* Folds my hands together and leans on them.
Then..prove me wrong.
Give me solid evidence as to why the match-up isn't 80/20 or worse.
Whether I buy into it or not is irrelevant. I'm asking you to defend your point of view.
Dude I have defend my point before. I did this with you in the Peach area before. Look here dude.
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Dark.Pch Vs Emblem lord.
Dark.Pch
" For one thing. Marth has less range than before. And he cant combo like he did in melee. Or chain grab for lil gimp kills. His combos you can just air dodge. What weakness thoses Marth have in this fight. For one thing, his recovery got nerfed. And he is not that hard to edgeguard nether. But thats not his weakness.
He can swat turnips all he wants, he is ether gonna get hit or get caught with a follow up if the player is smart. This Match up is not hopeless as you may think it is.
Peach has to space herself just as much as you do. Cause you have a sword. Also, Marth cant fight under him. Thats another weakness he has. Now, how to abuse it? Simple. Dont play the average Peach. Play smart. Don't Dsmash every time you side step of flinch. Dont roll back and fourth to everything Marth does cause your scared to get Fsmashed or grabbed. Marths will wait for your reaction, then when you roll, sidestep or Dsmash, we will retaliate with a grab of Fsmash.
Marth now love his F-B so they will use that alot. And for spacing. Some marth may F-B you then stop in the middle of it. Wait for you to roll or side step then retaliate. They can also do F-B then in the middle just Jab you or Dtilt you, then start it up again or wait for you to do something then react to what you do and you get punished. Or he can just finish the combo and Down B you for the last F-B hit and stab your shield. Really good for spacing if Marth is too close and fears of getting grabbed or attack out of the shield.
If Marth is too close. Peach Can actually Grab Marth in between the F-B combo with good time at the start of it. or roll behind him and punish Marth if quick enough with a Grab, Dtilt, Dsmash, etc. You can also grab Marth in between his Jabs.
Use your turnips wisley. Dont just throw it once you get it then go in with a FC-Fair. such a common Peach move that people will know what to do. and when you hit thier shield, the Peach may Jab after. Play it smart. bluff the Marth. Mindgames. Think ahead. Turnip pillar him (if you know what that is) Or jump and Z drop the turnip and grab him. Mix up how you go at Marth.
And Watch out for his Fair. it it hits your shield and he spaced it, he can do w/e he wants soon after. Cause that Move has no lag. And his Up air as well. so Be careful when over him. Timed Down airs can stop his up airs. And a Good air game can do damage to Marth. Her Dair is good at shield pressure, eating and stabbing the shield. You can even fast fall through the shield with her Dair and you can get a hit of and stab the shield better depending on the size of the shield and the timing on how you fast fall the Dair.
Marth is really Good at spacing. so you gotta learn how to get past that. Turnips is one way, and well timed attacks when he does his. Peachs Back air comes out fast and has range.
Not to mention it got buffed and hits 2 times. So that is a bonus. Its a really good move for spacing. And can beat his attacks if you time it right. Her Fair as well.
Know what attacks you can do out the shield when he hits yours. if spaced, best thing you can do is maybe Fsmash out the shield. and even if you miss, you space yourself, so you have time to retreat before Marth gets you. FC>Nairs out the shield work wonders if he is close enough.it all depends on his spacing and if he is behind you or in front. Rolling is good but you can be punished for that cause the Marth may catch on............or fact is, you have no choice but to roll. Though you can try to dash attack out of the shield. Since it has priority and hits twice. Decent range too.
Marth can be a sitting duck when recovering. aim well with turnips. or time Back airs or Fairs off the stage to hit him It works and when it hits, thats it, Marth is done. You can run to the edge, Jump and throw a turnip the other way. so now you face the stage. then back air him. and Peach can come back to the stage no problem cause you still have your second jump to float then up-B back to safety.
And their combat speed is nearly the same. Peach got faster so you can take advantage of her speed with quick thinking.
Learn what Marth looks for in this match up. common habits Peach players have Marths will look for it and try to punish.
- dont roll alot.
- Don't always Turnip to FC>Fair.
- Dont Dsmash everytime you flinch or get scared.
- dont dash attack alot. get some grabs in there, cant stress that enough. Then Mix and Match your grabs with Dash attacks. and vice versa.
- Think ahead. Be aware of what Marth is abusing that you do. think clearly when your close to him. Dont spam the same stuff over and over.
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Emblem lord:
"Also saying Peach loses to Marth, is just another way of saying she is at disadvantage. I'm not saying she can't win.
Also player skill and personal experience is the worst thing to bring up in match-up analysis unless you ar at the pinnacle of skill or close to it. It is always assumed that both players will be at or close to the height of the metagame and virtually equal in skill.
Ok, let's look at what you said. Ummm, not going to comment on Dedede, except to say that he is a beast. *shrug
Let's look at what you said about Marth.
Brawl isn't about combos, so Marth's lack of combos isn't a valid reason as to why it's a better match-up. Peach loss combos too remember? His recovery is pretty much the same. Not good or bad just average. Shieldbreaker makes up for the loss of repeated dancing blade recovery.
Anyway. alot of the stuff you said can be summed up well. You said she needs to play smart and not be a *******, correct?
Marth can do that too. You didn't post how Peach controls the match or how she has advantage over him though which is what you said before. Actually from the way you posted about how Peach constantly has to watch out for his sword and play a reaction game, it SOUNDS like you are conceding that MARTH controls the match, which would mean that he has advantage.
Also, why the hell is Peach trying to approach Marth anyway? You have Peach as the one who is appoaching in your examples. Why? Peach should be camping. not approaching.
Also I will call false on some of your examples. If Peach Dairs Marth's shield she will eat up b all day. Dolphin slash is 1 frame start-up and is invincible the first 5 frames.
Allow me to ask this question.
How does Peach have advantage over a character that is superior to her?
Marth is faster, stronger, has more range, with more knockback. He has better tilts, better aerials and better smashes overall. He also has the most kill options out of every character in the game and can kill as low as the 80's. All she has over him is turnips.
Marth sucks vs projectiles? How so? You never explained it. Doesn't matter though since it's false. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many ways to deal with projectiles, especially item projectiles like turnips. Roll, dash into shield, spot dodge, SH to airdodge then buffer any action from the airdodge. Attacking when the turnip is in your general vicinity allows you to grab it while attacking. Also airdodging when it's near you nets the same results. He can still jab turnips and perfectshielding them causes them to dissappear and it's very easy to perfectshield in Brawl.
You didn't talk about who has more options, who has better defensive options, who has the better out of shield game, who racks up damage better, who can pressure better, who can kill better, who is safer overall, who has more priority.
Marth has all of these things over Peach."
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Dark.Pch:
" Also saying Peach loses to Marth, is just another way of saying she is at disadvantage. I'm not saying she can't win."
No it's not the same as saying she is at a disadvantage. One character could be another. Don't mean automaticlly they are at a disadvantage. Pikachu Could Beat Marth. Does not mean he has the advantage just cause he can win?
"Also player skill and personal experience is the worst thing to bring up in match-up analysis unless you ar at the pinnacle of skill or close to it. It is always assumed that both players will be at or close to the height of the metagame and virtually equal in skill."
I dont see how that that is the worst thing to bring up. Both players can know the match up and have their own personal way of thinking and playing at equal skill. But its not always equal in skill. I am stating match ups as when both players know what they are doing and know the match up.
"Brawl isn't about combos, so Marth's lack of combos isn't a valid reason as to why it's a better match-up. Peach loss combos too remember? His recovery is pretty much the same. Not good or bad just average. Shieldbreaker makes up for the loss of repeated dancing blade recovery."
I'm saying without the combos and the 0-death stuff he had on Peach, its less of a struggle when fighting him. Also while his Shieldbreaker gives him distance, those seconds he has to charge it, it leaves him to be a sitting duck. And if he lets it good too soon, he wont go anywhere
"Anyway. alot of the stuff you said can be summed up well. You said she needs to play smart and not be a *******, correct?
Marth can do that too. You didn't post how Peach controls the match or how she has advantage over him though which is what you said before. Actually from the way you posted about how Peach constantly has to watch out for his sword and play a reaction game, it SOUNDS like you are conceding that MARTH controls the match, which would mean that he has advantage."
Peach can attack him from distance with turnips. She does not have to get close to deal Damage to Marth. While Marth has to get close. Marth has More Range that Peach Up close....a sword. So it be stupid to rush and and such with poor spacing. Thats why I keep my distance and space against him. Same with Roy In Melee. I dont rush him. he has a sword so I cant just rush in at him. Even tough Peach destroys roy. So watching out for his sword and looking for his reaction game does not mean he controls the match 24/7
"Also, why the hell is Peach trying to approach Marth anyway? You have Peach as the one who is appoaching in your examples. Why? Peach should be camping. not approaching."
Cause some Marths dont always go to you? If you always worry about the player going to you, what if you meet one who does not go to you all the time. You would need to learn how to approach one. expect anything.
Also I will call false on some of your examples. If Peach Dairs Marth's shield she will eat up b all day. Dolphin slash is 1 frame start-up and is invincible the first 5 frames.
Ok, what if your shield is not full? Your gonna eat a Dair. and her 4th kick has knock back. Pay attention to the shield, Know what will eat through it and know what your enemy can do out of it. Its all about understanding and straight common sense.
"How does Peach have advantage over a character that is superior to her?
Marth is faster, stronger, has more range, with more knockback. He has better tilts, better aerials and better smashes overall. He also has the most kill options out of every character in the game and can kill as low as the 80's. All she has over him is turnips.
The turnips was the advantage I was talking about.
Marth sucks vs projectiles? How so? You never explained it. Doesn't matter though since it's false. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many ways to deal with projectiles, especially item projectiles like turnips. Roll, dash into shield, spot dodge, SH to airdodge then buffer any action from the airdodge. Attacking when the turnip is in your general vicinity allows you to grab it while attacking. Also airdodging when it's near you nets the same results. He can still jab turnips and perfectshielding them causes them to dissappear and it's very easy to perfectshield in Brawl.
He can swat them all he wants. I already went through this one.
"You didn't talk about who has more options, who has better defensive options, who has the better out of shield game, who racks up damage better, who can pressure better, who can kill better, who is safer overall, who has more priority.
Marth has all of these things over Peach."
Well for defense options I'll explain mines and you state yours. She can attack out the shield with her turnips. And use the Glide toss to get near as well. Also she has the turnip pillar that can be used defensive. Her floating out the shield for a quick attack or retreat while attacking as also another way of defense. And may not mean much but.....toad if you know Marth while come at you with Fairs or F-B.
Her Dair is good for pressure and can lead to lots of things.
Also Peach is one of the characters that can edgeguard him well and even gimp him with one.
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Emblem Lord:
"Turnips aren't that good. And Marth surpasses her in all areas except recovery.
You can't dispute that Marth is the better character. It's impossible. He is just better and he has all the tools to give him advantgae in the match-up. How are turnips anymore of a pain to deal with in Brawl then they were in Melee especially since turnips got worse overall? Glide toss is nice, but it's really just a nice little spacing trick/surprise move and it certianly doesn't make up for weaknesses. You went voer that Marth can swat turnips, but I found it interesting that you ignored the other things I said. I guess you figured since you can't refute it, why go into it. Which is fine, since it honestly can't be refuted.
Turnips are among the easiest projectiles to deal wti hand even though Peach has some nice tricks and set-ups as a character she doesn't have what it takes to stand on even gorund with Marth let alone hold advantage over him in the match-up.
Marth's options out of shield are Dancing Blade which does anywhere between 16% to 21% and all 4 attacks regenerate his other moves. DB comes out in 4 frames. Dolphin Slash is another one. Comes out on frame 1 and is invincible for 5 frames. Hits on frame 5 and can kill at higher percents. Any of his smashes out of shield are good and they all kill well. Tipper f-smash kills around 80%. U-smash has a suction effect that tends to throw people into the sweet-spot and kills well now. Also fair out of shield to be more defensive and safe. I mean Dancing Blade, Dolphin Slash and U-smash out of shield are better then anything Peach has out of shield.
Also Peaches Dair leads to nothing. It knocks them away on the last hit.
So.......there we have it."
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Dark.Pch:
"My main point was that peach can beat Marth. The way I seen you towards me before was not a good one. so I assumed that you were just trying to be funny or something. I think its quiet obvious that Marth is the better character.
Oh and Yes, Her down air leads to things. Its all about using your head. What part of her Dair sends her enemies flying? Her 4th kick. So what can you do? Do your dair and land before the 4th Kick comes out. Then you can grab, Utilt, upsmash, dsmash, etc. I do it alot and it works. its all about thinking bro."
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With all of this I played you at montage and you had a 2 stock lead. I nearly got three stocked. But pulled through and caught up to bring the game down to high damage one stock each. But clapped me with a Fair FTW. If all this and that match it does not even come down to that insane rating of Neos. Sorry but no dude. I don't care if he is Neo and what he says people will follow cause he is up there. This match up is not like that at all.
Try me Emblem lord. I am ready to counter anything you throw at me. Marth has the advantage but it is 60-40 Marth.