Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Spirst]

Vs Sheik, I've been able to escape the multi-jab most every time and punish with an fsmash. I tested this a bit on places even with grassy terrain and for some reason (perhaps fast falling+slippery traction?), Greninja is always able to escape Sheik's jab. It's something to keep in mind for this MU since her jab is one of her fastest options (frame 2 I believe).

Overall, Sheik beats us in neutral but in advantage, we have a greater damage output and can KO her earlier than she can KO us which is a blessing. I'd be wary of calling this MU heavily in Sheik's favor though I do believe she wins it slightly. Needles go through shurikens and our rather poor OoS options means Sheik doesn't have to fear too much when pressuring our shield. Additionally, Sheik's more difficult to edgeguard due to vanish and bouncing fish but on the flip side, Greninja isn't easy to edgeguard either. Greninja requires more commitment in his moves than Sheik does and has to make his count whereas Sheik is safer throwing out a number of things and seeing what hits. We can SS cancel through her fsmash and ftilt chain and punish her for it though the former is hard to do on reaction and requires a good read. I'd say 55:45 or maybe 60:40.

For Fox, it's weird. His fastfaller properties make him pretty straightforward to combo but I feel like he hits harder than we do. I'd need KO %s to be sure and I can't test at the moment but his usmash looks to be around ours in terms of KO potential. Being able to side B>up B has drastically improved his recovery and is no longer as easily gimped. Lasers do force approaches from us since attempting to shuriken camp him will lead to him having greater damage output with lasers I think and plus, he can just reflect. The only real grab follow-up I've seen from Fox is dthrow>fair>uair if possible so I'm positive we have the better throws overall. I feel like Fox vs Greninja is a very positional battle and is dependent on who has the most stage control/momentum. Both do fairly poorly on the edges of the stage when pressured. Fox, having quicker attacks overall, makes this easier to do for him. I'd say it could be slightly in Fox's favor as well but really not by that much. Again, in the 55:45 range.

 

[FullMoon]

Meanwhile Falco is slower than Fox and has a much slower blaster as well as having a slightly more gimpable recovery. So I guess Falco has more trouble keeping up with Greninja so I assume if vs Fox it's 55:45 in his favor, Falco would be 55:45 in our favor?

 

[MartinAW4]

I think we`re being too optimistic about the Sheik and Fox matchups. I just don`t see how characters with identical or better speed, projectiles that outrange and outspeed ours and overall safer moves with less start-up and end lag, some of which we can`t even punish on shield with anything other than maybe Jab can be considered an almost even 55-45 or 60-40 matchup.

ZSS and Falco are much more manageable though.
ZSS is tall and light, so we can combo her pretty well and she isn`t hard to kill. Water Shuriken outranges and cancels her paralyzing shots, so we don`t have to fear them and even if they hit, she can`t really kill us from it because we can SS hitstun cancel out of her Fsmash and Up B. When edgeguarding, I prefer using Bair instead of Hydro Pump because her height makes her an easy target for a fast fall Bair and she can avoid the Hydro Pump gimp with her tether recovery. So overall based on my limited For Glory experience against not so great ZSS, the matchup seemed pretty even or maybe slightly in our favor around 55:45.

Falco despite being easier to face than Fox and being considered bad in Smash 4 is not so easy to face as I`d expect. His lasers outrange our shurikens and he has a reflector, so using fully charged WS is risky. He might be slow, but in this case it`s not a big weakness when he can force us to approach and his ground game seems better than ours too. But he also gets comboed easily and he is one of the easiest characters for us to gimp in the game, so if we can get him below the stage where he can`t side B to the ledge, we can often take his stock. Again I can`t really say what the matchup is since I`ve only faced decent at best Falcos in Fory Glory, but it also felt like a 55:45 matchup in our favor just because of his bad recovery since otherwise the matchup seemed pretty even.

 

[David Galanos]

Sorry if I'm off topic but was Luigi already gone over? I get destroyed by his down throw combos and I just don't know what the heck to do

 

[Spirst]

Sorry if I'm off topic but was Luigi already gone over? I get destroyed by his down throw combos and I just don't know what the heck to do

Yeah, Luigi was covered already. Vs Luigi, I like to play more defensively because of his combo game being superior to our own. Offstage though, Greninja has a huge advantage and it can easily result in a stock because of Luigi's generally poor horizontal acceleration coupled with his meh recovery options. You'll want to play the opportunistic keepaway game with Luigi since if you try being very forceful with your pressure, it'll lead to shieldgrab>dthrow>Luigi stuff. Space with shurikens and if he tries using his fireballs, a fully charged water shuriken will go through those.

As for the optimism, I agree to an extent. Interestingly, Greninja seems to have trouble with the characters in his own archetype. Out of the speedsters, he requires more commitment and that hurts his neutral game against those characters since they generally have low risk options that we lack other than say, SH nair and jab. I do wonder what this means for his future.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja's main advantage over a lot of characters is his mobility which is perhaps overall the best in the game (Fox is actually faster than him in everything except air speed which is pretty bad while Greninja is consistently great at everything while also having more weight) so when a character like Sheik, Fox, Captain Falcon or Pikachu who can very easily keep up with his speed, that already makes things more difficult.

It's kind of an awkward position to be in considering speedy characters tend to dominate the scene, but Greninja doesn't do too bad against them. Sheik, Fox and Sonic are definitely tough match-ups for him but I don't feel like they're that bad somehow. I also still don't think we have a disadvantage against Falcon or Pikachu based on my own experiences against them (which admittedly are not very trustworthy).

Greninja feels quite solidly mid-tier though I'd say upper mid. He can definitely work but you have to put a lot of effort into going far with him solo due to his bad MUs against some of the upper tier characters, but he still has a solid performance against the more common characters. He's not a character I would recommend anyone to play with if they just want to win tournaments due to his issues and skill ceiling, but if you love the character or his playstyle, he's still a pretty solid choice I'd say.

 

[Gunla]

Week 5 begins with Peach, Palutena, Robin and Zelda.

 

[David Galanos]

Yeah, Luigi was covered already. Vs Luigi, I like to play more defensively because of his combo game being superior to our own. Offstage though, Greninja has a huge advantage and it can easily result in a stock because of Luigi's generally poor horizontal acceleration coupled with his meh recovery options. You'll want to play the opportunistic keepaway game with Luigi since if you try being very forceful with your pressure, it'll lead to shieldgrab>dthrow>Luigi stuff. Space with shurikens and if he tries using his fireballs, a fully charged water shuriken will go through those.

As for the optimism, I agree to an extent. Interestingly, Greninja seems to have trouble with the characters in his own archetype. Out of the speedsters, he requires more commitment and that hurts his neutral game against those characters since they generally have low risk options that we lack other than say, SH nair and jab. I do wonder what this means for his future.

Yeah I started off just playing my game which is a more aggressive Greninja but that definitely doesn't work cause shield grab> down throw> luigi stuff like you said. I'll try to be more patient and get him off stage cause I've stage spiked luigis more than any other character cause most luigis down b and then they fall vulnerable to stage spikes. Thanks for the tips tho and sorry for being behind

 

[FullMoon]

And off I go to ask people who main those ladies (and possible man) to give us some input.

 

[David Galanos]

I don't really have advice or anything I can say for all Greninjas but for Peach I feel like the match up can kinda be in our favor, from what I've seen. I have versed a few good peaches and the times where I struggled was when she was floating and doing ariels. I would try to shoot shurikens but the smartest thing would probably be just to stay away from that and just try to punish when there's an opening. But what I really wanted to say was where Greninja thrives. I think that Greninja wrecks Peach when she is above us. She doesn't really have good landing options and is pretty floaty so up smash and up air can juggle her a bit. Some peaches may try to side b to escape but then that's a free punish most of the time.

I wish I had clear thoughts on the other characters but all I can say is shurikens are tough against palutena and zelda cause of their reflectors

 

[Mocha]

It's honestly really hard to say this early on what the match-up is like for either character, because both Zelda and Greninja have so little usage overall, let alone crossing paths with one another. I do know of at least one person in my region who uses Greninja, so next time I run into him, I'll ask him for a bunch of friendlies.

That being said, I'd rather not make up imaginary numbers on what the MU is like, but I'm just going to say for now that it's Greninja's slight advantage. Again, I say 'slight' because there have not been enough matches of the two to assume it would either be a complete nightmare for Zelda, or go loleven.

The most common complaint I see about Greninja players when it comes to fighting Zelda is Nayru's Love and Farore's Wind. Both moves have enough cooldown to be punishable.

Nayru's Love: It's not so much the Water Shurikens being reflected that is a problem, but that it can disrupt Greninja's close up game. My advice is to fight Zelda in a mid/close range when it comes with dealing with that move, that way you can bait her to use it, then punish it's laggy cooldown. When it comes to shielding Nayru's Love, get in the habit of holding your shield just a tad longer, because the shards have a lingering hitbox. If you successfully shield this move, it's pretty much a free punish. A Nayru's Love habit Zelda is free damage for you. I'm personally guilty of this in panic moments, and a good player will punish me for it, regardless of what character they're using.

Farore's Wind: Also called 'Ferrari's Wind' and 'Elevator' among my Zelda sisters. This is common knowledge, but watch out for this move. I've seen it kill as early as the 20s (with rage and to the side of the stage). The time to most be worried is if they do this out of shield, and it sometimes seems possible to be able to DI/Vector away after the first part of the Up B, but I think it's also percentage dependent, and rage. If a Zelda is Up B'ing into you predictably, or even just trying to recover and hit you with it, be ready to shield instantly from the moment you see her disappear/make that Up B sound. Similar to Nayru's, shielding this move will net you a punish.

Regarding other moves, her Down tilt is pretty much her bread and butter move, so watch out for those, because she can follow-up in a number of ways from it from various percentages.

Early percentage, expect:

Dtilt -> Grab
Dtilt -> Dash attack
Dtilt -> Jab
then the less common Ftilt, Utilt,Fsmash, Nair as followups

Later percentage, expect:

Dtilt -> Up air
Dtilt -> Forward air
and she has other mix ups she can do too, as well as attempting to read your air dodge after popping you up from Down tilt

As far as Zelda approaching, she doesn't have reliable, 'safe' approaches, so in most cases, forcing her to approach you instead of it the other way around will likely make this MU easier for you. As Greninja, I personally like pivoting tilts to stay just out of her range, and to force her to do a move that I can punish.

Anyway, these are just a couple of things I wanted to point out, so I hope they helped, and didn't sound too obvious. I will be happy to elaborate more on this MU once I play more Greninjas, as well as vice versa, since I enjoy both characters.

 

[Fernosaur]

Hi ninja frogs I also play Zelda.

Another thing to note about Zelda is that, while a lot of her combos come from her down throw, you can 100% escape most of them if you DI away from her, which is, to her back.

It's not really that hard for her to get a grab, since D-tilt preceeds it most of the times. D-throw can be followed up by a lot of moves,even by finishers at high percent. U-air will kill you around 120-130 ish, prolly earlier if she's raging, and if she manages to bait an airdodge out of you you'll eat a b-air to the face, which can kill you at around 80% if you're not careful.

As I said, all of this can be avoided by simply DI'ing away from her during her down throws, so keep that in mind.

Also, if you're EVER caught charging up your big shuriken, you're going to eat a Farore's 2nd hit. It's alsoa bad idea to charge Smash attacks when at a distance (whatever the reason you'd do that).

In general, Zelda doesn't have much, if any, reliable tools, so I'm biased to say she's got a disadvantage on everyone, hahaha. As Mocha said, if you don't approach her and keep her at bay, she's gonna have a hellish time doing anything to you, so you shouldn't have much trouble. Just watch out for your laggier moves, cause when she does punish, Zelda can punish very hard.

 

[SBphiloz4]

Adding to the notes above, play super lame, the Zelda MU for Greninja is not all that challenging if you know what you're doing. Don't go full ham ****** on her, because you're no C. Falcon or Sheik, and she does have her ways against poor placements of aggressiveness.

In general, be patient. But whatever you do, do NOT throw fully charged Shurikens. It's an easy reflect, or a Farore's Wind punish for her. Throwing out the small fast ones does keep her approach at bay, and frustrate her.

Get her in the air, as Zelda really can't do that much when up there. Get some grabs and try to rack up damage in air to air combat. Don't know too much about Greninja, but Uair seems very good against her. But again, don't go too aggressive, or you'll get caught by Nayru's, or worse, Farore's.

Overcommitment to your edgeguard can actually cost you, as Zelda isn't as easy to edgeguard as some people think. Keep calm and let her grab the edge, or predictably get back onstage, and then punish accordingly. Hydro Pump from time to time can catch her off guard, but in those cases, she'll most likely try and recover low. Try to notice her get-up option patterns, and punish accordingly.

Dtilt, Nayru's and Farore's are moves you most have to watch out for, but playing safe and defensive limits the amount of times she'll successfully use these moves against you. Zelda's a heavily momentum based character, so limiting that momentum is key. If you're getting hit too much, backtrack and slow the pace of the game down. Don't fall into her gameplan and stick with yours to get most of your damage offstage and in the air.

Verdict: 6 : 4

 

[FullMoon]

Farore is a really scary move to deal with just because of how strong it is. I've played very few Zeldas, but I always get a bit nervous when going against her because of it. Nayru never seemed to be used much though those could just be bad Zeldas I went against.

Greninja definitely beats Zelda in the air, that's for sure, his aerials are a lot faster than Zelda's with the exception of F-Air and the only not very laggy aerial Zelda has is nair. On the ground Greninja can poke her with shurikens but charging is a really bad idea because of what was said above (Farore and Nayru) and so we force her to approach since Din Fire is kinda... Bad.

Zelda seems to require a lot of precision with her stronger moves in order to get those sweet early kills which might be tough to do on an opponent as mobile as Greninja, who while he doesn't have as much kill power, he has more consistent results with his moves and doesn't leave himself as open as she does. Though from what I've experienced playing with her Farore Wind seems to have very little lag if you teleport on the ground, still unless you're caught charging something it's pretty easy to shield Farore on reaction.

So we have more stage control than her, but if we make too many mistakes she can kill us a lot faster than we can. 60:40 seems about right, maybe a little more just because of how unreliable Zelda's moves can be since they're either going to score her a kill or get her killed instead.

 

[Mocha]

Farore is a really scary move to deal with

 

[FullMoon]

I guess Zelda and Ganondorf gave each other tips while spending time at the bottom of Brawl's tier list and now Zelda has turned Farore Wind into Warlock Punch.

 

[HeeroOfTheSkys]

Peach main here!!

Just saw FullMoons' post so I thought I stop by 2 offer some assistance.

Honestly I haven't fought any really gd Greninja players but I will try 2 help u guys the best I can.

 

[Silverfox117]

Hi ninja Frogs I come from the Robin thread in peace. I feel like you definitely have an advantage in this match up for the most part. So I'm going to talk about how Robin can beat Greninja, and you guys respond at how you think Greninja beats Robin up. Which I think is a lot of ways I feel like he can.

1.Robin kills easier than Greninja. His levin attacks can kill as early as 70 percent with a back air near edge or a smash attack. Her ariels are faster than Greninjas besides the bair and u-air. Greninja should be wary of Robin in air.
2.Arcfire and arc thunder combos do a lot of damage and can kill at kind of mid percentages with levin u-air
3.Arc fire creates a lot of space for Robin and punish landing easily.
4.Greninja is susceptible to Thoron or strong spells when he is charging shuriken.
5. Both grabs sucks tbh, but Robin has a kill throw.
6.Robin's nair is really good at spacing Greninja.
Damn thinking about it. There is not a lot of things going well for Robin in this match up.

 

[FullMoon]

Well, as for Greninja's side...

1 - Greninja is a lot faster than Robin and so he can very easy close in on them, which is bad for Robin since they really need to play the keep away game.

2- Greninja, with some good prediction, can Shadow Sneak past Arcfire and hit Robin while they're vulnerable and considering how strong the back kick is it can easily result in a kill at higher percentages.

3 - I believe Greninja can crouch to avoid Thoron and the other Thunder spells.

4 - Greninja's Up-Throw can also kill.

5 - Robin is really slow and shurikens are much faster than his spells outside of I think Elthunder, but I'm not sure which one has more range. So Greninja can play the camping game about as well as Robin.

6 - After getting above Greninja, Robin can really struggle to get back onto the ground due to being juggled by up-air or b-air, as well as Greninja being highly mobile and being able to punish their landing better than they can.

7 - Elwind can be gimped quite easily with b-air, though there's the risk of being spiked by the air blades. Robin also doesn't have many options offstage I think.

So overall Robin is kinda similar to Zelda in that they can kill us quickly and also more reliably than her, but in exchange for that they're a lot slower. Greninja's speed allows him to punish Arcfire either by just going under it by dashing if he's close enough or jumping over it, as well as Shadow Sneak being able to bypass it entirely. Assuming Greninja can indeed crouch to avoid Thunder, then it becomes pretty much a non-issue for the most part and if Greninja is close enough it can even result in a d-tilt to initiate a combo.

Robin can definitely catch us offguard, but I think Greninja's sheer mobility can really overwhelm them and give us a lot of stage control. We can't afford to make many mistakes in this MU due to how much Robin's Levin Smashes hurt, but overall Greninja just seems to really dominate the neutral game in this MU since Robin's main projectile against him doesn't have much range to it and eventually will run out if they get too spammy with it, which just adds insult to injury.

I think this MU might be about 65:35 in our favor just because of how easily Greninja can overwhelm Robin with his speed.

 

[HeeroOfTheSkys]

Ok so I have been thinking about the Peach vs Greninja MU today and honestly I think it is in Greninja's favor not 2 sure on the numbers.

IMO any character that is fast and has fast aerial that can out range Peach will give a her a hard time. Floating Dair is still possible but can be shutdown by Greninja Usmash i think (haven't tested it)

The thing Greninja players will have 2 worry about the most is Peach's turnip game. Most gd Peach players will have a gd knowledge of spacing which when coupled with the turnip could be a problem for Greninja players. Greninja's water shuriken is a gd counter 2 turnips but the problem is that Greninja has 2 be stationary whilst he uses it whilst Peach can move freely with the turnip, jumping shurikens can help a lot in this situation especially if u vary the height and charge of the release. If ur really having trouble with Peach (which u shouldnt really) I suggest that u use the time when Peach doesnt have a turnip in hand 2 capitalize.

 

[Zediwonder]

This is fortunate, I'm a Palutena player and my friend mains Greninja so I know this match up pretty good.

-Biggest most irritating thing that comes to mind, if a Palutena counters Greninja's usmash even slightly above him on the first hit the second hit will ruin Palutena's day, it's happened to me a few times but this is something most players will learn to stop doing after it happens once but it can easily catch someone off guard.

-With default Palutena you really gotta watch out how you use your shurikan, her reflect is really good and stays out longer than any other reflector, it's probably not a good idea to fully charge shurikans against her, however if Palutena is off the ledge bait out a relfect with a fully charged shurikan and the end lag of reflect will generally not leave enough time to recover, though this is quite a dangerous thing to bait out.

- Palutena's jab1 has great range and can follow up into grabs, it's a hard move to get by as it can destroy a lot of projectiles.

- Whiffed shadow sneaks are really dangerous against Palutena, her smashes are incredibly powerful and can probably KO at 80ish% they have massive end lag as well so it's really easy to punish Palutena after using a smash attack.

- Palutena has bad defense below her, her dair comes out really slow and has a tiny hitbox and her bair, fair and uair don't have hitboxes below her at all

- Palutena's bair and dash attack both have invincibility frames, dash attack has massive end lag and blocking it doesn't push you far so you can punish it easily, dodging it works just as well, her bair is harder to deal with as it comes out really quick and doesn't have a large amount of end lag and a lot of Palutena's will try to approach with sh bairs because it's safer than fairs, try and punish her when she lands between attacks.

- Her fair is really good and has great range, it doesn't combo into itself like Ness' but you can get caught up in it trying to recover, it's very similar to Zelda's without the sweet spot on the hitbox.

I asked my friend how he dealt with me since I don't really know how I deal with myself but he just said move fast enough that they can't get a read on you, that's a bit vague but he tends to do fake out shadow sneaks by jumping to make me think he's not using it and it works for him surprisingly effectively. Not sure how helpful this is but I'll try and wring out some proper information from my friend.

 

[ddonaldo]

Another advantage you have against palutena is greninja "small" model meaning that spacing against you "aerially" generally works against us. Also we cannot neutral b you without massive risk since due to greninja's stature if you dash in you will literally bypass all 3 shots

 

[Dark.Pch]

I have played this match up a lot. And I will say that I feel its an even fight. I'll gibe a breakdown to it later. Just posting to let you guys know I am aware of this thread and will help you guys out on this info.

 

[BlinkIV]

I'll tag my homeboy @ AeroLink_the_SoulMaster for Palutena vs Greninja from his views. Him and I play almost ALL the time.

I'll add my own thoughts/views after I get off work. I'm looking forward to it. I got nothin' for Peach/Robin/Zelda though, sadly. Also Mocha, you still in TX or did you move?

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

60-40 Greninja's favor.

 

[Blueman12]

Hi guys, Robin guy here.

Yeah Greninja people, you guys have the edge on us. The fact that you guys rush us down so well hampers our zoning game for sure, your bair is really good, and the quick water shuriken is a pretty reliable way to interrupt our thunder charge. One of the first things I do against a Greninja as a match starts is lay down an arcfire to see how the opponent reacts to that so I can plan accordingly, either by charging up a thunder or by reacting to whatever assault Greninja decides to commit to. This is the kind of playstyle we need to adapt against rushdown characters like Greninja and Sheik, and lemme tell you, it isnt foolproof. Greninja is also a rare breed of character that isn't vulnerable IN ANY WAY to our OOS Levin Sword aerials. Seriously since Greninja ducks so low and has a hunched idle pose means we can't OOS BSair or SUair on reaction. Greninja's speed also makes janky Nosferatu reads harder to land.

On the plus (down?) side, we can kill faster with Levin available meaning we need fewer reads to win, and if we zone smart rather than zone aggressive we can keep you out, at least for a little while. We have our own quick moves, such as nair and bair, and if you guys are above us in the air, we can challenge that rather efficiently I find since your dair requires a huge commitment and your fair has that teensy bit of startup. But still an overall annoying matchup. 6:4 Greninja.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I use to think that this match up was terrible. But After playing NinjaLinks Ribbits (Greninja), and then playing a few others, I come to realize its seriously not a bad match up. Cause there was one thing I was not doing that I do now. Fighting and moving with a turnip in my hand. It's hard to space and go in on greninja due to his speed and if you mess up with Peach just once you just get juggled and take alot of damage coming back. That's is how I just got hit so much against him. I need a method to just him down and stop him from just mashing buttons out of shield. So not too long ago I came up with a play style to deal with this and so far it's been doing wonders.

If Peach is in the air, you can obviously shut her down with your air moves or anti air upsmashes. She really can not approach too much in the air due to this. Really at a distance where you see it and have enough time to counter attack or evade/block. So being in the air to get in on greninja to get in is a not really happen. Ribbits aint having it

On the ground he has the advantage form a distance. Usually players will shoot water shurikens to force her in the air, then go in and hit her out of it. And if you try to approach on the ground of get a turnip, you just take damage. Or slow her down and then he goes in to cover her blind spot.

** her blind spot is standing out of her nair/jab range. Here Peach cant do anything. If I try to attack, I will just get hit with w/e move you throw out. You want to be here ALOT. Its a pain to deal with good pressure here. I have nothing fast AND with range to attack you with. The way I deal with this is me being seriously patient and looing for the right time (due to me adapting to how the player is playin) and either counter attack or get away. So make this one your goals in the match.

So air and ground covered. This is where Peach players usually choke and Ribbits gets away with murder. They can't figure out how to approach him and get shut down in the air or ground. Even recovering. So going my basic human mentality. People would think this match up is bad and not much Peach can do. I for one don't like to think of things like that. So I tried many things to overcome these problems. And I cam up with answers.

** This next section I will be talking abut high level Peach. out the average style of Peach you all might be use too so you can be aware of what you can and can NOT get away with.

The way Peach gets in on Ribbits is floating with a turnip towards him if he is shooting his projectile. Peach will need to get to a certain distance where you can not safely shoot anymore or it is a free punish. At a certain distance, Peach has to land. The reason for this is as I explained before. You can easily snuff me out the air and put me in a nasty situation where I can take a lot of damage just trying to touch the floor. I can't just go in from the air swinging at you. Now when I am at this distance:

- I no longer have to be fear of air assaults. If he short hops rising air attacks, they will all miss Peach. He has to do falling air attacks. If I am close enough I can punish his landing on these moves. Or force a defensive action.

- I now can freely attack him from a safe distance due to my turnip. He can't

-Grounded spaced Fairs can anti air his short hop air attacks (rising). And if it does not hit, I have a turnip as insurance for approaches.

- My Dtilt has more range then your Ftilt. So throwing out moves at this range (bare handed) can lead to you eating Dtilt and eating 50+ worth of damage from 0. And at higher % I can't get a solid kill from with an up-B

So his blind spot vs me is being out of his ftilt range. A distance Peach will want to maintain aloft possible. But to be safe against a fast character with range and speed, Peach needs to have a solid Nuetral game. Here is a break down on how it works and how it looks like against real opponents.

First lets look at something called "QFR" which stands for "Quick Float Release." I gave the name. Peach was able to do this kind of thing in brawl. And people have called it "wasping" or "Dash floating". In these game I just wanted to keep it simple when I discovered they way Peach can move in this game when I first touched her in the wii u. It's much better in this game then in brawl and makes Peach have the best movement option in the game.

Now that you guys understand this, lets look at her neutral game as a whole with "QFR"

One thing Peach has over you is many ways to approach. Your approaches are kinda meh. And not really that safe. It's not really that hard to guess how you would come at me and be ready to counter, bait, punish. And Peach has good ways to deal with it. So be really careful approaching. Here are ways Peach can approach and what she can get off on it.

Peach is really good at keeping you of stage with turnip snipes and Zdrops. Messing up your recovery and clapping you out of it with air attacks. Don't be to hasty to try to get back on with shadow sneak. A turnip toss is Peach needs to force you to burn a jump or up-b. If she is waiting for that and you try to panic to up-b, she can react to it and that is nearly a free kill.

So here is a break down from both characters:

GrenNinja:
- Get good damage when you have me in the air and make it hard to recover.
- Good edgeguarding
- Can force me to Go in the air or stay on the ground
- Better at forcing an approach
- Force me to fight mostly grounded
- One grab can put me in a nasty situation.
- Covers Blind spot well.
- Can easily slow me down and move in.
- Can't really get in safely to get anything started without a turnip.
- Good at punishing landings

Peach:
- Peach movement option is better (not talking about speed)
- Versatile approaches
- Can safely close the gap from both air and ground.
- Solid kill set up at high % from a dtilt.
- Good anti air on his air approaches via grounded fair.
- Makes it hard to approach on the ground with the use of turnips and QFR.
- Good edguarding.
- Good at covering landing options via grounded uairs and tunrips (becomes better for Peach with platforms and adding uptilts to the mix)
- Good at punishing landings
- Great shield pressure.

Your goal here is to get close to me and stay on my blind spot alot. I advise not to sit back TOO much. For I can get in your blind spot. Use your projectile to slow me down and move it. Space a few air attack to tell me to stay grounded (lol). This would keep me on the ground more and smart use of your projectile can help force some defensive action, giving you the option to start hell on her. Or force her to go in the air and cover that option with your air attacks. I don't win air battles with him much. It's not worth me having those. keep her in the air as much as you can. And punish her landings. Peach can not come down swinging. hella unsafe. When you see this go out there and hit her for mashing dairs/fairs. Her best method is to recover low. But you can still screw that over with good use of up-B.

Respect her shield pressure. She has some nasty frame traps and you will wish you was more patient when you try to mash an attack out or grab. Just be patient and look for the times she can not really attack for you to that your offense of break free.

** She is one of the better characters in this game that can punish rolls. which is something I look for ALOT in players. So be careful against a smart player. If they don't punish you for it, then you can use this as a GTFO move.

That's about it. From all of this. I say this is even fight. Hope this helped out. Any questions about Peach you can ask me. if not, guess I'm done here.

 

[Raziek]

Hi. I do all the Robin things.

I have almost no experience against Greninja. If someone would like to schedule a session with me (perhaps later today?) I can offer my full thoughts on the match-up.

 

[Coffee™]

peach stuff

Legit stuff here. Do you and NL have ny videos for reference? I've generally felt like Peach is a pushover for a number of the reasons you've mentioned, but the latter part of your post is interesting as not many people are playing with Peach on that level and I could see how it could sway certain situations more in Peach's favor.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Nah. It can happen though if I had to his house and we stream our training session. I have to set a day for that though. I would go today if he is free but I am getting my net installed right now and ill be streaming smash 4 all day. Maybe later I could do wifi session wifi him on the match up and stream it.

 

[Mocha]

I'll tag my homeboy @ AeroLink_the_SoulMaster for Palutena vs Greninja from his views. Him and I play almost ALL the time.

I'll add my own thoughts/views after I get off work. I'm looking forward to it. I got nothin' for Peach/Robin/Zelda though, sadly. Also Mocha, you still in TX or did you move?

I'm still in TX. Do I know you? xD

@ Dark.Pch Thanks for posting your MU thoughts on both threads that I partake in. And I agree with Coffee... you should totally have some friendlies with NL when you both get the chance.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Wha? you play the Ribbits too?

 

[Mocha]

Wha? you play the Ribbits too?

I'm trying to pick him up/co-main him, but it's been a challenging experience so far.

Ribbits? Cute

 

[FullMoon]

Hi. I do all the Robin things.

I have almost no experience against Greninja. If someone would like to schedule a session with me (perhaps later today?) I can offer my full thoughts on the match-up.

I could potentially play some matches with you, though I don't think I would be able to provide the best learning experience.

You know, I can totally see Peach affectionately refer to Greninja as Ribbit now, much to the ninja's embarrassment =P

 

[Coffee™]

Nah. It can happen though if I had to his house and we stream our training session. I have to set a day for that though. I would go today if he is free but I am getting my net installed right now and ill be streaming smash 4 all day. Maybe later I could do wifi session wifi him on the match up and stream it.

Sounds good. Even if I miss the stream I'd definitely watch a saved broadcast.

Wha? you play the Ribbits too?

Using this tag from now on xD

 

[Marilink]

"The Ribbits." That is genius.

I wish I could contribute more to this thread, but I simply just don't have enough experience (or skill) to really offer any solid input. I sincerely thank you all for your thoughts, though.

 

[BlinkIV]

I'm still in TX. Do I know you? xD

@ Dark.Pch Thanks for posting your MU thoughts on both threads that I partake in. And I agree with Coffee... you should totally have some friendlies with NL when you both get the chance.

Old tag was Xeven (SaiXeven). I hang with Disqo/Denti/Aerolink etc since Brawl days. I think we played at a Revolution tournament, post-tourney friendlies? I was the falco player back then. It was at that gas station lol

 

[Mocha]

Old tag was Xeven (SaiXeven). I hang with Disqo/Denti/Aerolink etc since Brawl days. I think we played at a Revolution tournament, post-tourney friendlies? I was the falco player back then. It was at that gas station lol

Ohhh I remember that gas station and tourney, but I don't remember all the friendlies I did. I was probably getting wrecked, heh but yeah, looking forward to playing you all again.

 

[KERO]

So, I'm not very experienced in any of these MUs unfortunately, but I have a question regarding Peach. I've noted that the Hydro Pump bubble can have a big affect on her floating. Could that in any way be applicable to the MU?

 

[Coffee™]

So, I'm not very experienced in any of these MUs unfortunately, but I have a question regarding Peach. I've noted that the Hydro Pump bubble can have a big affect on her floating. Could that in any way be applicable to the MU?

Hydro Pump is honestly an amazing spacing tool and a good disruptor as well. The fact that it can reset both characters to neutral while dealing 2-4% each time is really really good. As for applications vs Peach I'd imagine using it would be nice mixup for a her float options, if she's approaching from outside of your Ftilt range. Otherwise you generally have better options.