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Match-Up Discussion: Lucario

Discussion in 'Peach' started by Yaaay, Nov 25, 2010.

  1. Yaaay

    Yaaay Smash Master

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    It has been too long since the last discussion. ;d

    Lucario


    [​IMG]

    Discuss​

    :053:
  2. Queen B. Kyon

    Queen B. Kyon Smash Master

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    I say 55:45 his favor. He seems to have the great ability to run from Peach safely if you don't predict well. His fair beats our air game but our bair can be used in the same way as the Marth mu. Can be gimped by turips hard thus making the killing problem easier. If you space wrong in this mu you will ether always get grabbed or smash punished hard. This MU is better being fought on the ground. Learn your ground float and cancel game for this.

    Also can be a very good partner if you play like Nicole in teams,
  3. DrakeRowan

    DrakeRowan Just call me "Rowan"

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    55:45 Lucarios favor


    • -This matchup is all about properly baiting the Lucario. Lucario's love to abuse their rolls.
      [*]-Something I like to do when they use small aura spheres is to jump, throw a turnip at him, float, and see what the Lucario will do once the turnip hits his shield.
      [*]-Turnip gimp him as much as you can. His recovery isn't all that. If he's planking, spam turnips off the ledge or jump above the ledge and throw a turnip down.
      [*]-Approaching by the air is inadvisable as his fair hampers your aerial game. More then likely, lucario will spam aura spheres to get you to jump in the air.
      [*]-Watch for his fsmash as you're recovering from the ledge. If you have a good reaction, you can use toad during the startup of the move and he'll eat the spores.
      [*]-Don't hang on the ledge for too long as this will prompt him to run off the edge and use his dair on you which could cause a stage spike.
      [*]-Be on your top notch game when it comes to spacing. Make sure your jabs are within range to hit or else you'll eat sideb or fsmash.
      [*]-If you're feeling brave, you could try usmashing him out of his fair if the lucario fails to read properly. Similarly if you find the Lucario likes to fair alot as soon as you jump, you could try fleshing toad out as soon as you jump. Even though it's highly punishable, It'll at least give him something to watch out for.
      [*]-Lucario's have a knack for grabbing alot. Common setups for Lucario include jabx2 to grab/sideb or just running up to you and sideb while you think you're out of range of his fsmash.
  4. Razmakazi

    Razmakazi Smash Champion

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    i gotta remember to DI away from lucario's jabs or through them and to DI up and away from his dair.

    also, lucario can't rly force an approach so we can be patient. aura is too slow, lucario is too slow so we can sit back and powershield.
  5. Rickerdy-doo-da-day

    Rickerdy-doo-da-day Smash Master

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    Boring match up. Extremely tedious too

    Peach can't kill and Lucario kills sooner as he takes damage

    For crying out loud, DON'T predictably land your Fairs on Lucario unless you know you've spaced it right. If you get it wrong, he'll either grab you or stutter step an F Smash so that your Fair just misses and you get smashed. If Lucario is walking away from you as you're Floating, just back away. Don't bother trying to move forward and land a Fair or Dair cause he can just F Smash you when you land or jump up and Fair you. Float back and if he does try to Fair you, Fair him back cause you'll outspace him

    You can use Bair to have spacing wars with him in the air. Watch out for his Bair due to its range. Powershield everything you can and time your airdodges well. Camp as much as you can. If you get the lead, you gain a huge advantage because Lucario has to approach you to make up that lead so play smart and safe. Making a single mistake can cost you the match
  6. Steam

    Steam Moderator

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    fixed, this isn't 08

    also Lucario's Bair > his fair in this matchup. his fair you can at least beat with your fair and sometimes trade with your Bair. nothing you can really do about our Bair

    Lucario's Ftilt is also amazing in this matchup. I don't think peach has much on it.

    Luc's fair also isn't so great because its damage output is low and luc can't get retarded fair strings on peach because of her nair. Also if you know you're going to get dair'd SDI the first hit and nair him.

    you really have to kinda bank on getting gimps/ huge punishes on lucario's recovery. Take ledge > wait for him to recover to the stage > ledgehop punish. If you can try to bair rather than Fair because bair puts him offstage again. However be aware that with Good DI Lucario usually won't have to use upB and even if he does the Lucario can make it MUCH less laggy if he ends it parallel to the stage.

    What really kills peach in this matchup is Lucario's Aura. she racks damage fast then can't kill. Her one good spacing move vs. Lucario is also her best kill move... so she'll often be faced with a Lucario in God mode.

    would be evenish to 55-45 Lucario if he were always at base power (75%) but Aura makes it around 60-40 Luc IMO
  7. ¿Qué?

    ¿Qué? Smash Champion

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    I definitely agree with the ratio.

    55:45 Lucario.

    Peach's only major strength as a character is damage racking. This is what can really turn the tables on Peach. Lucario does die early, but he's quick enough to avoid us for a while and still has a strong ability to camp.

    Peach usually kills Lucario around 130% if she's on the ball. If we miss the oppertunity to kill him at that percent, then it goes down hill from there. His moves do more damage, making his camp game hell, and scarier to approach due to powerful early kill moves. Fully charged aura balls are easy to predict when shot. The real annoyance in this MU are the smaller ones he can spam. His roll is STUPID GOOD, so chasing can be uber annoying.

    I honestly hate fighting Lucario in any MU.

    Mah 4 cents.
  8. Dark.Pch

    Dark.Pch Smash Legend

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    Aura is really nothing. Pay attention and you don't get hit, just like you pay attention to where snake plants his stuff, you wont get blown up. That aura is nothing big in this match up. You can camp lucario and pay attention to it. Also he can just shoot that thing up close if Peach is pressuring him. He has to get a certain distance to actually launch that thing save. Typical way for Peach to get hit by that thing is glide tossing to him while he shoots it. Peach should be playing a hit and run when he has it charged. And wait for him to shoot it. Peach should not be rushing Lucario, even if she is losing. He is not all that quick.

    Also I don't need Fair to kill him or space. Leave this 08 play style out of this. I can space and get in between his Fair chains with Bair. Even space Nairs on him. not many Peach players are good at spacing that move. Done correctly you can space and become hard to punish. can be used as an evasion tatic.

    And his Ftilt?
    - Time Full hoped dairs short hoped Dairs.
    - Jump and fast fall Nair on him.
    - Jump behind him and bair
    - Z drop on him\Z drop combos

    Also Z drop>footstool on his recovery= GG
  9. Steam

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    lol Punishing Ftilt. you could only do all that on whiff :/ even then luc would have to be very predictable with it because you'd have to start those punishes about when he starts the move. Ftilt is better as an anti air when directed up if anything of course it's not the only thing luc should do because of the things you stated. But iirc It will beat out your fair and I'm certain it will beat out any other aerial.

    as long as Lucario's actually spacing Fairs properly you shouldn't be able to get nairs on him. maaaaybe Bair. Of course Lucario could just use his bair.

    and I was refering to aura boost. Not Aurasphere >.> SH Baby auraspheres can help force peach out of her float... But this is one of the matchups where Auraboost helps Lucario a looot. Lucario reaches god mode very easily and pretty consistantly against peach.

    without Aurasphere Lucario would be like E-tier.

    edit: tested out Peach's Fair vs. Luc's Ftilt. your Ftilt will beat it if you outspace the Ftilt. basically meaning your Fair will always win. Of course luc can just jump at you if you're trying to autocancel a spaced Fair.

    With proper DI and proper recovery Lucario should rarely be in a position for you to Z-drop Footstool him. Especially to the point where you'd gimp him that way.
  10. MythTrainerInfinity

    MythTrainerInfinity Smash Lord

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    Hmmm the princess with the fungus infection...

    http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=250225 AS priority vs. your stuff. Aura plays a HUGE role in this MU.

    At around 60-70% Lucario should stop approaching so much. Since fully charged Aura Spheres really start beating your stuff at that point (considering staleness) we can start to camp you.

    Our BAir comes out a frame before your FAir, but that wont matter too much...

    Aggressive Lucarios do horrible against Peach. Your NAir works really well against aggrocarios.

    Your fresh FAir will not kill us with good DI until upwards of 140%. Our fully charged Aura Sphere beats your FAir at 142%...

    Lucarios should also be weary of how crappy Peach's Air Dodge is and exploit it moreso with Aura Spheres.

    You might want to stay grounded more against Lucarios. Float wisely, my friends.

    Aggrocario vs. Peach is like 50:50.

    Lucarios who play this MU right and camp 65:35 - 60:40 Lucario's favor.
  11. Dark.Pch

    Dark.Pch Smash Legend

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    If I wanted to, I can just sit back and snipe you with turnips. now if I am up close, I can just do as I listed. or Go in and Nair you. Ground floated Nair/bairs are fast enough to stop and beat it. Also, that move is not all that fast nor those it have quick cool down time.


    he wants to move in with fairs:

    Nair/Bair him.

    He wants to space fairs?

    Fair/jump reversal bair him.

    Next.


    Peach should not even be floating so much on lucario. it makes her slow and Lucario can easily just roll and camp. Same time get hit out of the air with his Fairs and aura. Just like Match she has to start her **** grounded. And attack inbetween moved. Same time camp and create walls with spacing or turnip walls. if a Peach wants to float and play so basic with dairs and etc, this match is so easy. And it seems from what you saying here, that the kind of Peach you been playing. And seriously that aura boost is not something that makes the MU or so good for you. You can do that all you want. Who the heck said I have to try and catch you. And what good is all that is I create this wall and make it hard to touch me. That's like me trying to catch pika so much out of his QA/QAC.



    You wanna play this "Of course I can just" game? Ok I wanna play too.

    I can just run at you, and float hop to stop dead in my tracks and then Fsmash since you would Jump at me.

    I can go to you and space a Nair to a jab cancel then do nothing, you **** your pants not knowing what to do since I give you NOTHING to respond too., you roll or side step, I punish.

    I can just fun at you with a Nair.

    I can run at you and space a retreating Fair/Bair

    I can go to you and Jump>Zdrop(you get stuned from the hit)>nair

    See? I can play this game too. So lets not bring stuff like this up that means nothing.


    Lets see, if I ledge cancel turnips and create a wall with turnips, Lucarios options will be cut short as to where to go. To a point I have a chance to control where he has to recover. Di won't do much if I am here keeping him out. You won't always be able to recover high. if you have to recover mid range or low, don't think you can you can safely get back on.

    Now if I can't get this trick off, I can just always be gay and create a wall, then when you have to recover, grab the ledge. if you are forced to go on stage and make it, I can float off stage and hit you with the back of her Nair too keep you out. or just Floatland, grab you, and toss you out. Then repeat the process of the turnip wall and turnip juggles near the ledge and time a ledge grab. I can also just go out there and try to hit you while turnips are out there. you evade my attack. Which in this cause is what I want. That just decreased your chances of recovering well and getting past me to the stage safe. Now I go for the edge and you have to recover. Now we go back to the 2 options I have to keep you out and kill you. You ether die and take alot of damage coming back.

    Peach should be camping lucario from start to finish. Its a hit and run. She has no buiss going rambo on him. Makes this match up too easy. If Peach plays D creates turnip walls and spaces/pressures well, Lucario is gonna have a hard time trying to get a hit.

    So you get your aura charged. Now what. I am suppose to just try and attack you/kill you before you unleash it? Go in floating with dairs and fairs? Glide toss to you? The only projectile you can toss at me is that aura . once it is charged you can throw anything at me you have to get at me for damage with your hand skills. You have to come to me to get damage. And you have to get through

    - My turnip wall
    - Spaced moves
    - Pressure follow ups if you get in.
    - Fight me up close which Peach has no problem doing. Really grounded.

    I can still attack you from distance. I have no reason to rush you. I should not at all. wether I am winning or losing. You are not quick and I can just do my hit and runs with bone walking/freepulls. Gonna make it really hard and gay to catch me, get through my garden then have to deal with my wall of spaced moves and pressure. I'll at one point be out camping you.

    Lucario can charge his thing all he wants. When he does that he leaves a big flaw Peach can abuse. What I can also do is use the same mentality I use against the triforce kids. Once they have a bomb, don't approach them. Or move in slow but don't really do anything. Those bombs start the ****. Once those bombs are out the way, then go in.



    Yea, it doesn't.


    uh-huh


    Ok, I have no problem at all camping and playing hit and run and creating my walls for damage. I can be a tool and keeping getting damage without waiting to kill you at 142. Just play this way and be evasive till you at like 160/170%. Hell even 200. Then land a kill with any move I want. by now my moves will be fresh and I don't have to rely on the typical fair finish to kill you. I choose when you die. Not the % meter when you at 142.

    I'm a seriously patient dude when I play on point. I got no problem doing this. really if the score is even. I have no need to rush. I have timed out lucario in tourny twice. Once on Battlefield and once on castle seige.



    I don't have to abuse it. I don't even abuse it on meta knight when I am getting edgeguard and can make it back. its called smart evasion. Also that typical mindset that you have is the reason I can make it back so easy and weave moves. cause I know most would know this or be thinking this in matches. So I am gonna be smart and hit them with something they not expect. its a fighting game term called "option select"


    Uh-huh, already covered that.


    Did you not just say an aggressive one does horrible against Peach/ So how would it be even? Kinda hard to make me seriously believe the quote below this.

    vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv




    Snake is not even like that vs Peach and he camps/spaces/pressures better than Lucario.

    Again, you have that thing charged, you can't camp me. And have to come to me to get damage. I on the other hand don't I can play hit and run with camping. or just stay in one place camping you. I wont have to burn one attack to get damage off you at all until you get in my face. Which you have to to stop me from tossing stuff at you. Same time to get to me you have to go through all that I just explained.

    This seriously does not sound/look like a ratio you just stated.
  12. Browny

    Browny Smash Hater

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    Nice contradiction right there. This MU is bad for peach because she will often be faced with God mode Lucario, yet it would be WORSE for her if lucario is always weaker?

    The Aura boost is CLEARLY beneficial in this matchup rofl, its one of the prime examples of when it is most effective (Others being jiggs, sonic, Samus, shiek etc)

    Dark.pch, maybe try re-evaluating your opinion on the matchup by considering that THE OTHER PLAYER is capable of doing mixups too and thinking about thier options instead of how 'I have x many options to counter the enemies 1 because they cant think'. Its not always about you, you know.

    /on topic, I agree with everything Rickerdy has said :)
  13. Dark.Pch

    Dark.Pch Smash Legend

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    I'm slowly tempted to take this dude off my ignore list to see what he said on this match up. But I have a feeling it's something stupid.
  14. Yaaay

    Yaaay Smash Master

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    Here, I quoted it for you :).


    :053:
  15. Illmatic.

    Illmatic. Smash Legend

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    Why does Dark get in a fight with everyone that enters our boards?

    I'll may do a writeup later, but it seems as though everyone has hit like everything about this matchup.
    I play Trela like every other day, and I used to play MythTrainer so much it's unreal.

    Funny matchup to say the least. Certain aggressive Peaches can excel really well against Lucarios while defensive Peaches will find themselves at a wall forever.

    Regardless, this matchup is all about who gets the first kill. Peach can rack up an insane amount of damage on Lucario in a given amount of time, but that can be her overall downfaill if she cannot land the kill because Lucario then can easily dish it all back out. However if Peach does aquire the first kill she is sitting in a safe little bubble to where she can risk trying to pull off the strings to give Lucario more damage and have a better position when she comes back to her second stock because she doesn't have the threat of death if Lucario's aura is low.

    and vice versa for Lucario except the fact that Lucario can kill alot easier than Peach can.

    I've skimmed over a bit of what Dark Pch is saying, and he's definitely right on one thing. Peach's nair works wonders in this matchup.

    If the Peach kills first, 65:35 her favor.
    If the Lucario kills first, 70:30 his favor.

    Overall 55:45 Lucario's favor in my opinion.
  16. Steam

    Steam Moderator

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    I didn't contradict anything :/

    I said it would be 55-45 Luc if always at base power, but aura boost makes it around 60-40 :/

    @illmatic- 65-35 if peach gets the first kill? Peach isn't snake :/

    @pch- we're not going to Ftilt if you're clear across the stage, nor are we going to do anything from a distance besides aurasphere. you won't just be able to land turnips on us nor is it some godly camping tool. and nice one assuming Lucario will just spot dodge or roll when pressured. a lot of peaches still mix up lucario with bad lucario and/or 08 Lucario. and Nair isn't going to be useful unless peach is inside because Lucario very easily outranges it :/ also don't forget Lucario's Nair is quite similar except a few frames slower and a lingering(er) hitbox. IDK about range though I'll test it later.

    edit: also from the lucario frame data

    Bair
    Hit Box out on frame: 15
    Hit Box 2 out on frame: 18
    Hit Box 2 in on frame: 29
    IASA: 33
    Completes on frame: 49

    and your frame data

    Fair
    Duration: 54
    Hits on Frame: 16 (max range @ 17)
    Hitbox Duration: 16-19 (4)
    Aerial Cooldown: 35
    Landing Lag: 22
    Autocancels on Frame: 20

    dark.pch please actually check data before just denying things.
  17. Illmatic.

    Illmatic. Smash Legend

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    did you even read my whole post?
  18. Steam

    Steam Moderator

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    yes I did, getting the first kill only changes the ratio that drastically if you're playing like... Snake. I don't even think it throws of the ratio by 20 points agaisnt him. and when lucario dies first against snake, he's pretty much screwed since snake will now either live til 200% or til lucario is near kill% on his 2nd stock :/. since peach is pretty light and doesn't kill with the first mistake past 110 luc has much more room to come back on his 2nd stock. Also when peach dies first it's definitely not 70:30 luc. it doesn't really change anything. you just have to avoid getting hit a ton on your 2nd stock. you have no aura so you're still just as strong and can kill him just as well as you did on your first stock.
  19. Yaaay

    Yaaay Smash Master

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    He said "yeah it doesnt" as in it doesnt matter much.

    And it doesnt, honestly.


    :052:
  20. Steam

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    oh my mistake then.

    They have pretty much the same range too :/
  21. Queen B. Kyon

    Queen B. Kyon Smash Master

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    XD people and frame data
  22. Nicole

    Nicole Brawl Backroom Member

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    praxis is good at this matchup, and he plays campy and boring, apparently. PRAXIS NAMESEARCH YOURSELF.

    kyon, you think i should team with a lucario? :p why?

    matchup time...
    i think its hilarious that anyone wants to call this a 65:35 MU. nearly every lucario i played (and my experiences are extremely limited so i wont say too much on this MU) has told me how bad it is for peach, and i've only lost to one lucario who knew the MU. oh, and lee martin. but i don't really count him, especially at the time when i played him...i think it was at least a year and a half ago.

    ANYWAYS, getting to the point.
    first of all, there are hardly ANY matchups that are worse than 60:40 in this entire game, minus bottom tier chars. to call peach & lucario, at any point in the MU, any worse than 6:4 for either side, is ridiculous.

    personally, i think this MU is pretty even. i think you lucarios are highly overestimating your aura - peach is a difficult char to hit (like sonic, who you guys claim as another prime example that the aura really helps you against as well) and conversely, she does not have that much trouble hitting you. peach is good at gimping and lucario is somewhat lacking in defensive offstage options. lucario can combo peach pretty well if he has no aura, but when he does, his moves hit her too far away for him to follow up and string some moves together. of course he can kill peach quite well, but he kills just about everyone well. peach of course struggles in that area, besides gimps, she'll be lucky to kill you before 150ish%.

    lucario can do nothing but camp, but i dont see it being that effective. peach is not bad at approaching and she excels at baiting and punishing. it would be better if the lucario sometimes camped, and sometimes approached, imo. lucario's camping is hardly foolproof and peaches are used to being camped (at least i am) by people that know the peach MU, so she will be used to having to approach campers. i really doubt the top level lucarios camp this MU away, although I don't have any proof of that cause i've never played a top level lucario (except lee when i was really bad).

    that's all i have to say.
  23. Steam

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    Aura actually makes Lucario worse in most MUs IMO. but against peach it helps him a lot. It basically just makes him... better lol. Just because a character is "hard to hit" doesn't mean that Aura won't help luc against them. they'd be just as hard to hit without aura. Lucario will just spend a lot of time at high% in this matchup, swinging risk/reward much more in his favor.

    Lucario should not be getting any strings on peach at any % since she can just DI away and nair or something.

    Lucario really needs to be Zoning peach and waiting for an approach when he has the lead.

    It's definitely not a 65:35 since peach can still get early kills on lucario and rack damage fast. It's just if Lucario's playing smart Peach should have a hella hard time killing lucario. 60:40 Luc at best 55:45 Luc at worst. I'd lean more towards 6:4 though.
  24. MythTrainerInfinity

    MythTrainerInfinity Smash Lord

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    Sup, Ill? I thought I brought up your NAir before Dark.Pch :x

    Oh and don't forget if for some reason the Lucario is really behind he still can pull off a miracle sometimes and pull a win even if two stocks behind. Aura is very very influential of this match.

    To give people an idea about how hard Lucario hits when we're finally FAir killable... Here's the data for even stocks, non-decayed.
    Basically that's just one - two intervals away from max Aura on most moves, when you can kill us with FAir.

    With lightweights if you're at like 150% and we're at like 100% a fresh UTilt/Dtilt can kill.

    When both characters are at 140%ish basically any of our moves not named FAir and BAS will kill you.

    Be careful when trying to land FAirs when we are near the ledge of the stage, if we powershield Shield DI grab you our Backthrow can kill at roughly 140-150%.

    I'd like to see Lucarios use more charge canceling in this MU though.

    Oh and our backwards glidetoss goes further than Diddy's.
  25. Steam

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    Did this to meno at my very first offline tourney XD

    <3 Meno
  26. Dark.Pch

    Dark.Pch Smash Legend

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    Ok, I'm not replying to that.

    Who in the world is fighting here. I am not fighting with anyone. Stop assuming so much. And I am not even gonna comment on the rest of your post.

    Ten there is no point to even bring up your use of tilts. if Peach is in your face, she should be Nairing to hit you out of moves or use it to space and retreat. if A peach wants to be all aggressive and float happy with dairs, then go ahead and tilt them. If not you really won't be finding much use for that thing. Cause again the stuff that I said I can do to punish that move.

    And no one assumed anything. it is human instincts. I know about this and do it to all types of players. You can't react to anything cause I have you nothing to react too. Now if I am right there you gonna flinch and do an evasion move or even attack. Then I react to punish. I play close attention to human instincts. You won't have any clue what I will do. I can run to you then stop in place then look at you. You might side step sit in shield or roll. Its a term called option select as I explained before, this has nothing to do with a typical lucario. When I speak of match ups, I don't bring typical play into it. I talk about high level play.

    I won't be able to land turnips on you? Who do you think you are, falco? Where you think Peach will be getting most of her damage from? Really when this is a campy match up? You are getting hit with them. Really if I play a hit and run. Hit you, get my damage then camp. Create my wall of turnips and spaced moves and mix in pressure. You have to get through that. And will be taking hits. Especially when you are off stage.

    Nair beats everything lucario has upclose.



    Ike has good range on his attacks and kill power. One problem is His moves are easy to see and lag. So it makes it hard for Ike to land kill moves. Which is a problem. Diffuiculty of something is important.

    Peach is not a monster at killing. Which can make it hard to take a stock while she is at risk of dieing sooner. Now for lucario that is a problem. Thus he slighty wins.

    You downgrade Peach defense game and spacing. You have all that power. Now what good is it if you can't touch me. It becomes hard for you to touch me. Difficulty of that matters. And you have a aura charged? just lost your rights to camp me.

    If Lucario is playing smart? Ok, what about if Peach is playing smart. Add both not just one.

    "If lucario and Peach are playing smart, match up is................................"

    You just saying lucario it can be against some scrub peach or not a very good/smart one.

    He does not win by that much. Slight advantage.
  27. Umbreon

    Umbreon Moonlight Pokémon

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    overall i'd say lucario is pretty easy for peach as far as viable characters go. nair oos all day.
  28. Steam

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    the difference between lucario and ike is Lucario is actually pretty fast movewise. Look at Lucario's frame data. especially on aerials. Luc's aerials are very fast and his tilts are pretty fast as well. the only things that really lag are special moves and smashes.

    I don't understand what's so hard about shielding, Z catching, or instant throwing turnips. or clanking with them with a retreating fair or something like that.

    and as MTI said when we're both at 140ish lucario has a MUCH easier time killing because basically everything kills while you only have laggy/predictable moves.

    and you can't just assume peach's turnip walls will automatically give you damage.

    Also our jab, grab and Utilt (if you're behind us) will outspeed your Nair Up close assuming you count the frames it takes to jump. course you still have jab.
  29. Eddie G

    Eddie G Brawl Backroom Member

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    This matchup is even.

    Peach is only threatened by aura if the player is on autopilot and spaces like an idiot. Lucario is only threatened if he doesn't play keep away from Peach's strong pressure game or if he's offstage. The rest of it simply comes down to who makes the better reads when they count.

    I've played Lee (admittedly in a semi-bet/friendly initiated by my buddy Fonz to see how well I know the matchup), it was dead even the whole match until the last stock when I made some good reads and took the game.

    If the Peach doesn't give him free AS/f-smash/fair hits or grabs due to bad spacing/impatience, it's all gravy until a last stock last hit scenario usually.
  30. Dark.Pch

    Dark.Pch Smash Legend

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    I don't understand what is so hard about evading his aura and attacks when he is trying to kill me when I can just freepull/bone walk for camping and evasion.

    See, I can play this game too. Also if i turnip juggle, I can sen 2 turnips at you then be right behind both to follow up. You can't catch/stop it all Cause if it was that simple. You or anyone for that matter would never get hit with turnips. Yet you and the rest of the world do. So really, what you just said means nothing.


    What? Where in the world did you get that idea? Peachs moves don't lag. And most are save on shield. predictable? what cause of Fair? Who said I have to go in and try to kill you with Fair all the time. Get the typical gameplay out of your head. I have options in kill moves. And since this is a campy match, I can just get damage and go on and on till you are at that death %. Then just wait for that opening (thats right wait, I an not even gonna go finishing for the kill even if you at 300%) then go and kill you with anything I want. Not this typical fair you seem to have in mind.

    Al of Peach moves auto cancel except Fair if you land at the wrong time. But its not hard to tell the timing for it. Quite easy. Grounding floating my air attacks make then even better.

    Fsmash on shield is save. and if you was to try and Fsmash me, I can just instant dash attack and stop you. or if you was to come at me, I could jab after. or simply just run/evade.
    Again Peach- wait let me rephrase that. a SMART/defensive Peach against a Smart lucario is hard for lucario to hit. it goes to a point where I can actually time out lucario.




    I don't. Cause that is not the only use of that wall. Think outside the box.
    if I am behind you, I bair or reverse ground float Nair. unlike every character in this game, I don't need to jump to use my air attacks. it's something called ground floating.

    And no, you can't grabbed well spaced Nairs. you ethermiss or get this. Do this all the time to lucarios that try this.
  31. Steam

    Steam Moderator

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    you have to jump to float :/

    if you're already floating of course ya you have frame advantage. not a very significant one however.

    also there's plenty of things lucario could do to get around you following up behind turnips. But that's the whole rock-paper-scissors game.

    Also what do you do if Lucario has the % lead and is camping you? stock lead?
  32. MythTrainerInfinity

    MythTrainerInfinity Smash Lord

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    You can be grabbed due to Shield DI. This is something that I keep telling people to learn, but they often ignore me >.>
  33. Steam

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    good look shield SDIing a 3 frame move :/
  34. Dark.Pch

    Dark.Pch Smash Legend

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    Lets see, I don't have to wait for Peach to be airborne to dish out an air attack that would be over you. I ground float my air moves would come out quick and be right in from of you. That's the point

    And I too have that same option for my wall and follow ups, so I am not even gonna deal with this. But I will say though it becomes hard to hit me. U can deny this all you want or think of any lil thing to try and make this false. I'm not gonna bother with this anymore.

    Easy, keep fighting the way I have been and not rush you. Why am I gonna rush you for? You have the lead, ok, I just move in slowly and continue my hit and runs. If you wanna run from me you go right ahead. You are not all that fast, and you can't run in a straight path forever. So ether way you have to get through me and my wall If you wanna play this cat and mouse game. And this be my chance to get damage and even up the score. Ether way I am in no rush at all. I seriously don't have to be against lucario.

    Man, this match up debate is annoying and boring. Fact I still have patients for this to keep going is beyond me.
  35. Steam

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    if Lucario has a FCAS he can punish tons of approaches :/

    especially when they'll starting going through turnips.

    and I mean there's still start up frames for jumping even when you ground float. not like it really matters though. a few frames here or there isn't a whole lot.

    and is it easy to hit lucario? I never said that peach is easy to hit. you just always talk is if all these things you're gong to hit lucario with will be guranteed. it's not easy to hit either of them.
  36. Dark.Pch

    Dark.Pch Smash Legend

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    I never once said it was easy to hit lucario. Point to me where I said that.

    I dont' have to be approaching you if you going through turnips, you are coming to me. So this " FCAS to punish approches when going through turnips" does not mean anything. You are coming to me.

    Then on top of that you are bringing up things like your third paragraph that really don't mean anything and not what I am talking about with ground floating.

    De que diablo, I don't think I wanna debate in here with this dude anymore. Someone do it for me or just let him say what he wants. This is seriously annoying.
  37. Steam

    Steam Moderator

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    you kind of imply it by saying your turnip walls (and whatever else you do with your turnips) WILL get you damage. but it doesn't matter

    and I'm not talking about Lucario going through turnips, I'm saying FCAS is even better at punishing approaches when it's strong enough to go through turnips :/

    and lol if you don't want to argue with me then stop replying. I'm kind of tired of this too because neither of us are understanding each other's posts
  38. Browny

    Browny Smash Hater

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    Here you go guys, knock yourself out. Figuratively, and literally!
  39. Steam

    Steam Moderator

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    I am butthurt
  40. FlameWaveK

    FlameWaveK Smash Master

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    Steam take a seat. please.

    This Match-up, played correctly in 8 minutes should always go to time/last hit if played both sides play properly.

    It needs an extra 2 minutes imo :( 10 minute timer!

    Its either even or lucario's advantage slightly, I don't like to think in ratios anymore ><

    I don't think we win by that much... its just really annoying for both characters.

    like peach-diddy or diddy-ddd.

    may or may not disect the posts above.

    EDIT: .... 65:35? MTI REALLY?
    I agree with this, completely. mostly.

    Whenever I play a peach thats really good at the match-up or raz I ****ing HATE losing the 1st stock, like, even more then usual. because peach can easily rack a quick 0-50% or even 70ies in a few seconds, and when she's back all her moves are fresh again so she doesn't have to worry too much about staling her killers too badly <_<

    if you're both playing it right-ish though whenever I die I usually have your damage racked high enough that a uptilt kills 150+%-ish on FD/SV/BF :confused: not like landing uptilt is easy on peach. we're not snake.

    Both of our characters are stupid good at avoiding each other's kill moves. So gay lolzzzz

    I'm still gonna beat you in our money match though.

    - skimming through D.Pch and Steam now, god my eyes are bleeding. -

    LOL EVEN DARK.PCH DOESN'T WANNA DEAL WITH STEAM'S BULL****.

    ****ing lol.

    Questions for darksies though, maybe other peaches too, but mostly dark.pch.

    1. Was saying nair beats lucario has up close a generalizing statement or do you truly believe that? I think when steam was refering to the back hitbox of uptilt he meant buffer turnaround uptilt [any lucario worth their salt can do that]. As previously stated jab outspeeds it if you're doing it from the ground [I think your jab will outspeed that anywhere you'd use sh float nair anyways though]. I think we can also do the Grab-Armor thing where we take damage but we eat up the move by grabbing your bodybox and we successfully grab you [not a bad trade-off considering we have aura haha]

    tl;dr explain further on nair raping lucario up close.

    2. How does lucario having a charged AS result in peach outcamping him? You didn't really go into detail on this.
    does this extend to half or nearly full charge AS as well? I've never played a peach that tried to just throw turnips at me, lead or no lead so I'm genuinely curious.

    and 2 questions for darkies only.



    Can't you guys get along :x these are meant to be Match-up Discussions not Match-up Debates ><

    Character pride I guess lol

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