Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[dragontamer]

http://vine.co/v/OXv9wh5qYeb

What kind of magic is this?

Somebody needs to explain this. Can anybody read the moonrunes?

 

[Darklink401]

http://vine.co/v/OXv9wh5qYeb

What kind of magic is this?

If I'm not mistaken, this was done with perfect pivoting. The trick here is, how did he stop midrun without any lag, to be ABLE to P.Pivot?

 

[dragontamer]

Right... Perfect Pivots. The obvious answer. I feel dumb now.

If I'm not mistaken, this was done with perfect pivoting. The trick here is, how did he stop midrun without any lag, to be ABLE to P.Pivot?

Perfect Pivots put you into the neutral state. Its the safest way to stop midrun... and maintains your momentum in the direction of the dash.

The Perfect-Pivot video from lzaw only used A attacks and tilts. I think I just mind farted and forgot that you can obviously use B attacks out of PerfectPivots as well.

 

[-RedX-]

Can't be perfect pivot since he did it during a run.
Unless you can somehow perfect pivot during a run but I doubt that.

 

[Lavani]

Turnaround neutralB (tilt the stick enough to turn around, but not enough to sideB) + B-Reverse. Instructions mention something about the C-stick, but it's doable without it.

It can't be a perfect pivot because perfect pivot is only possible out of dash, not run.

 

[san.]

It's a grounded wavebounce, Lavani described the controls well enough to understand how to perform it.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I think this is how you do the marth thing:
Set your C stick to Special attacks, then go into training and pick big battlefield. Then from the left side of the stage, run to the right from the left ledge and and hit the C-stick diagonally away from you (i.e hit the c stick either to the top left or bottom right when running left to right OR hit the C stick top right or bottom right when running from the right ledge to the left ledge of B.BF)

This how I did it. I managed to do it twice and I'm pretty sure its how you do it cause when I compared it to the video/ vine, it looked pretty much the same.

 

[Azazel]

http://vine.co/v/OXv9wh5qYeb

What kind of magic is this?

After your Dash becomes a Run, you can cancel your run animation with any special and carry a bit or the momentum.
In this case he used neutral B.
He wavebounced neutral B to momentum shift and still be facing forwards.
A wavebounce is a combination of a Turnaround special and a B-reversal.

 

[Azazel]

I think this is how you do the marth thing:
Set your C stick to Special attacks, then go into training and pick big battlefield. Then from the left side of the stage, run to the right from the left ledge and and hit the C-stick diagonally away from you (i.e hit the c stick either to the top left or bottom right when running left to right OR hit the C stick top right or bottom right when running from the right ledge to the left ledge of B.BF)

This how I did it. I managed to do it twice and I'm pretty sure its how you do it cause when I compared it to the video/ vine, it looked pretty much the same.

It is not necessary to B-stick for wavebouncing. In fact i find it easier to not use the C-stick except for side-B, Side-B is insanely easy with B-stick controls

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

http://vine.co/v/OXv9wh5qYeb

What kind of magic is this?

It's a 'wave bounce', just on the ground.

 

[Brickbox]

I heard something about characters having 1 frame of vulnerability while on the ledge. is this true? or is this just some rumor.

any info/videos would be helpful

 

[Locke 06]

How does one interpret knockback/knockback growth values in frame data?

I understand that base knockback is the knockback at 0% and knockback growth is the multiplier that factors in your opponents' %... but to what extent?

Is this an accurate model of knockback? (BKB is X, KBG is Y, Opponent's % is Z, your rage is R)
R * (X+Y/100 * Z) = Knockback

@ Brickbox - page 14 has some stuff on it with a video. However, I don't think it is still completely understood.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I heard something about characters having 1 frame of vulnerability while on the ledge. is this true? or is this just some rumor.

any info/videos would be helpful

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wpax41DC_Y

 

[Lavani]

I'd be very surprised if this is new, but it hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet so why not:

After starting a run, you can let back on the control stick a bit and transition into a "slow run". You're still in the running state, just moving more slowly than a standard run, and interestingly if you try to run off a ledge you'll run in place on the ledge. I don't think there's any practical application for it, but it's amusing.

 

[Darklink401]

I'd be very surprised if this is new, but it hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet so why not:

After starting a run, you can let back on the control stick a bit and transition into a "slow run". You're still in the running state, just moving more slowly than a standard run, and interestingly if you try to run off a ledge you'll run in place on the ledge. I don't think there's any practical application for it, but it's amusing.

Couldn't it be useful for basically not having to time a run to do a dash attack on a recovering foe?

 

[Kofu]

I'd be very surprised if this is new, but it hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet so why not:

After starting a run, you can let back on the control stick a bit and transition into a "slow run". You're still in the running state, just moving more slowly than a standard run, and interestingly if you try to run off a ledge you'll run in place on the ledge. I don't think there's any practical application for it, but it's amusing.

Yeah, this was in Brawl as well. I guess if you wanted to slightly mix up your approach speed you could use it for that.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It was known, though I can't recall if it ever had a name.

 

[Lavani]

Couldn't it be useful for basically not having to time a run to do a dash attack on a recovering foe?

You can do an instant dash attack by sliding the control stick down immediately after starting the dash and pressing A (or just flicking down on the C-stick), so it doesn't even have that as a niche.

@ Kofu @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive figured as much, thanks for the confirmation!

 

[Darklink401]

You can do an instant dash attack by sliding the control stick down immediately after starting the dash and pressing A (or just flicking down on the C-stick), so it doesn't even have that as a niche.

@ Kofu @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive figured as much, thanks for the confirmation!

I know that's a thing, but it IS a failsafe for not sliding off the edge while literally being as close as you can TO the ledge. I can see someone like Link getting use out of it.

S'not the most useful thing in general tho, I agree

 

[Brickbox]

How do I jab cancel 3 hit jabs so that I can combo them together. (combos like foxs jab jab x2 into up smash)
I may use this thread to ask general tech questions, I hope that this is alright

Also if you do the slow run at the left edge and the opponent does ledge get up will the opponent get up on the left or right side of you?

 

[CarbuncleHero]

I tested almost all of the characters to the characters to see which ones keep momentum on their fsmashes, and as a result can do a sliding fsmash out of perfect pivot. The only ones I didn't test are superspeed/lightweight palutena, monado kirby, shulk's custom arts, or any of the miis. I used bunny hood to test for a slide and pokemon stadium's ice physics as well.

The characters that keep momentum after an fsmash are Yoshi, Bowser Jr, Duck Hunt, Pikachu, Olimar, Shulk, and Pac-man.

Bowser Jr doesn't seem to slide all the time, i'm not sure why? Olimar slides while charging his attack, but loses all momentum when he releases. Pac-man and Duck Hunt's slides gradually lose speed, affecting the length of their perfect pivot fsmashes slightly, and maybe this affects Bowser Jr as well but it's hard to tell. Shulks forms slide the same, but speed art and shield art get different lengths out of pivot because of the intial dash speed, i think.

All of these characters, except yoshi, also keep momentum on their downsmashes as well.
All the perfect pivot fsmashes slide about one block on Flatzone X (omega) from the edge.
Yoshi and bowser jr's ppfsmashes basically double the reach of their fsmash; pikachu's and I'm fairly certain Olimar's forward throw link into fsmash; Olimar and Shulk's ppfsmashes can cover nearly a third of final destination! Unfortunately, Shulk's forward throw sends the opponent upwards so his ppfsmash won't ever connect, and Duck Hunt's fsmash is too slow.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

You guys mean like the stickywalk?

Melee vid

Smash 4 3DS Demo vid

Couldn't find a Brawl one, so this might not be it. Also in the second vid he said it wasn't in Brawl so, let me know if this is it or not.

 

[Remzi]

I'd be very surprised if this is new, but it hasn't been mentioned in the thread yet so why not:

After starting a run, you can let back on the control stick a bit and transition into a "slow run". You're still in the running state, just moving more slowly than a standard run, and interestingly if you try to run off a ledge you'll run in place on the ledge. I don't think there's any practical application for it, but it's amusing.

I ran into this back in Brawl but I believe it predates that game as well:

http://smashboards.com/threads/new-ats-zad-slow-run-x-slow-run-ledge-running-ledge-dashing.207061/

 

[Space thing]

Somebody needs to explain this. Can anybody read the moonrunes?

@ Lavani has already explained what this is and how to do it, but I'll give my (somewhat limited) translation anyway.

"Grounded yonshiki? (I believe yonshiki is the Japanese term for wavebounce?) with neutral B discovered by heihei-san. Method: first, set the C-stick to attack. During a running animation (NOT an initial dashing animation, at least that's what I think they mean) do a neutral B move. Then quickly press the analog stick in the direction that the character is facing while hitting the C-stick in the opposite direction. You can do an aerial yonshiki? (wavebounce) the same way too."

I managed to do it with the method that they described a few times, so yea.

 

[Darklink401]

@ Lavani has already explained what this is and how to do it, but I'll give my (somewhat limited) translation anyway.

"Grounded yonshiki? (I believe yonshiki is the Japanese term for wavebounce?) with neutral B discovered by heihei-san. Method: first, set the C-stick to attack. During a running animation (NOT an initial dashing animation, at least that's what I think they mean) do a neutral B move. Then quickly press the analog stick in the direction that the character is facing while hitting the C-stick in the opposite direction. You can do an aerial yonshiki? (wavebounce) the same way too."

I managed to do it with the method that they described a few times, so yea.

What uses can this have?

Cuz it sounds so cool.

 

[Artmastercorey]

Hello quick grabbing question. When I play online I notice people are grabbing me from much further than their hands are able to reach and so fast too. They seem to be able to run across the level and grab almost at blinding speeds like megaman/mario. In my mind they arent close enough to grab but they do anyway. I think they are doing a special grab right? Boost grab? I mainly use toonlink but was wondering do you all use boost grabs on a regular basis for every grab? It seems little unnatural to hit attack before a grab for me at the moment but is that the secret to all these super unatural grabs people are doing from far away?

 

[Kaladin]

Hey all, I feel kinda dumb to ask this, but is it possible to SH with the gamepad without using tap jump? I haven't been able to pull it off. Thanks!

 

[Darklink401]

Hey all, I feel kinda dumb to ask this, but is it possible to SH with the gamepad without using tap jump? I haven't been able to pull it off. Thanks!

Tap x or y quick, without letting your finger linger.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Hello quick grabbing question. When I play online I notice people are grabbing me from much further than their hands are able to reach and so fast too. They seem to be able to run across the level and grab almost at blinding speeds like megaman/mario. In my mind they arent close enough to grab but they do anyway. I think they are doing a special grab right? Boost grab? I mainly use toonlink but was wondering do you all use boost grabs on a regular basis for every grab? It seems little unnatural to hit attack before a grab for me at the moment but is that the secret to all these super unatural grabs people are doing from far away?

Pretty sure its just a matter of certain having a certain characters having a large grab range, while some don't.

 

[Artmastercorey]

Pretty sure its just a matter of certain having a certain characters having a large grab range, while some don't.

so its just the character's dash grab? People arent constantly using boost grabbing then you think? The botton setup seems alittle awkward to constantly boost grab to me at atleast. Pressing attack and then grab.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

so its just the character's dash grab? People arent constantly using boost grabbing then you think? The botton setup seems alittle awkward to constantly boost grab to me at atleast. Pressing attack and then grab.

Are you sing Attack and shield? Just use Z instead, or something like that.

 

[DeliriousPirate]

Noticed someone had already mentioned Dash Smashing, but I read through the board and didn't find anywhere that stated you can smash in the opposite direction as well. It would technically work like a well spaced wavedash tip smash for marth, etc. Dash left, dash left again, and then c stick right before the animation on the second dash comes out. Perfect Pivot smashing is definitely quicker and more efficient, but Reverse Dash Smashing could have its uses as well if enough distance needed to be covered.

 

[Azazel]

Lel, this isn't even a a real infinite. Jab resets allow for almost any follow up, but footstool is not one of them. Your opponent doesn't get Footstool stun if you footstool them during the Get up animation, and you can't footstool stun them afterwards if they simply buffer any action like shielding, attacking, etc.

Spoiler

Funniest thing is that it was even featured on event. lel they are so bad

Spoiler

I kinda felt a bit mad since I already pioneered a real infinite for megaman that fixes the above problem

 

[Azazel]

If anyone is still confused about the buffering system, I'm here to clarify.

1) New buffering now limits the amount of buttons inputs to 1. In brawl you used to be able to do stuff like BDACUS or simple stuff like buffer a double jump > Aerial.
In this game you can't buffer DJ > aerial which can be frustrating, frame perfect Aerial > DJ > aerial is now very difficult.

You also can't buffer multiple directional inputs, So this inhibits the ability to buffer Dash attacks since an instant dash attack is
>(+)

Also because of this, if you attempt to buffer multiple inputs, different inputs have different priority,

Zair > specials > Zcatch/item toss > airdodge > attack > jump

I'd like to update my post about the buffering system as I have a better understanding of it now.

It does no limit the amount of button inputs into one. What I believe it does is save up all the actions that was inputed during the buffering window and executes them all at the same time on the first actionable frame. Then different actions have different priority. I may a create about action priority.

Here's a simplified version of the priority table (it does not include actions such as dash)
Zdrop > specials > Zcatch/item toss > Zair > airdodge > attack > jump

Higher priority beats low priority actions

Spoiler

Example(each numbered bullet shows what frames the inputs are done)

1. +
   
2. 
   
3. +
   
4. 
   
5. 

during the first 5 frames, the actions Fair, Jump, Airdodge, Up-special, Zair was buffered in that order.
On frame 10, the first actionable frame, all the actions all are executed at the same time; but one is allowed to come out, then Priority kicks in. Specials Have the highest priority, so Up-Special would come out in this case, even though it was not the last action that was buffered.

If 2 actions have the same priority, then what was inputted last comes out first

Spoiler

1. +
   
2. +
   
3. +
4. +

All these moves have the same priority, Uair, Dair, Bair, and Fair. All these actions have the same priority so the tie breaker is the order at which they were inputted. Fair was the last input, so Fair comes out.

New explanation for the Link Zdrop always Zair.
I originally though Zair had higher priority, but it has less priority than specials.

I don't understand the relationship of Zair and Zdrop. The only thing i can think of is that they simply are allowed to happen at the same time. It was intentionally programmed in.
Zdrop out prioritizes Specials, and Zair can be done at the same time as Zdrop.

Zdrop + Zair, special. Zdrop > specials. so Zdrop + Zair will come out

 

[TreK]

I just got my hands on Smash Wii U, coming from a competitive Brawl and Project M background

Here are a couple techniques from previous games I haven't seen people mention yet, that I can confirm have made the transition:
-shield drop : while standing on a platform, you can lightly press down to drop through the platform. If you press down too quickly, you'll spotdodge ; if you press down too slowly, you'll tilt your shield. This is useful because it allows you to act out of shield without having to drop it or to jump : the drop animation is 1 frame in other games (idk about Sm4sh).
-wavecrawl : you can crawl backwards while walking to instantly reverse your horizontal momentum. This is most useful on characters with low traction and fast walking speed. Sometimes, it is more effective going from left to right than right to left, or vice versa, depending on your character's crawling animation (it's a bit better in this game since most characters have asymetrical standing positions depending on the way they're facing, so that they're always showing their belly button to the camera, making their crawl animation more or less identical)

Obscure item techniques (I'm a Diddy main in Brawl) :
-You can pick up an item while you're in your run stop animation, it's usually the quickest way to pick up an item far from you.
-instant toss : you can cancel an airdodge into an item toss during the first few frames. This isn't useful if you've got an item in your hand, but since airdodges are able to pick items up, you can use this to toss an item that's not in your hand yet.
-dodge drop : in the very same vein, you can cancel an airdodge into a Z drop by pressing neutral A instead of the C stick. Except the Z drop doesn't actually "cancel" your airdodge, so you keep on dodging. This allows you to drop an item and airdodge simultaneously. In sm4sh, tether characters can't really do this because it'll make them zair instead.
-unnamed dtoss technique : when you dtoss an item while you're on the ground, it is pushed to the side because it instantly enters your character's collision box. Unless you're sliding from a jump cancelled toss, you can choose which side it's going to slide to by holding the opposite side on your control stick. Diddy can use this to push a banana under a shield, in example (yeah, very situationnal, told ya those techniques were a bit obscure =P)

If any of this is known, sorry for wasting your time, I've been focusing on PM mainly for the past few months, so I haven't followed the sm4sh scene as closely as I should've.

 

[LiVeR]

Yet again another video of RED.
This time he's showing some kind of extra custom moveset of each character that didnt make it into the game or was removed (?).
He supposedly achieved this by some kind of cheat code/hack.

Video Description:

通常3つの技しか用意されていませんがチートを使って4つ目の技を出してみました
マリオ以外のキャラに攻撃判定などが付いていないので試作段階で取り止めにしたのでし
ょうか、
にしてもファイアボールが氷属性、ポンプが雷属性なのは謎。
後編-2/2に続きます、チャンネル登録お願いします

Google Translate:

Usually not only provides three tricks , but I tried to put out the four eyes of tricks using a cheat
Do Will was to ceased at the prototype stage because there is such judgment attack in character other than Mario does not have ,
Mysterious fireball ice attribute , pump thunder attribute is given to be set to .
Continue to Part II -2/2 , and Subscribe please

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is there any data on the differences in mechanics of clanking in this game? Someone posted a video of Ness F-Smash clanking with a super-multiplied Villager F-Smash, causing him to go into a really slow clanking animation (that lasted something like four full seconds), which got me thinking about this again.

My theory is that the length of time a character is in their grounded clank animation depends on how much damage the opponent's move would have dealt. If frame advantage is significant toward the high end (if your move deals 6% or 7% more so you both clank), it might be pretty useful for considering risk/reward in close-range situations. Maybe tilts would become a more viable method of fighting potential Jabs and such.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's known that the buffering system in Smash 4 has been changed quite dramatically from how it worked in Brawl. In smash 4 you can only buffer one input during the 10 frame window. If you try to buffer more than one input during that time it looks like the game will ignore all inputs except the last one. What's not being mentioned a lot are the consequences of this. It seems to be no longer possible to buffer aerials during shieldstun because the game only accepts the final input. When somebody hits my shield in Brawl and I try to buffer an aerial during the shield stun animation, the chronological order of inputs for me is always buffer jump -> buffer aerial. I can buffer both moves within the 10 frames and the result is an aerial out of shield on the first available frame. If I try to do the same thing in smash 4 the game ignores all inputs I buffer during the shieldstun except the final one, which is usually the cstick. So instead of jumping out of the shield and performing an aerial, I end up dropping my shield and then either performing a random smash [because I c-stick most of my aerials] or doing nothing at all [because the 7 frames of shield drop screw the timing].

Has anybody made the same experience? What's the best way to deal with it? Which inputs can be buffered during shieldstun that lead to a satisfactory result when your shield has been hit?

My theory is that the length of time a character is in their grounded clank animation depends on how much damage the opponent's move would have dealt. If frame advantage is significant toward the high end (if your move deals 6% or 7% more so you both clank), it might be pretty useful for considering risk/reward in close-range situations. Maybe tilts would become a more viable method of fighting potential Jabs and such.

I'm pretty sure that's accurate. The amount of lag an opponent suffers after clashing moves is equivalent to the amount of percent that move would've dealt had it connected successfully.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm pretty sure that's accurate. The amount of lag an opponent suffers after clashing moves is equivalent to the amount of percent that move would've dealt had it connected successfully.

So clanking with a move that does 6% more than normal would give you +6 frame advantage?

That seems like it could be pretty useful. If that's the case, I'll probably use Jigglypuff F-Tilt more often, since Dash Attack comes out on Frame 5...This might be somewhat significant in certain matchups across the board.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't think I've ever seen two moves with such a high percent difference clank but I can remember specific instances where I ended up with frame [dis]advantages after clanking with certain moves. The only thing I could tell for sure though was that the [dis]advantage was not consistent. I always end up getting the highest disadvantages with Fox' jab1, which is his move with the lowest damage output and often ended up with frame advantage after clanking with his fsmash [which does 14% fresh]. This is definitely not coincidence and the most obvious conclusion would be that the frame difference is equivalent to the difference in damage the moves would've done.

I'm sure the multiplied Villager fsmash does around 50%, which could lead to frame differences of nearly a second, at least in theory. I don't actually know too much about the circumstances required for a clank to happen.