Match-Up Discussion #10! Peach

[Dark.Pch]

Yea this was fun.

You sir......were a worthy opponent.

 

[rm88]

While Marth has a notorious advantage, I usually do fine when I'm extremely cautious, campy and defensive, using my aerials wisely, and gimping his recovery everytime it's possible. I'd say 60-40, 65-35 at most. More than that is ridiculous, Peach has much harder match ups.

 

[White-Peach]

Its really hard to say with this matchup. I'm leaning somewhere 60/40 marth to 50/50. If the peaches are using pivots and spacing to manage marth's reach, it leans towards 50/50.

Peach retains her priority and speed, meaning she wins out on clank, if spacing is close (which isnt a lot anymore, peach has more reach in this game) enough to to hit him, otherwise go back to camping. Marth will destroy peaches that are too high in the air, but a more grounded player wont easily be swatted around.

Peach still racks damage easily with short combos, and stringing in even more attacks is easy if the peach player is very comfortable with her moveset. At best, marth can hope for a powershield or bad spacing on shielded attacks. The marth player has to be comfortable enough to know where the combo ends, and the more loosely stringed attacks begin if he wants to break out, otherwise he has to wait for peach to miss, or for her to knock him away.

Peach players really need to learn spacing in this game, because her range has been extended on nearly all of her attacks since melee, and less hitstun/shieldstun means its easier to retaliate against poorly-spaced attacks. Good control over spacing really eliminates the fear of marth's -teensy- sword and his lolzoning~ because spacing is controlled by both players, and when marth clanks with peach (and he will) she'll get free damage off him.

Marth's should be very aware that peach is most dangerous to approach from behind, as his attacks are traded with BAir, and shielded hits WILL be countered with BAir (and possibly double BAir hits in a single counterattack). Another note is that while RAR BAirs are sexy, peach approaches facing forward, and starts combos with grabs and slaps (behind a glidetoss or not, DAirs should just be swatted away, slow enough to stop pitiful DAir approaches with marth). Retreating from a glidetosswith a pivoted attack (maybe FSmash?) will hit her arm and cut through the turnip she slid in behind in. She's punishable, but she has to make a mistake (continuing with slap opener after seeing marth retreat.) Marth is punishable too, he has a nasty habit of swinging that sword from overhead, and peach can swat him to disrupt his attacks and start combos. Her UTilt is always there, like some crazy(cute) shield of priority if marth tries to come in from too vertical an angle.

She's terribly open when she's too far off the ground, and you'll probably get the majority of your damage from getting your hits in while she's airborne and unable to swiftly respond to your movements as she could if she was grounded. She needs to be airborne though, to score lower % KO's with her FAir. Its a dangerous game at higher percents to get at her when she's willing to trade hits as long as marth dies. She can still start a gimp kill with her faster aerials from anywhere on the ground after successfully shielding your approach (and if you dont approach, you get camped ), but her FAir kills are definately something to be aware of.

I'm tired.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's advantages

- More range overall
- Better defensive options
- Stronger offense overall
- Better kill moves
- Faster in running speed and aerial movement
- Deals greater damage hit for hit overall with more knockback
- Better moveset for the most part

Peaches Advantages

- Better combos at lower percents
- Turnips increase her offensive and defensive capabilties
- Slightly heavier
- Floating gives her increased mobility
- Better edgeguarding
- Better recovery


So from the get go we see the statistical advantages that Marth has over Peach. Peach really has nothing on Marth other then Turnips and a few other things that only her survivability a little bit. If Peach didn't have turnips this match would be flat out ****.

But she does have turnips which helps her out tremendously. But not in the way most people might think. Throwing turnips at Marth doesn't faze him at all. He laughs at that. He can swat them or catch them with ease. What helps Peach out really is that with a turnip in hand she now has a safer way to approach and a good way to reset spacing and get away when Marth is zoning her.

Glide toss into slaps, tilts or grabs are good approaches and good ways to put pressure on Marth. If Peach spaces her glidetoss correctly she can use it to approach and avoid retaliation. If she has a turnip in her hand when she is shielding she can glidetoss from shield to reset her spacing and get away and continue to camp him. Overall her turnips really help her out. Without them she really can't safely approach and she has a much harder time dealing with Marth's zoning. Any kind of approach she has, Marth can punish even a glidetoss so she must be careful. Glidetoss is only nonpunishable when it's spaced well so that Peach is beyond Marth's range. Of course in this case she wouldn't be able to follow-up with much if the turnip hits since she is farther away so it's a trade off.

Peach has another defensive option to deal with Marth's zoning and that's Toad. Still it's fairly risky and should only be used sparingly just like Marth's counter.

As far as kill moves go Marth wins out here no question. Peach has a tough time killing and that's one of the things that really hinders her during the match. She will have to get kills through gimping, but her edge guarding is solid thanks to her floating and her turnips. Still it will be harder for her to get kills in then Marth, there is no denying that.

Needless to say, if Marth manages to get his hands on Peaches turnip she is in alot of trouble. Marth has alot of follow-ups and his glidetoss is very long and fast. Dancing Blade, F-smash, D-smash, and U-smash are all viable follow-ups after a turnip hits. He can also do a Shieldbreaker if she shields or a grab as a mix-up. Marth doesn't need to worry about spacing as much with his glidetoss as well since he can glidetoss to up b to stuff any retaliation attempt on Peaches part.

Overall Marth has much better tools. I call this match as 65/35 Marth's favor.

White Peach - Marth and Peach aren't on even ground. That's just impossible. Just because Peach can clank with a few moves and has a few combos you think they go even? First off going for clanks isn't a viable strategy since it's harder to do consistently. Also you siad that Peach can punish Marth.

When can she do this? Marth with his superior mobility will have a much easier time spacing. Peach can punish with Bair? How? Peach isn't going to punish SHFF Fair or any well spaced attack with Bair. She would have to JC from shield and then attack. This gives Marth enough time to up b or just roll away.

You said all Marth can hope for is a powershield or poorly spaced attack.

Not so. Marth can punish well spaced attacks from Peach. Pretty much any well spaced move I think other then her Fair and her F-smash. The other stuff has enough recovery on it that Marth can punish or he can up b to punish out of shield.

You said it's hard to say who has advantage in this match-up.

No it isn't. You simply overestimate Peach.

This fight clearly goes to Marth.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I agree with you here expect for one thing.

About Peach having a hard time to kill. This is not entirely true. A Peach play came to me a few weeks ago and his problem was he can't kill with Peach. This is what I told him.

"It seems to me that you use your kill moves alot. Save your moves that you need for killing. Use lots of jabs, get damage off of grabbing. When you grab them don't always launch them so fast. Kick them a few good times then toss them. N-air cant kill so well so use that alot. Dair hels since its not a Kill move. Space dtilts. And turnips. Once you get them to a good % Now you can rely on your kills moves like Fsmash and Up smash. Your fair and bairs, even upairs. uptilt as well.

Try to save your most important moves to kill. Cause when you get them to that good %, all of your kill moves will be at full power. And it will be less of a struggle to kill."

A lagre % of Peach players abuses the moves they need to kill with. And abuse the turnip>fair. I have forced myself against characters like ROB, DDD, DK,Marth,Peach and ike, to save my kill moves and save it for when they are at that danger %. I am learning this with the others. and this is hard. But it's worth it. Once I get this down its all good. Peach does not need to rely on gimping. But gimpimg does help and makes this less of a struggle.

 

[White-Peach]

Its not just clanking, but clanking will happen because she's should almost always be throwing out attacks (slaps) to fill space where (any character) thinks they have time to do something while she's in range. I'm just saying clanks get her free damage

Anything she shields is free damage. Why? She's really tall (aerials hit her shield sooner, and other characters are well off the ground so theres time) and her OOS NAir and (preferable) BAir are stupidly fast. Marth can attempt to space all he wants, but peach will be weaving inside and outside of tipper range. If she's outside, she's safe and marth does no damage. If she's inside (or even if her shield is hit with a tipper aerial) she's fast enough to counter with a BAir (NAir lacks reach to deal with a tipper, so stay facing backwards peaches~), her body moves backwards significantly to close that gap. She doesnt need a powershield to counter because she's so tall, and once your hit connects with her shield she can move while marth is stuck in cooldown. Marth cant UpB or roll, because she initiates the counter before he touches the ground, at the moment his sword touches the shield.

Her jab has more range than her FAir, so, spaced properly, Marth cant do anything.

Its hard to say who has the advantage because there are too many "if, then" statements. You're simply basing your judgement off of unskilled peaches (And I would agree with your rating PP)

Peach has the advantage on defensive options once you accept that she's an OOS beast And her combos continue at higher percents, but there are fewer of them (things that come out of slaps, turnips, and weak hits from BAir/NAir still combo at higher percents--the DAirs and Tilts wont combo anymore.*edit-DAir still combos if you land before the last hit) Otherwise i agree with your advantages list.

Her ability to kill is hinged on retaining her FAir (I dont use it to rack damage at all, but i'll hit shields with it and follow up with slaps) and being patient. Its not -easy- to make an opening with it, or (lol)trick marth into being vulnerable, but its easy to accept that you'll trade hits and kill him if you wait until he's got his back to the ledge (and not necessarily on the ledge, i'm just referencing stage control.)

I like your little tidbit about him grabbing a turnip, but i just dont think its terribly scary, because its preferable that he holds onto it~ he cant use A attacks (short of the item smashing AT), and Peach can more freely leave the ground and pummel him, making him wish he never grabbed it in the first place

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are making false statements left and right.

Peach isn't punishing a well spaced fair or a tilt for that matter. If Marth does a FF Fair he hits the ground while Peach is in shield stun, not to mentioned that tippers give increased shield push back. Peach isn't punishing that. Frame data does not lie and game physics don't lie. Peach would be pushed too far to retaliate. Same with d-tilt. You seem to think a Marth would do SH in your face and fair.

If a Marth does this, he is an imbecile. He deserves to lose in this case.

He should only do this to retreat with his Fair in which case Peach can't punish.

To punish OOS with an aerial you have to jump from your shield. This takes several frames and then you have to attack which takes several move frames. Marth isn't vulnerable long enough to get punished with an OOS aerial of Peach blocks one of his pokes/shield pressure moves.

Marth outranges all of Peaches stuff.

This is not disputable. Marth outranges her jabs with his tilts.

You keep talking about Nair and Bair. Marth outranges both these moves. They are fast, but to abuse them she has to get inside. This entire match she has to get inside actually and it's one of the main reasons why she is at disadvantage.

How the hell is Peach weaving in and out of range any better then Marth when Marth is faster in air and on the ground? Peach can float, but that's far more risky.

And please explain how a clank gives her free damage. When characters clank they are at neutral on the ground. Marth can roll away before getting hit.

 

[White-Peach]

Just doing 1 FAir? Figured it was 2 in a short hop, and you can punish the first one. If marth is level with the ground with the tip of his sword grazing the outermost portion of peach's shield, then no, she cant do anything. Marth cant do much either because he'll get a stutter-stepped FSmash to the face (the instant she dashes for the fsmash, her body leans away and marth wont hit her, she leans with the fsmash she's starting, he wont hit her ). This kind of perfection doesnt hold up in a match, especially with the peach constantly moving. She'll get free damage.

Peach floats out of her shield, no startup frames (afaik) There's plenty of time considering the fact that her aerial startup time (now available) is something akin to marth's upB startup time Can you UpB another marth to stop his pokes?

I completely gave you marth's range > Peach's range. But with speed, peach is faster. She'll hit marth, or clank~ then hit him. I'm not disputing range

Getting inside is as simple as dashing and shieldstopping into aerials to combat marth's aerials. On the ground? Glidetoss to force him to react, hit>combo/clank>hit/retreat.

Marth's movement speed is fast, but peach's attack speed is faster. Get into range, mentioned above, and simply attack. Marth can move all he wants to TRY to space, and peach TRIES to space as well. You seem to think that spacing is one-sided, and its not. Marth will sometimes outspace peach, and nothing will happen or there will be a clank and nothing can happen. Or peach will close this space (slightly) and hit him (she's faster~) or clank, then hit him. Clanks happen a metric ****ton if Peach is slapping intelligently, thats a fact

Clanking gives her free damage if you try to attack. And i'm glad you brought up rolling, because Peach can initiate the 2nd slap (the first hit of her 2 slaps) after the clank to try and get you, and dash attack if you're in front or behind, or BAir if you try to roll behind. She'll hit marth with the 2nd hit of her dash attack if he rolls away from her.

I'm sleepy, bug you tomorrow~

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth could just up b after a clank and stuff anything.

Honestly, your points are situational and you make it sound like Marth can't get a hit in.

Marth doesn't need to space FF fair perfectly. When he lands he can safely get away regardless of spacing. If Marth is pressuring Peach he doesn't have to do anything. He can keep zoning and Peach has to respond. That's the entire point of zoning. Unless she has a turnip she has no option that isn't risky or situational. Rolling could get her punished as well as spot dodging.

Spacing isn't one sided. But when one character has the range advantage as well the movement advantage, spacing definitely favors that character over the other.

Clank all day if you please. You will soon meet up b if that's all you have up your sleeve.

Seriously, do you just play Marths who attack relentlessly and spam SH double fair?

THIS is why we don't go on match-up experience especially when it comes to Marth because most Marth's SUCK!

 

[Dark.Pch]

EL play me on wifi.

 

[Emblem Lord]

My Wii no longer recognizes my internet signal and I'm fine with that since Brawl sucks, wifi sucks, and Nintendo sucks.

And why the hell are you letting White Peach spew incorrect info?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Dude I was gonna step in, but you are taking care of it. So I don't need too step in. you got this

 

[White-Peach]

You're a really strange person EL

You're arguing as if the game is completely robotic 100% of the time. Data is data, but you refuse to acknowledge that players arent perfect 100% of the time. I simply argue from that standpoint, how things ACTUALLY occur in a match.

My points are situational because... I'm giving you situations? In my first post I said the matchup was hard to really place, and clarified in a later post that it was because there are too many "if, then" statements, and I continue to stand by that. This discussion has been going in that direction, "If marth... then peach", "if peach... then marth". You're making it sound like these situations dont occur OVER AND OVER throughout a match, instead believing that marth is perfect 100 percent of the time and peach can never get a hit in. I've never argued something silly like that (like~ 100% powershielding every attack makes all of his attacks pointless, because the game is imperfect like that.)

Marth does need to land that FAir perfectly, because peach is too TALL. With her back facing marth, his sword will hit her shield too high (with imperfect spacing, he hits from overhead) for him to be safe. The better his timing/spacing is, the sooner he can do something. The BAir will come out, and she will lean over and hit him and land into another attack (like a DSmash which can shieldpoke and start a combo.) Marth's best bet is to stutter step a jab/tilt to change the spacing for her to miss. See these real play "if, then" statements?

Marth's range advantage is small, try again. And I'd go so far as to say peach has the movement advantage, because her instafloat>drop allows her to cancel a dash and start pivots at any time to continually mess with spacing.

You honestly think to UpB as your solution to clanking? If you can do it safely and not get horribly punished, kudos to you, but my reaction is like "oh crap, slap again!" which is realistic and hard to punish

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you slap after the clank up b will plow through you since it's invincible.

Of course there is more to a match-up then data, but when you are trying to figure out who has advantage, data is the first thing you turn to as it lays the ground work for who will have the advantage.

It's certainly more substantial then bringing up garbage like clanking and trying to act as though it will have a significant impact on the match. A Clank guarantees nothing. A clank puts you at NEUTRAL with your opponent.

How the hell is Peach going to do a Bair then land and combo Marth? Marth can DI away and she can't do anything after that.

Why do you keep stating falsehoods?

Marth doesn't need to be perfect, but since it's his advantage Peach needs to be much more flawless then Marth. That's essentially what a match-up is. The one who has to play smarter and more perfectly to win is at a disadvantage.

Seriously, Peach isn't punishing a FF fair with bair. It simply can't be done. Marth recovers too quickly for her to punish it. And even with poor spacing Marth is still fairly safe since her bair actually has around half the range of Marth's fair.

*sigh

I'm not going to humor you anymore by responding. I take match-up discussion seriously and as long as someone makes valid points I will keep talking to them, but you are speaking nonsense.

BTW Peaches slap isn't hard to punish by any means for Marth.

If you hit his shield Marth gets an easy up b since Peach stretches out her body for the slap.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The only move Peach has to outrange Marth are the turnips but you can smell them coming from 10 miles. Otherwise Marths advantage is pretty obvious...

...how is Peach supposed to react faster than him? Marths upB has invincibility frames and comes out almost instantly. If anything, a clank gives Marth the advantage but never to Peach.

 

[White-Peach]

I wholly understand UpB will win out on a clank. I just think that UpB'ing in front of peach is a substantial risk, while slapping isnt.

Clanking is significant when you're fighting someone who thinks they're a god of priority Clanking leads to combo starters (free damage if its just a double slap~), which I would say is significant.

The initial frames of the BAir are too strong to combo, they clear people away, and at higher percents, lead to edgeguarding. The latter frames of BAir can be triggered (I like to bring her "backside" to about chest-height, float>BAir>drop) and leads into pivoted slaps/tilts/fsmash.

You can keep saying that you dont believe me, I dont really care. It just looks like you dont know the matchup.

A different style of Peach gameplay (heavy with slap openers, pivots, and OOS punishment) doesnt have to really -struggle- to win, lol. Its in marth's favor, I've said that in my first post. But this perfection you speak of, well, you dont get that through UpB'ing out of fear You're being unrealistic and marth would be horribly punished (depending on %)

"*sigh" go learn the timing, its not that hard once you get it.

Again with your silly UpB. Clanking at higher %'s, near the ledge, you can get a kill. You need to display your willingness to UpB to stop a combo just once to have it baited and *****

Byebye EL, I'm off to start my day~

 

[Zankoku]

Nobody thinks Marth is a god of priority. Except idiots. Any smart Marth main will know that the god of priority is Meta Knight, and deal accordingly with Marth's overall LACK of priority (except that his jab clash-cancels with anything).

If a Peach relies on punishing from shield, she's ****ed. Completely, utterly ****ed. Any smart Marth will notice the Peach is turtling, and proceed to apply HARD pressure on a stationary target. What are you going to do from there? Spotdodge, and you're in either a neutral or slightly disadvantageous position, no different from shielding the fair except that your shield didn't take the thig. Roll toward and you get punished with practically anything, including a finisher if you're at that %. Roll away and Marth can either chase you down with a DB or grab if he saw it coming or just slowly adjust his position and continue to pressure until you do something else punishable. Attempt to do an aerial out of shield when the spacing won't allow you to reach him (floating from shield still has the initial jump frames, btw) will just get you punished, either by the fair he's about to do or anything from the ground because they all outrange your nair.

If Peach shields any more than necessary, then Marth wins the matchup because he never has to commit himself to anything ever while Peach is stuck with a grand total of five subpar, very punishable responses.

If you want to play the Marth matchup, you stay the hell away when you don't have the positional advantage so you don't need to shield, and you're pretty much only left with the option to cut in with a reversal if/when Marth makes a mistake in his wall/makes a mistake by actually committing to an approach.

 

[White-Peach]

I'm sorry? I never said Peach would remain still, I mentioned her ability to freely pivot with instafloat>drop, and shieldstopping into OOS attacks. Anyone who remains in their shield deserves the pressure/hit (gogo Shieldbreaker~.) Actively respacing (just as marth does) either frees her from a hit (out of range) or closes his spacing, where he starts to take damage. I mentioned controlling spacing already.

I dont know why you're talking about making movements that wont connect (choosing to retaliate when it wont hit) or OOS NAir (lacks range, which I've said is less preferable to BAir.)

"If peach shields more than necessary"... lol? More bad gameplay? I dont know why you're continuing to bring up bad gameplay. Getting into his tipper range while he's airborne is baiting

So many "if, then" statements Its all about taking advantage of an opening Peach creates or punishing holes in marth's approach. When you're done, get out and camp. Marth's strength in this matchup is that he can get her into the air on a mistake, and keep her there where she's vulnerable. Peach's strength is that she can knock him off the stage without killing him outright, and gimp him. On/near the ground, is much more blurry.

(Oh what to do today~)

 

[Zankoku]

Peach can create an opening? With what, "clanking"? The only openings she'll get are the ones Marth makes when he's being stupid. And there shouldn't be any reason for approach in this matchup.

 

[White-Peach]

Glidetoss>Slap/RAR BAir. Let me look for the post I made about her glidetoss...

(i'm not familiar with the quoting and stuff with this board, forgive me if this is a little messy)
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4962570#post4962570

"From Glide toss; Slap-Grab, Slap-Dtilt, Slap-Dtilt-Sliding Slap=> Anything, Slap-Slap, Slap-RAR BAir(Short-hopped only; short-hopped fast-falled into a 2nd BAir at instafloat level while DI-ing away the 2nd BAir; instafloat level only), Slap-NAir(full jump, short hop, or instafloat [full jump is least punishable when paired with a retreating BAir landing behind other guy]), Slap-Stutter-stepped FSmash (retreating)"

"(not all combinations are ideal, use the one that is most spaced and safe on block, and continue the chain of attacks until it something hits[and followup on that please ], it ends, or you have pushed them out of range. some characters have fast OOS options on perfect shield, and its a good idea to stop when you hear that clank sound, or stutter-step a retreating fsmash [peach's body leans away while she dashes back for the split second, and leans again when she starts up her fsmash.] Reiterating that not all combinations are ideal or suited for all opponents, practice making these strings of attacks as fast as you can before deciding if they're ideal options to use against your opponent.------**** is situational )"

The post wasnt made specifically about marth, but she definately has options to keep mixing things up and being difficult to read. She can approach if she likes, and it is difficult for marth to maintain his spacing and not whiff (do you use that expression here? lol) while keeping in mind that she's free to shieldstop her approaches and bait him while he's airborne.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok let's talk basic strategy and counter measures based on what Peach is doing.

If she has a turnip - Expect to either be camped or expect a glide toss to slap, grab, or d-smash as a basic follow-up. If she throws the turnip you have several options. If you were attempting an approach you can shield and it will disappear. You may also try to dash attack or SH fair. Dash attack can be risky, but you have a greater chance of catching the turnip in this case if that's what you are aiming for. She may also try to SH and throw the turnip as a lead in while she floats. Just fair the turnip in this case and you will either catch it or grab it.

If she glide tosses - Your response depends on her spacing. If she was farther away when she started the glide toss then most likely you won't be able to punish from shield. You are better off rolling away when the turnip hits your shield. If she was closer to you when the glide toss started then it's an easy up b for you if you shield the turnip. If it hits then you will most likely be slapped or tilted. The damage isn't too significant so don't worry. She might be able to Nair you if she was close enough so be aware of that. If your percent is high then you will die from that.

If Peach is floating - Don't bother trying to play a spacing war. You generally have more range except for Peach's Fair which is very slow at 16 frames, so you can stuff that if you see her wind up. Peach may try to bait you by floating in then floating back. If you anticipate this then she is at your mercy. You could jump at her like you intend to fair and then simply DI towards her as she floats back and pound on her. You could also just walk to her while spacing f-tilts since she can't match that range in the air. F-tilts in general will really shut down the utility of Peache's Float game thanks to it's speed and range.


What else does anyone want to talk about?

 

[P.O.P.]

Talking to me Dark.Pch?

Dude...you have no chance.

Didn't you read what NEO said?

This match is 90/10 Marth's favor. 80/20 at best.

I really think that is a big overstatement. If ur marth is a ground attack using type, peach can still approach u with turnips, aerials, grabs etc. Sure u can forward smash, spam a etc. but there are moves around that plus don't forget she has toad and peach bomber if u like to do hit and run tactics. If ur marth is more of an aerial type, peach Fair outranges or exchanges hits with all of marth's aerials. saying 90/10 or 80/20 means that it is impossible for peach to defeat marth when IN FACT IT ISN'T! Plus marth is light enough to get killed by an aerial, smash, or tilt pretty early and he is very easy to combo with Peach and he can get gimped easy too. The best u should say is like 60/40 in marth's favor because generally peach has a disadvantage against marth, but it is still possible to win against a Marth with peach and by pass all those disadvantages.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I really think that is a big overstatement. If ur marth is a ground attack using type, peach can still approach u with turnips, aerials, grabs etc. Sure u can forward smash, spam a etc. but there are moves around that plus don't forget she has toad and peach bomber if u like to do hit and run tactics. If ur marth is more of an aerial type, peach Fair outranges or exchanges hits with all of marth's aerials. saying 90/10 or 80/20 means that it is impossible for peach to defeat marth when IN FACT IT ISN'T! Plus marth is light enough to get killed by an aerial, smash, or tilt pretty early and he is very easy to combo with Peach and he can get gimped easy too. The best u should say is like 60/40 in marth's favor because generally peach has a disadvantage against marth, but it is still possible to win against a Marth with peach and by pass all those disadvantages.

Dude..............Emblem lord was kidding about that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Please read threads in their entirety before posting.

 

[Shök]

I really think that is a big overstatement. If ur marth is a ground attack using type, peach can still approach u with turnips, aerials, grabs etc. Sure u can forward smash, spam a etc. but there are moves around that plus don't forget she has toad and peach bomber if u like to do hit and run tactics. If ur marth is more of an aerial type, peach Fair outranges or exchanges hits with all of marth's aerials. saying 90/10 or 80/20 means that it is impossible for peach to defeat marth when IN FACT IT ISN'T! Plus marth is light enough to get killed by an aerial, smash, or tilt pretty early and he is very easy to combo with Peach and he can get gimped easy too. The best u should say is like 60/40 in marth's favor because generally peach has a disadvantage against marth, but it is still possible to win against a Marth with peach and by pass all those disadvantages.

I disagree

Marth seriously outranges peach and can PUMMEL any of her approaches,

Not to mention peach's recovery is gimpable after the Up B

AND Peach's moves wear out eventually, not to mention you guys are light enough to be killed by a tipped F-smash @ 70%

If you have and multi-hit moves (Up-smash, Downs Smash) or are on an offensive rush, the up B out of shield can escape and most of the time, kill you


So basically:

Marth Owns Peach

He's Micheal Jackson, Peach is Tito (lame rush Hour Joke LOL)

Marth Should win almost all the time, if he loses, it's because of some stupid final destination recovery gimp. (joke)

 

[Dark.Pch]

I disagree

Marth seriously outranges peach and can PUMMEL any of her approaches,

Not to mention peach's recovery is gimpable after the Up B

AND Peach's moves wear out eventually, not to mention you guys are light enough to be killed by a tipped F-smash @ 70%

If you have and multi-hit moves (Up-smash, Downs Smash) or are on an offensive rush, the up B out of shield can escape and most of the time, kill you


So basically:

Marth Owns Peach

He's Micheal Jackson, Peach is Tito (lame rush Hour Joke LOL)

Marth Should win almost all the time, if he loses, it's because of some stupid final destination recovery gimp.

Peach moves don't wear out. If you abuse her kills moves then yea. You saved them like a smart person then no.

And dont give johns to Marth for losing to a Peach. Fight is about 60-40 Marth. A few advantages he has over Peach. EL listed them. The way you are talking saying "
Marth Should win almost all the time, if he loses, it's because of some stupid final destination recovery gimp." Is bais from a Marth main. Play a Peach that is stratigic, smart and saves her kill moves then come back with something not so bias.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Let's be real here though.

Peach is not a good killer.

When you are looking at every character and comparing them all to one another, this is how you must rank their abilities. When compared to the rest of the cast Peach is not a good killer and it's one of her main weaknesses.

Saving your kill moves is just a part of playing smart and it's not exclusive to Peach. Characters like Snake for example have a much easier time killing since they have fast safe spammable kill moves with good range unlike Peach.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Let's be real here though.

Peach is not a good killer.

When you are looking at every character and comparing them all to one another, this is how you must rank their abilities. When compared to the rest of the cast Peach is not a good killer and it's one of her main weaknesses.

Saving your kill moves is just a part of playing smart and it's not exclusive to Peach. Characters like Snake for example have a much easier time killing since they have fast safe spammable kill moves with good range unlike Peach.

You forgot Peach is good at racking up damage, thats is what you are suppose to do. Look at Meta, his kills moves are not that great. But he is good at racking up damage. If you just fight without no strat or wanna be fancy you wont get anywhere. I will not be swinging my kill moves at you so much. I'm just gonna rack up damage on you., which Peach does great at. Then get you with my kill moves which would be buffed.

Honestly as I said before. A large % of Peach players don't do this. They they wonder why even light characters live at like 130. If her moves are buffed, Marth is not staying on the stage for long, for Marth is also a light character. A Fsmash, Upsmash, Fair,Back air and even up air will end him at under 100%

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's not just that though.

Actually look at her kill moves. They are all either slow, or don't have good range or are unsafe on block. None of her kill moves are good. MK has D-smash. It's fast, with good range and it's very safe. As long as it's not spammed it will kill very well.

Peach doesn't have a single attack like that.

Don't ignore facts about your character. And who cares about damage racking? Don't try to ignore a weakness your character has by saying they are good at racking up damage. Peach is not a good killer. This is indisputable. Hell, Marth isn't even a good killer. He is a decent killer.

 

[White-Peach]

I agree that peach is not a good killer. Characters that can recover high she cant gimp because she cant reach them. She gimps pretty much everyone else "easily" short of super armor or really *fantastic* (shuttle loop) recoveries. To balance this, she has incredible racking potential, so she gets a lot of damage in quickly, then can bide her time until she has an opening for the KO shot.

While the attacks you listed -can- kill while fresh, it depends on the stage, positioning, and player DI. (of course it would be much better to wait until slightly higher % or until you're closer to the ledge[not on USmash, but thats hard to land anyway])

 

[Dark.Pch]

EL you should know me better than that. I am not gonna bias Peach cause I main her like most people do. I am keeping this real here bro.

Fast kill moves:

- Upair
- Bair
- Nair
- Uptilt
- Ftilt

So you saying Peach does not have fast kill moves kinda shows you need to learn more about your enemy before you make claims like that. and the rest of her kill moves are average speed. Bair is mainy her safest kill move because

- it has Range
- Its Fast
- Has 2 hit boxes

And I never said she was a godly killer. I am saying play her smart and she can kill. Peach players need to use common sense with killng.

Peach is good at racking up damage right. So I am gonna rack damage. I am not gonna kill you at the death zone % if I abuse my strong moves. But I can make up for it by racking up damage. Then when the time comes,I whip out the kill moves and call it a day. and you will be dead sooner than how the average Peach lets one live on the stage.

If Peach does not focus on her ability to rack up damage, no, she will not be killing people at good percentages. If she does, people will die much sooner.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ultimately my point stands. A good chunk of the cast kills better then her.

Also I said that all her kill moves have a problem that keeps them from being good kill moves. I never said she had no kill moves. I said none were good.

Good = Fast, decent range, safe on block and kills at moderate percents around 110 or maybe a bit higher.

Peach has no moves like that.

I'm dropping this now because honestly the debate portion of this is pretty much over. Now is the part where we talk strategy.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Also I said that all her kill moves have a problem that keeps them from being good kill moves. I never said she had no kill moves. I said none were good.

Good = Fast, decent range, safe on block and kills at moderate percents around 110 or maybe a bit higher.

Peach has no moves like that.

"Fast kill moves:

- Upair
- Bair
- Nair
- Uptilt
- Ftilt

So you saying Peach does not have fast kill moves kinda shows you need to learn more about your enemy before you make claims like that. and the rest of her kill moves are average speed. Bair is mainy her safest kill move because

- it has Range
- Its Fast
- Has 2 hit boxes"

That takes care of that. And I mind you Peach is one of the best spacing characters in this game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

*sigh

W/e man.

 

[White-Peach]

I dont think anyone is disagreeing with you about her ability to kill. It is rather poor, but it is offset by her ability to quickly rack up damage to allow for her poor kill moves to kill, or the % rises enough that even the faster, stale moves lead to gimping/offstage KO.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think, that killing isn't the main issue vs Marth, since he's light and a bair from Peach is fast enough to land a hit on him.

I just fail to see, what happens before that. How can Peach get Marth into higher % in the first place? I think, that's were she (and many other chars) loose against him.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I think, that killing isn't the main issue vs Marth, since he's light and a bair from Peach is fast enough to land a hit on him.

I just fail to see, what happens before that. How can Peach get Marth into higher % in the first place? I think, that's were she (and many other chars) loose against him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdYTtZ8_z9o

 

[Emblem Lord]

Do not post trash like that in the Marth forums ever again.

That Marth AND the Peach were made of fail.

Japanese metagame FOR THE LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSE!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Dark.Pch]

I don't see what the big deal is. Those 2 were good.

Now I would show a video of me fight Marths. But I'll bias from marth players saying "That Marth sucked that does not pro anything. Marth is a god, etc."

So I won't even bother

 

[darkspatan117]

I must admit peach was very strong in melee but she a lot nerfed for brawl