Matchup impressions as of 5/20/15

[SeanS]

If you have any questions, please ask me. I am eager to generate any kind of discussion on this character whatsoever.

I am sitting here in my chair at school, looking over a character list while I am bored. Given that I'm one of 3-5 people using this character in a totally competitive way, and that I have a reasonable amount of success with him, I feel I'm qualified to quickly sort through matchups that are good, bad, etc.

I refuse to give matchup numbers, especially since this game is very new. KEEP IN MIND THAT THESE ARE STRICTLY MY THOUGHTS AS OF THE GIVEN DATE IN THE TOPIC TITLE. I am not making any definitive statement as to how this character can perform theoretically, even though I believe I have a strong understanding of that.

With that said, I will simply sort between FUNDAMENTALLY UNWINNABLE, SLIGHT DISADVANTAGE, NEUTRAL, SLIGHT ADVANTAGE, AND FUNDAMENTALLY UNLOSEABLE.

Also, these all assume you're playing offline against people who are not terrible. Significant lag or bad players can completely change MUs.



FUNDAMENTALLY UNWINNABLE (The Dastardly Four)
Diddy
Sheik
Rosalina
Fox

SLIGHT DISADVANTAGE
Bowser (neutral in theory, just not in practice)
(Dark) Pit
ROB (real potential for neutral)
Falcon (is actually slightly in G&W's favor in practice, because 98% of people who play this character are bad with him)
Villager (fundamentally unwinnable with customs on)
Sonic
G&W (yes, you read that right. You have to play this MU completely differently)

NEUTRAL
Yoshi
Junior (MATCHUP TBD)
Link (potential for slight advantage, don't play against him that often)
Toon Link
ZSS
Palutena
Kirby
Pikachu (MATCHUP TBD)
Greninja (MATCHUP TBD)
Olimar (potential for slight advantage, people who are genuinely skilled with him are hard to find and I'm not used to dealing with competent pikmin management)
Pac Man
Mega Man

SLIGHT ADVANTAGE
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Wario
DK (neutral with customs on)
Zelda
Ganon
Marcina
Robin
DeDeDe
MK
Little Mac
Falco
Charizard
Lucario
Duck Hunt (MATCHUP TBD)
Ness
WFT
Dr. Mario
Shulk
Mewtwo
Mii Fighter
Mii Gunner (MATCHUP TBD)
Mii Swordsman (MATCHUP TBD)

FUNDAMENTALLY UNLOSEABLE
Samus (potential to move out of this tier given perfect prediction)
Ike
Jigglypuff







IMPORTANT NOTES

- Anything saying (MATCHUP TBD) is largely theoretical conjecture. i.e., Duck Hunt shouldn't really have a theoretically good kill method against G&W and has a recovery that G&W can really take advantage of, but I have not played the MU to know these things as absolute facts.

- G&W has a bad matchup against himself because if you are not educated on the flow of the matchup you will theoretically lose to a person with more MU experience; but yet, MU experience is insufficient to win. This is because the matchup dynamic is extremely different from those found in regular play, and revolves a lot around priority jousting, extremely hard reads, and unpredictability.

- I define "FUNDAMENTALLY x" as something where a mid level player with the weaker character can consistently defeat a highly skilled player.

- A lot of people are unaware of how bad G&W vs Pit actually is, and I'm sure this will be one of the bigger surprises. Pit has a lot of range and priority over the majority of G&W's moves and his side B is a theoretical nightmare for G&W. He is really good at resisting prediction. In summary, thank god he's not a good character.

- The dastardly four have several things in common: an ability to play in a completely reactive and non-predictive way for victory, throw combo resistance (weight, get-outs, etc.), and total theoretical resistance to edgeguarding.

- I know some lesser G&W players are going to wonder about DeDeDe's rating because he can seem so hard to kill. The thing is, he's very punishable in an offline environment. This isn't even about how G&W has tons of moves to push Gordos back, I mean that you can literally dash attack him OOS after every ftilt he does and tons of his moves let you attack him from the air. He is also absurdly easy to vortex when he is above you, and furthermore, he has an absurd weakness to throw combos in theory (dthrow > uair > uair > Up B LOL, perhaps double nair too).

- Yes, the ratings for Palutena and Kirby are correct.

- Little Mac is a very extreme MU where one player dominates the other at any given time. Properly played, G&W should win because of dash attack and bair and a theoretical ability to kill LM every time he's offstage.

Again, if you have any questions, ask me. Let's talk about this character and revive this dead forum.

 

[Sixell]

I don't know about Link being Neutral. I'd at least put him up at "slight disadvantage." I play skilled Link mains often (my brother being one of them) and Link will always force GW to approach and then Link can counter with his nearly lagless moves. Just about every OoS option he has can wreck a GW. Although good job with noticing Pit's potential against GW. His speed, range and priority can be somewhat annoying.

 

[SeanS]

When you master powershielding, and realize that Link's main way of fighting you (assuming a competitive environment) involves jab tricks, you will have much, much less trouble with link. Also, it's critical to capitalize on every offstage opportunity.

 

[BBC7]

It's nice to see that I'm not crazy for thinking Pit is annoying. You whiff one dash attack, you get killed off the top by Side B. Heck, you don't even have to whiff it to die.

 

[Kofu]

Explain why you feel Villager is fundamentally unwinnable with customs. I'm only really threatened by Timber Counter because it makes dash attack harder to use. With customs we have more opportunities for buckets. I agree it gets harder with customs overall though.

Other specific disagreements:

We probably lose to Link slightly. He's one of those characters that are hard to pin down for KOs and his range/power make the MU challenging. Getting good edgeguards will help, however.

Marcina is even or slight disadvantage. With customs, they gain a powerful damage-racking/KOing tool in Crescent Slash, which is a guaranteed sweetspot out if grab release.

I really fail to see how we beat Ike that well. I may concede that it's even. But a solid advantage? I'm not seeing it. His aerials outrange ours with better flow and he KOs much sooner.

I'm also unsure that we beat Ganon and DK. Both are close to even. We just have less room for error which makes the MUs frustrating.

Fun thing against Pit: if he tries to get back on the stage with Upperdash Arm, use DTilt. He'll be propped high in the air, prime for and USmash. Unlikely to work more than once, though.

 

[David_give]

I fail to see why post patch diddy is fundamentally unwinnable. Diddy has really powerful landing traps with the banana, but you've just gotta play around them by going to the ledge/catching the banana. Short hop airdodge or any aerial catches the banana, and moves like ftilt and upsmash will clash with the banana when thrown. G&W holding a banana is super scary, glidetoss to fsmash/sweetspot dsmash (depending on spacing) is amazing, or just getting a grab at low percents. Little known fact, while holding an item in parachute, G&W can do an aerial, similar to peach's float. I'd like to hear you opinion as to what you have trouble with specifically in that matchup, I think it's completely winnable, maybe almost even.

 

[SeanS]

Explain why you feel Villager is fundamentally unwinnable with customs. I'm only really threatened by Timber Counter because it makes dash attack harder to use. With customs we have more opportunities for buckets. I agree it gets harder with customs overall though.

Trip sapling stops basically every approach when combined with fair and the non-exploding lloid rocket that keeps you locked in shield. The explosive balloons also completely and utterly stop G&W's edgeguarding.

Other specific disagreements:

We probably lose to Link slightly. He's one of those characters that are hard to pin down for KOs and his range/power make the MU challenging. Getting good edgeguards will help, however.[/quote]

Again, I don't know what people's problem with this MU is. It's not a great MU by any means, but you need to powershield and not fall for jab traps (he does this because he has to), because that is basically how he gets kills if you know what you're doing. If you can't get him off the stage, you need to master jabbing and ftilting after a powershield.

You can't just go for fairs all the time. Challenge Link on the ground and realize you're not going to be setting the pace of the match. Punish, punish, punish.

Marcina is even or slight disadvantage. With customs, they gain a powerful damage-racking/KOing tool in Crescent Slash, which is a guaranteed sweetspot out if grab release.

It also makes them laughably easy to edgeguard, even compared to how they are now. I don't have a ton of practice against it because most players have been smart enough to realize that they need normal Up B to have any hope of getting back to the ledge, but if they use this, you simply need to block the specific angle that will let them ledge grab.

It's okay even on the 1% chance that this is a lie, though. Most of what this character does is fundamentally weak against G&W. A perfectly spaced fair against G&W's shield is a guaranteed dash attack and people need to understand this.

I really fail to see how we beat Ike that well. I may concede that it's even. But a solid advantage? I'm not seeing it. His aerials outrange ours with better flow and he KOs much sooner.

bair / Up B vortex offstage. He has literally no way to stop it if you are competent at this.

Generally, his strategy is extremely predictable, relying on AC Nair > jab, and if he tries jab mixups (again, this is what Link players do because they HAVE TO), you need to react and punish consistently OOS. Other than that, basically every move he does is very obvious and punishable, and the only real threats are defensive ftilt, which you can very easily learn not to fall into, and counter, which is something you have to deal with on a player-by-player basis through psychological game.

I'm also unsure that we beat Ganon and DK. Both are close to even. We just have less room for error which makes the MUs frustrating.

Honestly, I get the impression that you're not good at edgeguarding yet. Any good G&W knows that if you get Ganon offstage - even if it's just a bair > bair outside of the middle of the stage, he has a very good chance of dying or at least recovering from a predictable position (yes, with customs on too). He is also a huge sucker for dash attack chains. Also, vortexing him every time he's above you isn't that hard once you realize that his Down B is a get-out-of-jail card that works in your favor if you read it.

DK is fat. Because of that, he gets combo'd and vortexed very easily. While getting vortexed, his main options are to throw out a dair (bad), land ahead of you and bair (bad), and Up B (bad unless customs are on, but not great with them on either). Also, due to his size, Chef is actually a viable mixup in this MU that you can throw around to frustrate the enemy.

I'm also going to note here that the difference between why Bowser is a bit unfavorable and DK is favorable has mostly to do with how safe Bowser is. Bowser has two distinct ways to avoid getting vortexed from below (three if you consider that he can slow fall his dair), all of which are combined with high KB / damage aerials that come out super quickly; DK doesn't have any real way to escape in theory. Bowser ground zoning you with jab, dtilt, etc. does higher damage and KB than DK's laggier / weaker tilts, potentially killing. Off of your whiffs, DK *might* kill at 100 depending on how hard your whiff was, but Bowser can instantly kill at 70% depending on the circumstances AND he has a get-out-of-jail card in virtually any CQC position because of his OOS Up B. Bowser is also harder to kill percent wise than DK.

 

[SeanS]

I fail to see why post patch diddy is fundamentally unwinnable. Diddy has really powerful landing traps with the banana, but you've just gotta play around them by going to the ledge/catching the banana.

Diddy's ledge trap is precisely one of the reasons this MU is unwinnable. It makes every single onstage recovery option you have fundamentally bad, and you can get played off of basic reactions.

Much of your post assumes Diddy is going to let you catch a banana instead of trapping with it. This is kind of absurd to think about.

ftilt and upsmash will clash with the banana when thrown

ftilt will leave you open to getting grabbed right afterwards because it outprioritizes the banana and doesn't collision cancel. And how the hell are you landing a usmash on banana, lol? That's super weird.

The only real solution to banana trap that I have worked out (very recently, tbqh, I will try to apply this in tourney soon) is to actually dtilt it (!) because this causes a collision cancel which G&W can act out of shortly after / returns G&W to the ledge with no banana. This is dependent on poor banana spacing, but it does work.

I'd like to hear you opinion as to what you have trouble with specifically in that matchup, I think it's completely winnable, maybe almost even.

The fact that his AC Fair outprioritizes basically everything.
dtilt as a response to basically any approach, also it combos into AC Fair
The fact that he is absurdly difficult to edgeguard.
Banana traps
The fact that he is one of the hardest characters to consistently hit out of dthrow.

 

[Denzill7]

Basically G&W is good against characters susceptible to edgeguarding. Characters that can punish him hard off of a bad move, are difficult to kill until high percents, and can get out of his edgeguarding moves consistently are characters that he'll have a hard time with.

 

[Kofu]

Trip sapling stops basically every approach when combined with fair and the non-exploding lloid rocket that keeps you locked in shield. The explosive balloons also completely and utterly stop G&W's edgeguarding.

If he uses Pushy Lloid exploit the shorter travel distance and bucket it when it explodes. Incidentally, I could see Short-Order Chef being handy in the MU since it should detonate normal Lloid and the food comes fast enough to interrupt Pocket (not that Pocketing them does much good tbh). Exploding Balloons are a pain but they can be worked around. One thing to remember is that any lingering hitbox will destroy slingshots, since they're projectiles and the strongest of them, BAir, only does 9% maximum.

Again, I don't know what people's problem with this MU is. It's not a great MU by any means, but you need to powershield and not fall for jab traps (he does this because he has to), because that is basically how he gets kills if you know what you're doing. If you can't get him off the stage, you need to master jabbing and ftilting after a powershield.

You can't just go for fairs all the time. Challenge Link on the ground and realize you're not going to be setting the pace of the match. Punish, punish, punish.

I've played this MU recently against two similarly skilled players, and both times once they figure out to be careful with their bombs and to play reactively, it becomes a lot harder for us. I could see it as even, possibly a very, very slight advantage given equal skill, but it's not a fight I enjoy. I actually struggle to gimp Link because Spin Attack is fairly difficult to challenge (I imagine fastfalled FAir right off the stage would be effective though).

It also makes them laughably easy to edgeguard, even compared to how they are now. I don't have a ton of practice against it because most players have been smart enough to realize that they need normal Up B to have any hope of getting back to the ledge, but if they use this, you simply need to block the specific angle that will let them ledge grab.

It's okay even on the 1% chance that this is a lie, though. Most of what this character does is fundamentally weak against G&W. A perfectly spaced fair against G&W's shield is a guaranteed dash attack and people need to understand this.

The FAir on shield resulting in a dash attack is probably true and I will have to implement it when I get a chance.

Game & Watch/Marth is kind of a dumb MU where neither character has safe buttons to approach with and the winner is the one who is more patient. However, Marth has better range, pokes, and general attack speed compared to us. I don't think it's nearly as bad as Brawl but I still feel we lose the MU.

bair / Up B vortex offstage. He has literally no way to stop it if you are competent at this.

Generally, his strategy is extremely predictable, relying on AC Nair > jab, and if he tries jab mixups (again, this is what Link players do because they HAVE TO), you need to react and punish consistently OOS. Other than that, basically every move he does is very obvious and punishable, and the only real threats are defensive ftilt, which you can very easily learn not to fall into, and counter, which is something you have to deal with on a player-by-player basis through psychological game.

I'm going to call you out here because what you've described sounds like his Brawl strategy, which, while somewhat the same, has nonetheless changed, particularly regarding his jab (also NAir doesn't autocancel but that's irrelevant to the discussion). Since his Brawl jab was so potent as a mixup tool, in this game it has abysmal IASA frames and can really only feasibly be used as part of the whole combo. What he does have now, however, is a quick DTilt to start combos. He also has a SHAC FAir, which can be used as an effective wall; throw combos (they're strict timing and may not be effective on Game & Watch thanks to his weight); and air speed comparable to our own (1.08 to our 1.12, though we certainly are more flexible in movement).

Like I said, it may be even (and possibly in our favor slightly) but I highly, highly doubt we have a solid advantage. I have very little experience fighting Ike, however, and assuming you have experience, I will defer to your knowledge.

Honestly, I get the impression that you're not good at edgeguarding yet. Any good G&W knows that if you get Ganon offstage - even if it's just a bair > bair outside of the middle of the stage, he has a very good chance of dying or at least recovering from a predictable position (yes, with customs on too). He is also a huge sucker for dash attack chains. Also, vortexing him every time he's above you isn't that hard once you realize that his Down B is a get-out-of-jail card that works in your favor if you read it.

Edgeguarding Ganon is one of our biggest strengths in the MU and probably the only safe way to get kills. I think the challenge here is to not mess up our advantage. This one is probably the most volatile matchup I've played because Ganon needs so few hits to take a stock and has very powerful options to defend himself from our usual approaches. At the same time, I will agree that our edgeguarding and juggling prowess makes it difficult for him, as well.

I am probably not the best at edgeguarding, no. But in my friendlies with Vermanubis, he was often able to get just outside of my attempts and recover anyway. It feels more like an even MU leaning in Ganon's favor than one in ours to me.

DK is fat. Because of that, he gets combo'd and vortexed very easily. While getting vortexed, his main options are to throw out a dair (bad), land ahead of you and bair (bad), and Up B (bad unless customs are on, but not great with them on either). Also, due to his size, Chef is actually a viable mixup in this MU that you can throw around to frustrate the enemy.

I'm also going to note here that the difference between why Bowser is a bit unfavorable and DK is favorable has mostly to do with how safe Bowser is. Bowser has two distinct ways to avoid getting vortexed from below (three if you consider that he can slow fall his dair), all of which are combined with high KB / damage aerials that come out super quickly; DK doesn't have any real way to escape in theory. Bowser ground zoning you with jab, dtilt, etc. does higher damage and KB than DK's laggier / weaker tilts, potentially killing. Off of your whiffs, DK *might* kill at 100 depending on how hard your whiff was, but Bowser can instantly kill at 70% depending on the circumstances AND he has a get-out-of-jail card in virtually any CQC position because of his OOS Up B. Bowser is also harder to kill percent wise than DK.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think Bowser is a lot worse for us than DK. But DK's greater air speed and overall faster attacks make the MU intimidating regardless. Here are the initial hit numbers for DK's jab/tilts:
Jab: 5
FTilt: 9
UTilt: 6
Dtilt: 7

And Bowser:
Jab: 7
FTilt: 10
Utilt: 12
DTilt: 10

Of those, Bowser's jab combo is better than DK's. His FTilt might be but I doubt it. His UTilt and DTilt are definitely slower than DK's, however. Bowser hits hard but really doesn't have combos because hits attacks are quite laggy. DK, on the other hand, has sacrificed a little power for significant drops in lag, giving him a handful of true combos and frame traps. I'm a lot more concerned if DK barely whiffs an attack than if Bowser does. Other than that, I more or less agree with your analysis of DK vs. Bowser, I just feel that DK walls us out a little better than you think. He also edges us out in air speed very slightly.

Quick question, by "vortexing" do you just mean juggling them with Up-B? I want to make sure that I'm not missing an extra meaning that you meant to imply.

Oh, one more thing. I'd put ROB in even or slight advantage. I'm a little intrigued why he's not, especially since his recovery is highly vulnerable and essentially on a timer as soon as he uses his Up-B that we can run down and you've referenced gimping as a deciding factor in most of the MUs you've elaborated on.

 

[SeanS]

I really think the "frame data" obsession this community has is usually detrimental to any given theoretical discussion. Low startup lag on moves is nice, but it doesn't tell the whole story at all - and this is a great example of how just reading "frame data" can completely mislead you as to character differences.

Bowser's jab isn't great compared to DK's just because it comes out fast. DK's does that too. It's great because not only does it come out fast, but it has low endlag (allowing literal jab spam in place), great priority, good range, a slight amount of kill power, and it factors into a broader picture of a great anti-approach moveset that includes OOS Up B (kills at extreme percents), Down B (kills super early), Side B (kills super early), and dtilt (kill move).



Vortexing has a specific meaning in various FGC communities, but I understand it to mean the act of unpredictably or smartly selecting between multiple attack options on a situationally disadvantaged opponent. As it applies to G&W, this usually references a situation where G&W is below an aerialized opponent, foxtrotting, and making the opponent worry what G&W will do as they inevitably fall near him.



ROB's nair defines the MU. It has priority over helmet(!) and allows for a near instantaneous dodge or attack after. The only way to vortex him is to get hard reads on nair startup lag and Up B. Edgeguarding him relies on the same principle in any given situation where you aren't chasing him deep offstage - yes, you CAN make him run out of gas and force bad airdodges as he comes back if you get some solid reads, but this is the exception rather than the rule.

 

[David_give]

Are you specifically concerned about the situation where there is a banana on the ledge while you are hanging on it? This is a situation that is very escapable, your main option is ledgehop airdodge onto the stage to catch the banana followed by either throwing it immediately or up-b-ing away and landing somewhere on stage. You can also drop down, double jump, nair then regrab ledge without invincibility and immediately get up/roll or whatever. Drop down up-b or ledgehop forward airs can also work, depends on what the diddy is doing/what you think they will do. Landing on stage from parachute with a banana in hand is super easy, as you can choose to aerial or throw the banana out of parachute at any time (or airdodge or just fastfall land for that matter).

Not saying it's an easy matchup, just not unwinnable, in my opinion.

Edit: Forgot to mention you don't even have to regrab the ledge after dj nair below it to grab banana, you can just up b past ledge as well.

 

[TheUndeadReturns]

I don't exactly see how the Rosaline MU is unwinnable. I never really have troubles with her.

I get the grabbing. How Luma can hit you out of a grab, one of GWs few strengths, otherwise I don't really see it.

It's more of approaching when Luma is away then getting rid of Luma as a main goal. I dunno, it's just me.

 

[Kofu]

I really think the "frame data" obsession this community has is usually detrimental to any given theoretical discussion. Low startup lag on moves is nice, but it doesn't tell the whole story at all - and this is a great example of how just reading "frame data" can completely mislead you as to character differences.

Bowser's jab isn't great compared to DK's just because it comes out fast. DK's does that too. It's great because not only does it come out fast, but it has low endlag (allowing literal jab spam in place), great priority, good range, a slight amount of kill power, and it factors into a broader picture of a great anti-approach moveset that includes OOS Up B (kills at extreme percents), Down B (kills super early), Side B (kills super early), and dtilt (kill move).

For the record, I was agreeing with you that Bowser was a harder MU, and I wasn't saying that he shuts down approaches (which I feel he definitely does and is the hardest part of the MU along with his extreme kill power). The only reason I brought up frame data was because you called DK's tilts laggy. They are weaker than Bowser's, sure (though UTilt can still kill at reasonable percents). For what it's worth, I think Bowser is the hardest heavy to deal with, then Ganon or DK, then Charizard or Dedede.

ROB's nair defines the MU. It has priority over helmet(!) and allows for a near instantaneous dodge or attack after. The only way to vortex him is to get hard reads on nair startup lag and Up B. Edgeguarding him relies on the same principle in any given situation where you aren't chasing him deep offstage - yes, you CAN make him run out of gas and force bad airdodges as he comes back if you get some solid reads, but this is the exception rather than the rule.

ROB's NAir will only beat USmash if the hitbox touches Game & Watch's body (the move gives his head full invincibility from frames 4-25 on an uncharged attack IIRC).

I may be misunderstanding you, but are you implying ROB is difficult to juggle? (If you weren't I apologize for the misunderstanding) I have to disagree there. Being juggled is probably his biggest weakness. Unless he has a gyro in hand, his only options for avoiding/challenging attacks from below are NAir and DAir, both highly laggy attacks. Once they're out, the hitboxes are impressive, but stopping them isn't difficult. Edgeguarding should work similarly. If forced to use his Up-B, ROB will be unable to airdodge until using another aerial leaving him very vulnerable.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

You didn't include Meta Knight. What are your thoughts on that MU?

Edit: Never mind. I ctrl+f'd "Meta" and came up with nothing, but after this post I tried "MK" and saw it. I pretty much agree with the placing. But, as to not waste a post, could you elaborate on the Pac-man match-up? That was the other thing that stuck out to me. I'm sure you know it far better than me, but I always thought Pac had a slight, but definite, advantage.

 

[SeanS]

You didn't include Meta Knight. What are your thoughts on that MU?

Bad character generally, particularly where kill methods are concerned, but he has two significant things going for him in this MU: his low-endlag fsmash and his dash grab. Any good MK will basically be relying on these the whole game, trying to camp you out until you make some kind of mistake.

But, as to not waste a post, could you elaborate on the Pac-man match-up? That was the other thing that stuck out to me. I'm sure you know it far better than me, but I always thought Pac had a slight, but definite, advantage.

Players (esp. G&W players) get easily frustrated with him because his moveset largely exists to delay combat and escape getting vortexed from below. Be patient, don't sucker for ledge bthrow, and you've got a matchup that is quite playable. Be careful of his jab, usmash him out of low percentage dthrow if he's the nair-hungry type, and learn how to punish the end of his Side B in any given situation - G&W especially can. As for the hydrant, G&W in particular has a lot of ways to deal with it if he's close to it immediately after it is spawned - learn to predict hydrant drops and act quickly (starting off by usmashing it usually works unless your opponent knows you / the MU). Also, hard reads of it can let you Up B him.

 

[pepi1197]

Im obviously not well-versed in matchups as I'm mediocre with G&W but i wanted to touch on the DHD matchup ( I play both G&W and DHD). Duck Hunt's grab game is extremely strong with excellent followups in uair and fair out of dthrow, but a very laggy/predictable dash attack, a very punishable recovery and absolutely terrible smash attacks might give a slight advantage to G&W. The startup and endlag on smash attacks coupled with lack of serviceable kill options with tilts are what make DHD so difficult to use competetively. As for his specials, the only one of real concern is the clay pigeon. It can slow down a dash attack and allow DHD to reset if you're putting on pressure. It also provides an opening for an easy grab if the player is quick on the draw.

Just a little note, I noticed that >30% G&W becomes harder to catch in a dthrow to uair by DHD, which would give the advantage to G&W so long as you can keep pressure and hold the middle of the stage.

 

[warionumbah2]

Bad character generally, particularly where kill methods are concerned, but he has two significant things going for him in this MU: his low-endlag fsmash and his dash grab. Any good MK will basically be relying on these the whole game, trying to camp you out until you make some kind of mistake.

You haven't been playing good MKs, your knowledge on the character is horrible as well thus making anything you say related to MK unreliable.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Is Diddy out of the Dastardly Four yet?

 

[Aphistemi]

These matchups....... lol