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Match-Up Discussion #5! King Dedede

Remzi

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ah i forgot nair >_>

I usually grab, a lot which isn't easy against D3. I also don't feel safe smashing at all in this matchup, because if you miss you get grabbed. Ftilt is rendered useless here, as is jab for the most part. And yea thats pretty much it
 

Emblem Lord

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Jab isn't useless. Same range as DB and it's safer on block thanks to IASA frames. Good pushback and sets up nicely for Marth's zoning.

Smash when you force an airdodge/sidestep. Which is the only time I ever smash anyway really. Unless my opponent did something ********.
 

Remzi

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Oh, I see. Thanks for the info on the jab, I'll try to put it into use next time I play a D3 and see how it does. Also with the smashing, most D3's I play don't really sidestep. They just camp like the whole time. And it works >_>

But I could see myself smashing more after an airdodge, thanks for the tips :D
 

JST

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50:50 sounds good, maybe maybe MAYBE 55:45 Marth imoimo.

Marth has to play very very patiently, possibly even to the point of extreme frustration (From my experience from playing against Marth).

At the same time, DDD has to be equally careful. Tiny openings in DDD's defense equal massive ****, especially from Marth, who has the speed and moves to put the hurt on DDD.

It's funny tho. DDD on defense faces a lot of pressure from Marth on offense who is also under extreme pressure to watch his spacing.

(Pardon me cuz I don't know a terribly great amount about this particular match-up, particularly Marth himself)

Marth is probably one of the best characters in the game to play a spacing game against DDD. Doesn't mean it's easy tho: A slip-up equals 15%-35% depending on where you were grabbed. Just know if that there are any Waddle Doos along the way, or if there are any walls, expect a brutal beating - highest CG combo without walls that I've ever seen dealt over 117% (!). NEVER stop mashing buttons trying to get out of the CG - the DDD might be stupid and try to jab you at low percents or more than once at any other percent.

Marth will want to focus on punishing. I think it's the only way to play a good DDD. Marth has the effective tools for that - speed, very quick attacks (DANCING BLADE ARGHAGRHAGR) and 'gtfo' moves (Dolphin Slash), GREAT range and spacing, aerial DI (Which is vital in this match-up), and a very good pressuring game. Above all, tho, Marth has to watch his aerial momentum, and his movement in general - Marth does not want to be anywhere NEAR DDD for more than a split second. Please don't SHAD near or airdodge into the ground near DDD unless you KNOW you won't be punished.

Marth combos DDD's balls off. Killing could be an issue if you can't land tippers.

For the love of god DON'T smash unless you are 120% SURE that it will land and/or you'll go unpunished.

Marth is good at forcing DDD to use his upb. This alone gives Marth quite an edge.

Shieldbreaker. But don't use it unless you're **** sure you'll get DDD or else he'll become wary.




DDD has a fair amount going for him as well. DDD can just sit back and toss Waddles all day while awaiting where your approach, which is where he thrives. It becomes a battle of who is more patient - we'll assume that both players aren't idiots. D3 will only toss waddles at a range where he can't be punished, and a good Marth shouldn't be bothered by them (Gordolol). At a closer range, the waiting game begins. D3 creates a wall with bair or he can tempt you into approaching with his SH fairs (He'll just ftilt or shieldgrab you upon landing if you rush). He could also just sit there with his shield up like the ghey penguin he is, which is what he will most likely do.

Getting grabbed by DDD is inevitable. DDD racks up immense damage from this and can refresh his best moves along the way. The CG can also put Marth in two perfect positions for a WoP, which equals a stock being taken if you just happen to get caught. It shouldn't happen to Marth tho, his recovery is way too fast and it's hard to gimp Marth when he has time to respond.

D3's moveset (I honestly believe that D3 can almost match Marth in the air, but they go even on the ground), imho, is incredible, although majority of them are situational. Notable attacks are: Bair, dair, fair, Ftilt, utilt, and fsmash (lol).

Inhale. My fav D3 move. Means that shielding or even pursuing an aerial D3 (Which he should rarely be doing btw) is rather risky. I honestly think that it's the best mix-up move in the game - it's way too good. :] DDDcide is scary. Don't underestimate the use of this move.




That's all I can think of right now. :]

edit: wait a sec is this discussion already done?
 

Steel

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Fact is, you CAN zone dedede once you get past his ftilt range. Once you are inside just make sure you are outside his grab range.

Yes, this discussion is done and we decided on even as well as the D3 boards.
 

~ Gheb ~

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I think it's 60:40 DDDs favour. I'm busy atm so I'll write my reasons later
 

bludhoundz

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I think that's a bad idea.

What if D3 intentionally does not grab you again as a mindgame and you just DS? He's going to be able to punish you pretty badly. In fact I've seen multiple posts in the D3 boards encouraging just this (not specifically against Marth, but anyone trying to break the CG). I've also seen it used and it ain't pretty for the guy trying to break out.

I wouldn't count on messing up his CG with DS. Just let him chaingrab you. Spam spotdodge if anything, there's a lot less lag afterwards.
 

Steel

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Well since it's bumped.. Let's rediscuss this match up.

It has recently been bumped to 45:55 Dedede from 50:50.
 

BacklashMarth

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Apparently people think that anyone with a chaingrab automatically ***** marth.

sarcasm/

I think the match is pretty even. Marth will specifically be playing as to not get chaingrabbed and D3 will be going for the easy damage. Provided marth effectively spaces for a majority of the match, he only has to deal with D3s f-tilt range and his waddle dees. Get D3 off his balance and he is pretty easy to get a few extra pokes on (d-tilts n such). Spacing is important in this matchup (as it always is) but seeing how you can be outranged by f-tilt and his grab, this is more difficult than usual. 50-50 IMO
 

_Kadaj_

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^Same question

I thought once Marth gets past DDD's ftilt he outranges DDD's attacks? He just has to maintain spacing between the tip and where DDD can cg him.
thats exactly what i thought hence why i 3 stocked a ddd in the last tourny i was just in also they cant chain grab you all you have to do is di away from them. and you shouldnt be getting grabbed with proper spacing anyway
 

feardragon64

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thats exactly what i thought hence why i 3 stocked a ddd in the last tourny i was just in also they cant chain grab you all you have to do is di away from them. and you shouldnt be getting grabbed with proper spacing anyway
Eh, but I'm not saying it's easy to maintain that spacing. DDD can chain bairs together if you get too close in the air, has pretty nice ranged attacks if you get too far in the air and give him time to use them, chain grab if you get too close on the ground, ftilt and waddle dee's to annoy you(and possibly set up for a fsmash with the punching one =[ ) and keep you out on the ground. It's not exactly easy to do against a good DDD, but Marth has all the tools to do it. I still call this match-up even. =\
 

Sinz

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thats exactly what i thought hence why i 3 stocked a ddd in the last tourny i was just in also they cant chain grab you all you have to do is di away from them. and you shouldnt be getting grabbed with proper spacing anyway
If they can't chaingrab you. They are really bad.

Also, no matter how much you watch your spacing, your gonna get chaingrabbed.

DI doesn't help vs D3 basically. ://////
 

_Kadaj_

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since when can marth be chain grabbed by ddd? i've yet to see ddd chain grab a marth that didnt di away from
also for his b-air walls just walk out of the way, up-b if it comes in contact with your shield and only then or just simply jab to knock him out of his attack you have to range to beat his b-air
 

Emblem Lord

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Uhhhhhh.

Dedede can CG Marth. It's not even a question. Dash to shield grab = CG on Marth.

Anyway, Steel gave the nod to Dedede at my request. Although I can't ignore that Marth's and Dedede's seem to be going dead even in tourney.

Ratios can always be changed.

Don't sweat it guys.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Because it's not worth to CG Marth. I'll explain my points:

Ppl here are basically saying that Marth has the advantage once he's inside the ftilt range and that he can pressure him but it's not like that at all. First of all it's hard enough for Marth to get in there. How is this supposed to happen? Marth may have - as usual - the advantage if he gets DDD in the perfect range for Marths sword but Dedede has the advantage at every other range. Marth has to get through Waddle Dees and Ftilts, which is harder than it sounds. Dedede can outcamp Marth easily outside of Marths sword range. However, he also wins, once Marth is within grab range. And the margin between Marths sword range and Dededes grab range isn't that big at all.

Marth can't play his defense + punish game but has to play offensively and - that's imo the important thing - he just can't afford to make a mistake. If Marth makes a spacing mistake, it's a free attack for Dedede. If any of Marth moves misses because he's too far away it's a free ftilt for Dedede. If he uses any of his moves from too close, it's a free grab and I just like to remind you, that a grab by Dedede means usually 19% more dmg (1 pummel + bthrow). It's simply impossible to space that perfectly for the entire battle. If Dedede doesn't space his ftilt correctly, the worst thing, that could happen is getting hit by the Dancing Blade (UpB won't reach him iirc) and even then Dedede has to make a horrible spacing mistake to get actually hit by more than two hits of the DB.

Dededes grab are troublesome for Marth b/c all of them can set him up perfectly. Dthrow - even without the CG - is good, since it brings Marth exactly in ftilt range. Uthrow exposes Marths weak spot below him to attacks like DDDs usmash, uair or utilt. Fthrow and Bthrow at the edge send Marth in a awkward angle off the stage, where his recovery options are limited and predictable (no stage spikes)...

I could be wrong though (like I was at the ROB match-up)...After all Marth is only one of my seconds but I play a decent Dedede here and there and he gives me lots of troubles. More than I can give to him. Marths options are essentially limited: He can't really play defensive, he can't really punish and Dedede is difficult to KO (unlike Marth). That's why I think it's 60:40 Dededes favour
 

Emblem Lord

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F-tilt isn't that serious though and neither are waddle dees.

They have low knockback and don't really set-up for anything. They are annoyances.
 

Steel

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Marth is one of the harder characters for Dedede to grab.

You make it sound like his ftilt is the ultimate camping tool. While it can keep Marth out, Marth can easily SH fair over it. Not to mention the ftilt has bad knock back and little damage. Once Marth is inside he is a much faster attacker. All D3 can really do at this point is attempt a shield grab, and while a Top level Marth won't be spacing perfectly the entire time, he will certainly be able to rack up a good amount of percent. D3 will try and abuse his spot dodge at this point too, but Marth's dtilt > dancing blade ***** that. Marth can also chain fthrow him off the stage.

His recovery is also easy to harass. Both on stage while floating back and while coming back up. If he chooses to land on stage he will eat either an up smash or counter, even an up air if you space it correctly. If you see him cancel it you can just grab the ledge. If you are not fast enough to grab it, then D3 still has to make his way up. Marth is great at ledge traps, and D3 sucks at getting out of them.

You also mentioned how fthrow and bthrow send him at "awkward" angles.. it's recommended that whenever possible Marth recover HIGH, not from below. Much safer.
 

bludhoundz

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Ftilt isn't really a big deal for Marth. It's too slow for D3 to spam. Shield one and then take a step or two forward. You won't be seeing it again until D3 resets the spacing. And if you do it's too easy to punish.

Aerially this is close. D3's uair is a pain in the *** for Marth. Marth's uair isn't quite as good against D3 due to the good range on his dair. However it is punishable if whiffed. D3's fair has good range and is disjointed, but has a little startup lag. His bair is amazing as usual, but it isn't disjointed. Swat his foot with your sword, see what wins.

When trying to gimp D3, fair -> retreating nair is amazing. Not only is it fairly safe, but it often tippers the nair.
 

_Kadaj_

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EL i dont know why D3 gets he nod because it does seem as if they are dead even. To me this match is kinda comparable to ic's but with more range and weight.

it seems like you guys are giving d3 the advantage primarily because of his chain grab f-tilt and dee's.

are there any vids of a good ddd and a good marth where the marth actually gets chain grabbed?
 

HRNUT (Honey Roasted)

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its basically like this, marth has problems killing however D3 has a sure fire kill on marth the whole match, if marth could easily kill D3 then i think that it'd be dead even but, its obviously not even when marth dies early and D3 survives until 180 percent, marth is too easy to sheild grab that the true problem in this match-up, shield grab to edge then to make it back you usually have to take a couple of feet to the face, i definitely think that this match is in D3 favor, only thing i can say is to do shield breaker alot until you can read his dodges because there will be alot of shielding when you fight him
 

feardragon64

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its basically like this, marth has problems killing however D3 has a sure fire kill on marth the whole match, if marth could easily kill D3 then i think that it'd be dead even but, its obviously not even when marth dies early and D3 survives until 180 percent, marth is too easy to sheild grab that the true problem in this match-up, shield grab to edge then to make it back you usually have to take a couple of feet to the face, i definitely think that this match is in D3 favor, only thing i can say is to do shield breaker alot until you can read his dodges because there will be alot of shielding when you fight him
You've already said, sheildbreaker to punish over-shielding, as well as dtilt to shield poke. If hes spamming spot dodges, put in some empty FFSH's and punish with dancing blade.

And why does DDD have a guaranteed K.O. on Marth? How is it any different from saying all Marth has to do is force DDD to use his up+b then dolphin slash him for a K.O.?
 

HRNUT (Honey Roasted)

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once he knocks you off the stage, he's gonna get a really good opportunity to punish you one way or the other whether its a Bair, Fair, and when coming on the stage either a grab or an upsmash or uptilt, i'll do this match over and if i find something new then i'll let you know, i'll fight Seibrik (FL best D3 player) at the next tournament and i'll see if my experience changes any.
 

VietGeek

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You've already said, sheildbreaker to punish over-shielding, as well as dtilt to shield poke. If hes spamming spot dodges, put in some empty FFSH's and punish with dancing blade.

And why does DDD have a guaranteed K.O. on Marth? How is it any different from saying all Marth has to do is force DDD to use his up+b then dolphin slash him for a K.O.?
Because realistically speaking, Marth will make mistakes. Dedede's best killers also exploit Marth's weakness from below.

That being said, once Dedede finds an exploitation to CG you, he'll do so, and eventually rack up enough damage to just Uthrow you and set up for a kill and the fact that even if you don't get killed instantly that a Dsmash could wait you on your descend is rather disheartening.

Really Dedede has an easier time killing and racking up damage than you do trying to get in there and do the same. Unless you land early Fsmash tippers or a SB, you're not going to kill him until at earliest 150%. While he could kill you around 110+.

Also add to the fact that it's difficult to keep a steady, dominant offensive w/ Marth and Dedede has to just play defensive and exploit your weakness below and the match-up is similar to ROB.

Dedede is very difficult to deal with until you reach very high levels of play. Perhpas then the match-up breaks even. In lower levels, I can see Marths taking this match-up as one of the more uphill ones they will encounter.
 

feardragon64

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Another quick question, Doesn't marth outrange DDD's aerials with a tipped bair when attempting to get an early kill on the side? On most of the neutral stages it works pretty well from what I can tell(avoids the word experience lulz). In a worst case scenario, DDD air dodges so much he has to use up+b and Marth can counter it.
 

Steel

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His aerials aren't disjointed, bair anyway.

But know that his aerials have lag after them that you can punish. Not speaking of landing lag.
 

feardragon64

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His aerials aren't disjointed, bair anyway.

But know that his aerials have lag after them that you can punish. Not speaking of landing lag.
So isn't that a reliable kill method? Dancing blade finish with side b at mid percents and bair the hell out of him until he up+b's then counter it and repeat? I agree DDD has a good advantage when Marth is recovering(everyone has an advantage when Marth is recovering), but Marth also has an advantage when DDD is recovering. It goes both ways.

I stick by even.
 

Steel

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Oh, i didn't really read your post >_>

I'm not sure if marth's bair will beat d3's fair. Would have to be tested. Either way Marth can harass his recovery pretty badly.
 

-Nana-

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K, Dedede is a tough match-up.

His advantages:

- He's heavy.
- He has a great grab range and his ftilt outranges all of your moves.
- Decent recovery, though it CAN be taken advantage of if you can react quickly enough.
- Difficult to space against him.
- Powerful moves that can kill Marth rather early.

Marth's Advantages:

- He's faster.
- All of Marth's ground moves outrange Dedede's grab.
- Marth can beat Dedede's ftilt with a well spaced SH fair.
- Marth can get out of the chain grab.
- Can abuse D3's recovery.


So obviously you can't out-range D3. His ftilt beats everyone of your moves, shield breaker included. However, a SH fair will allow you to go over the ftilt and you can begin to apply pressure. You can simply jab/shield/jump over his Waddle dees.

Once you are inside you outrange D3's grab and dangerous up tilt with pretty much all of your moves. Poke him with well spaced tilts and fairs and you shouldn't get punished.

If D3 can't perform the chain grab perfectly then Marth can escape with an up b. D3 will recognize this eventually and wait for the up b and punish you. Don't abuse it, if you know he will wait reset your spacing and start over.

D3's recovery is pretty easy to abuse. You can probably get a fair or two off the stage as he floats back for free %. If he uses his up b and doesn't cancel it you can do a well timed up smash, up air, counter, or wait for him to land and punish that way. If he cancels it and heads for the ledge try and react quickly and grab the ledge. He'll fall to his death.

This match up is just about watching your spacing and playing smart. Make a mistake and you'll get grabbed or up tilted. His smashes should be pretty easy to avoid.

50-50 imo.
I agree with pretty much all of this. Marth can combo DDD due to his weight with utilts and uairs/bairs if they retaliate with dair. I always go on the Marth boards and see people saying counter is good for this or that...no it isn't. Counter is move that should only be used in rare ocassions because it's easily predicted and VERY punishable.

UpB will get you out of the chaingrab always even at 0%. Spacing is crucial because of his range, but that's always true for every fight. I personally find the best way to approach DDD is with aerials and dancing blade. Bating him and waiting for his move also works wonders because his attacks have lag and are punishable. Marth is much quicker in the air and good spacing keeps you from being punished. His recovery is very punishable due to it's lack of speed and his size although he outranges you, good prediction can avoid that since DDD is easy to hit from any direction.

DDD does outrange Marth like you said especially on the ground and he can kill Marth early on with his strength and the random gordo happens too often. His teather recovery may lead to edguard>gimps as well. It's a tough Match-up but in the end.....

50/50....for now I feel like my opinion on this may change I need to study this match-up a bit more.
 
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