to know I haven't been a complete fraud for every missed tech.

Nutshell of the video:
1. you can't input a tech while in hitlag. You'll fail.
2. If you are touching a wall when you get hit, you can't tech.

Edit: I would guess this also means that if you get launched towards the ledge during your 1 frame of vulnerability during ledge snaps, you can't tech that either.

Huh. I didn't know that. I only just learned that players could tech wall spikes (again, newbie here) so knowing that being too close to the wall does not allow for a tech is a very interesting design that I should consider.

 

[Pikabunz]

Just in case it hasn't been posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8rpifNUEYo

I was wondering for the longest time whether or not people could tech if you hit them while they're doing a ledge regrab, but I guess the answer is no since you'd already be touching a wall and your hitlag would "sync" with your recoil lag.

Anyway, nice to know I haven't been a complete fraud for every missed tech.

Nutshell of the video:
1. you can't input a tech while in hitlag. You'll fail.
2. If you are touching a wall when you get hit, you can't tech.

Edit: I would guess this also means that if you get launched towards the ledge during your 1 frame of vulnerability during ledge snaps, you can't tech that either.

You can still tech even if you're hanging on the ledge and get hit. You have to be really close to the wall for the tech to not work.

 

[Illuminose]

These all are your options while running. Depending on what you want to do, you can use one these options and cancel them into another. Sheik can cancel her needles into anything, but she is the only case. It's really character specific. Universally, your best option is shielding even though you suffer shield drop lag. Some character with fast skid stops like Villager, can even slow run reducing his already fast skid making him act even quicker but you would have to slow down. Just experiment and see what works.

• Jump
• Dash Attack
• Dash Grab
• Any Special
• Shield
• Turn
• Pivot Grab
• Skid

up smash, roll, pivot up smash, pivot ftilt, pivot dtilt

 

[DanGR]

Up-smash requires an up input, which was already listed. (jump)

Rolling requires a shield input, which was already listed.

etc.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'll likely investigate this myself in the near future, but, I made a video a while back showcasing this shield-break setup that will never happen in a real match:

This would normally only be possible if the opponent holds Shield longer than the minimum amount of time (as in, they should be able to drop it between hits), but certain actions change that and I'm not sure why.

In the video, I actually let go of the Shield button on Falcon while shielding the first hit, but I press and hold Left on the Analog Stick during shield hitlag. This causes Shield SDI in that direction and, apparently, prevents Falcon from dropping his shield for longer than the normal minimum amount of time. Does anyone have a clue as to why that would be?

 

[Dagon97]

Is Double stick DI a thing in this game and is rage a thing in training mode?

 

[Funtroon]

Quick question, how many vulnerability frames a character gets after a normal ledge get up before they can shield?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Vulnerable frames? I think it's one. Maybe two if you can't buffer options out of a ledge climb.

Yes, it's really stupid.

 

[NickRiddle]

Is Double stick DI a thing in this game and is rage a thing in training mode?

No twice.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As far as I understand the thing that people are calling "frame canceling," where you land as you hit an aerial and the landing lag starts while you're still in hitlag freeze, I just wanted someone to clarify a few things for me.

Is it done by landing on the same frame you hit, or the frame afterward? Do you have to fastfall it? Does it work the same way regardless of hitlag multipliers (other than giving you more/less time to cut, of course)?

 

[Pyr]

As far as I understand the thing that people are calling "frame canceling," where you land as you hit an aerial and the landing lag starts while you're still in hitlag freeze, I just wanted someone to clarify a few things for me.

Is it done by landing on the same frame you hit, or the frame afterward? Do you have to fastfall it? Does it work the same way regardless of hitlag multipliers (other than giving you more/less time to cut, of course)?

This post got me thinking... If the game overlaps 2 different mechanics, how can this be abused? "Frame Canceling" and the un-techable hits seem to function the same way: one part of the game (hit-lag) overlaps another (landing lag/tech window). I think I'll lab it out to see if there are other things that are overlappable.

 

[Lavani]

Is it done by landing on the same frame you hit, or the frame afterward? Do you have to fastfall it? Does it work the same way regardless of hitlag multipliers (other than giving you more/less time to cut, of course)?

I...guess technically the frame after? It's weird because you aren't landing the frame you hit them, but at some point during hitlag you land and I don't recall it being perfectly consistent as to when that happens (range of like 1~6 frames into hitlag iirc?). Not sure why it works that way.

You don't have to fastfall.

Hitlag multipliers don't affect how it's performed.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Because Wario D-Air's linking hits hit on every other frame, that seems to suggest that without any setups it should work 50% of the time if you land before the final hit. D-Air has no special hitlag multipliers and causes 5 frames of hitlag on each hit (dealing 1.3% on each hit). What I really want to know is how much extra frame advantage getting this to happen would provide.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Because Wario D-Air's linking hits hit on every other frame, that seems to suggest that without any setups it should work 50% of the time if you land before the final hit. D-Air has no special hitlag multipliers and causes 5 frames of hitlag on each hit (dealing 1.3% on each hit). What I really want to know is how much extra frame advantage getting this to happen would provide.

Wario's dair has 19 frames of landing lag. If there are 5 frames of hitlag on it, normally you'd get the hit (5 frames) then get the landing lag (19 frames). This'd mean that Wario would be in some sort of lag for 24 frames. I'm not sure how long your foe would be stunned for, cause I don't have that calculation on hand.

Anyways, if you "frame cancel" it, the 5 frames of hitlag will also be the first 5 frames of landing lag. This means your total lag time is 19 frames.

Incidentally, this is why I wanted to call it "frame syncing," since you are overlapping two phenomenon... but it looks like the other name stuck.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That's what I thought, but I wanted to make sure. Thanks for the clarification!

Also, I'll 100% behind referring to it as "frame syncing." Perfect sense.

 

[Teshie U]

How does rage affect counters and reflectors? Does the rage of the original attack matter or the rage of the person reflecting/countering?

For example if I (samus) charge shot a Mario with 0% and he capes, will it have less knockback than if he had 150% when he caped it?

 

[Ixisnaugus]

Is there a reference table for shieldstun, and what damage ranges equate to specific values of shieldstun? I think Big O created one a while back? Can I ask for it to be posted again?

 

[thehard]

You can still tech even if you're hanging on the ledge and get hit. You have to be really close to the wall for the tech to not work.

I predict this will be the next commentator misconception repeated ad nauseam, succeeding "he has rage now" and "he got the one-frame ledge punish".

 

[Shaya]

That's what I thought, but I wanted to make sure. Thanks for the clarification!

Also, I'll 100% behind referring to it as "frame syncing." Perfect sense.

I've been calling it perfect landings :V
But it's interesting as a person who claimed to be a nintendo leaker at some stage (was a phony by all accounts) told me that mechanic was called something synch, and this was shortly after it was "discovered".

ZSS' nair is somewhat prolific as a sync, and it (likely because of the hit lag) produces enough frame advantage for her to be able to jab (and up tilt?) before they're out of hit lag/in knockback.
Although I still see it occasionally I really feel like it isn't as frequent as it used to be, placebo?

Going by ZSS nair though, I could hypothesize the interaction is something like "expecting to land next frame" "object moves into it's range during the end moments? of this transition". You can get that monstrous advantage even on hitting shields from what I've seen, but I feel like it's always this dynamic of them either moving into me or me moving away slightly at just the right moment/speed to have it happen. Otherwise I think just by the way her jump animation works its hard to time nairs in a way that will hit characters on the ground the moment before landing without you landing first (she bends her knees during a specific point of the start up, stopping her from landing before the hitbox comes out).