Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[FullMoon]

Honestly I've never tried using Hydro Pump on-stage, I never really understood the applications for it, somebody care to enlighten me?

 

[David Galanos]

Honestly I've never tried using Hydro Pump on-stage, I never really understood the applications for it, somebody care to enlighten me?

Well the main use for hydro pump is off stage gimps, which was nerfed but is still great imo. You just either stay on stage and do an up b and immediately direction it, or jump off stage and aim to to make them fall. It works great with characters like little Mac, Ike, but it's not good against sheik and stuff

 

[David Galanos]

Honestly I've never tried using Hydro Pump on-stage, I never really understood the applications for it, somebody care to enlighten me?

Well the main use for hydro pump is off stage gimps, which was nerfed but is still great imo. You just either stay on stage and do an up b and immediately direction it, or jump off stage and aim to to make them fall. It works great with characters like little Mac, Ike, but it's not good against sheik and stuff

Well the main use for hydro pump is off stage gimps, which was nerfed but is still great imo. You just either stay on stage and do an up b and immediately direction it, or jump off stage and aim to to make them fall. It works great with characters like little Mac, Ike, but it's not good against sheik and stuff

Oh crap I didn't see you said on stage lol, my bad

 

[Coffee™]

Honestly I've never tried using Hydro Pump on-stage, I never really understood the applications for it, somebody care to enlighten me?

* Reset to neutral while dealing damage to opponent
* Anti air move that can lead to followups as it suspends opponents in the air after hitting them
* Can be used to prevent followups as well as space your approaches.

Probably has a lot more uses too. The move is too good to solely focus on it's offstage capabilities.

 

[Spirst]

I've recently got into the habit of using it on stage and yeah, it's something to keep in your arsenal. Resetting to neutral is a big one if you're dealing with a good amount of pressure. It can also be used to try and keep people on the edges of the stage if you can sweep them off with it. I find it functions well as a stage control option that simultaneously gets in the head of your opponent.

 

[Coffee™]

I've recently got into the habit of using it on stage and yeah, it's something to keep in your arsenal. Resetting to neutral is a big one if you're dealing with a good amount of pressure. It can also be used to try and keep people on the edges of the stage if you can sweep them off with it. I find it functions well as a stage control option that simultaneously gets in the head of your opponent.

Yeah that's another one. The fact that it can push people back off the stage from a getup is really nice as it allows for easy trumping / dsmash setups.

On another note. Does Shadow Sneak's front kick hit under the ledge? I know I've hit a few people recovering that way but I've never looked too much into it. Also wondering this about his Exploding attack.

 

[Spirst]

Yeah that's another one. The fact that it can push people back off the stage from a getup is really nice as it allows for easy trumping / dsmash setups.

On another note. Does Shadow Sneak's front kick hit under the ledge? I know I've hit a few people recovering that way but I've never looked too much into it. Also wondering this about his Exploding attack.

No, I don't think the front kick hits below the ledge unless they have a hurtbox sticking out like DK's ledge grab. I've been unable to hit people recovering directly below and on the ledge unless part of their body poked out like DK's head. Exploding attack can though.

 

[Coffee™]

No, I don't think the front kick hits below the ledge unless they have a hurtbox sticking out like DK's ledge grab. I've been able to hit people recovering directly below and on the ledge unless part of their body poked out like DK's head. Exploding attack can though.

Gotcha. As far as Exploding attack goes, I think Hpump to EA might be a decent kill setup as the range on it should cover most ledge options outside of jump. Need to test it out.

More on topic though. Got to play a decent Robin last night in a few friendlies at our weekly and I think it's a pretty good one for Greninja. Robin can't approach well, he gets juggled fairly easy and greninja's low profile lends to him avoiding a lot of Robin's moves and followups. As long as you take note of Arcfire and the troubles his Up B can cause Greninja's recovery you should be fine.

 

[Gunla]

Just as a note, I've added a few MUs to the chart from looking at discussion and where there's a general sense of agreement. Likely once the 13th Week is done, we may take a week to look at the general schedule, see what MUs need to be reviewed, what MUs have some really good consensus and can be added, etc.

• Little Mac
• Mega Man
• Mii Brawler
• Sheik
• Toon Link
• Zelda

Also, just a reminder that on Monday, we'll start Villager, Duck Hunt, Bowser Jr. and R.O.B.

 

[Marilink]

So I played a Robin (Coast) at the U of M Monthly yesterday, and I'm convinced that Greninja has the edge in this matchup. We can easily work around Arcfire, and if we're smart about dodging Levin Sword aerials then we don't have a whole to worry about. Obviously you have to play smart around his Thunder variations, especially Arcthunder and Thoron, but SH Nair approaches and back-air gimps are incredibly strong. He seems to have a hard time hitting us.

60 : 40 Greninja.

This is also an interesting thing, though I may have just gotten lucky: Robin went for Arcfire and I hit him with a Shuriken to disrupt. He dropped the book, and I went and grabbed the book with a Bair. He didn't even notice, and when we reset to neutral he started charging Thunder and I smash-threw the book for a KO. Totally caught him off guard, since that's way faster than Shuriken could go. It was a great way to take a stock, let me tell you.

EDIT: The set got recorded, here's the Gfy!

 

[Spirst]

Alright, Liberation is out for a bit so I'm advancing the discussion.

This week, week 6, we'll be covering the characters that adore the B button, Duck Hunt/Bowser Jr/Villager/ROB. Though these characters aren't seen constantly like Diddy and Sheik are, they are nevertheless important MUs to know in general seeing as how each character should have a gameplan when going against other characters who have an inclination towards zoning. I know ROB in particular can prove frustrating for Greninja.

Anddddd, commence.

 

[Marilink]

I could write up some info about ROB and Bowser Jr., but I'm crunched on time. I'll just drop a modified version of the Villager info that I just posted in the Social thread:

A weak Shuriken will blow up Lloid rocket, but not when Villy is riding it. Jumping over Lloid is usually preferable to shielding, as it puts us in a better position (just watch out for Utilt and Dtilt), but be sure to mix it up. Lloid comes out very fast, though, and I often get hit by Lloid RIGHT upon its startup, if I am going for a SH approach. Villager will take this trade, and he can usually even get a grab out of it if you let this happen to you.

Never let Villager get on a platform above you, because he will bowling ball your face. If he goes for a bowling ball edge guard, you can shadow sneak behind him--but MAKE SURE you get behind him. If you misjudge and get caught by the ledge, you are likely to get hit. You can also Sub on the bowling ball if you're feeling lucky.

If he plants a tree, camp til it's gone (but make sure you know when he pockets your Shurikens) and wait for him to come to you--and watch out for the axe. If you want to bait the Tree drop for a Substitute, go for it. They will chop the tree as soon as they think you're dumb enough to run into it.

Bairs off the ledge can do a good job of edge guardng him--they won't kill, but you can cycle 3 or 4 bairs and ledge re-grabs for good damage.

If Villager runs off the ledge, he is likely trying to Double Jump Slingshot you. Shield it or be ready to substitute off of it.

Usmash beats his Down Air, but it's close. If you don't sweetspot it, you'll get turnips in the face. Uair does NOT beat his Dair, and his Dair comes out very quickly, so your Uair followups should be conservative.

I honestly don't know what I would say about the matchup. It feels fairly even and depends heavily on who gets the proper read.

 

[Sonnet]

Hey, I heard you guys needed some help on the Bowjow MU, so I stopped by to give my two cents.

Honestly, I don't have much experience against Greninja, but I CAN say that Junior really doesn't rely on the B button as much as you would think- that's actually kind of a misconception, I would say. Sure, I look to get a mechakoopa down whenever possible, and combos out of the kart are great, but the main aspect of my game comes from spacing, aerials, and tilts. Shofu put it best when he described my game as "annoying," mainly because my first goal is to not let you hit me, and to punish you if one of your approaches is even slightly off.

I'd like to go more in depth, but I think this will do it justice.

It's certainly not perfect, but it showcases what I'm trying to accomplish as a Bowser Jr player.

 

[FullMoon]

@ Spirst Considering you also play Duck Hunt, I figure you would be able to speak about this MU better than anyone else?

As for the Villager MU... The slingshot is annoying to deal with, but Villager can't really outcamp us because their range is not as great as our shurikens and the side-b gets destroyed by them as well. Greninja has a much easier time when he actually manages to get in Villager's face because SHFF Nair -> Jab is very good on shield for Villager because we can hit him out of his grab and so we are significantly safer when hitting his shield. From what I've seen Villager can't really combo us very much while we certainly can combo him into oblivion

His d-air is a problem since it can block our u-airs, but being careful with it actually allows us to bait them and punish Villager for it, be it by using a Substitute instead of u-air or any other methods. We can't use fully charged Water Shuriken because of Pocket, but it's not too much of a deal. Timber is scary, yes, but it's also very easy to see coming and I believe we can even bait it to get a Substitute hit in.

Overall I think Villager tends to leave himself very open for Greninja to strike, he can certainly keep us on edge with his slingshot and d-air, but overall once we do get in his face we tend to get quite the edge over him.

I particularly never had much of a struggle against Villager once I got the hang of his tools and I think the MU is 60:40 on our favor.

 

[BlinkIV]

To add to R.O.B and BJ. I personally don't have much trouble against R.O.B, but I do feel BJ gives us trouble. Somewhat long post incoming.

For ROB: When ROB doesn't have Gyro or fully charged laser, he gets camped HARD by us. We can always have the advantage by playing passive against them. Gyro also isn't a huge problem for us since we can just duck under it. Or we can grab it with DA and just toss it in the air and put some pressure on ROB. ROB also doesn't have the strongest approach options so we can abuse retreating SH Fairs and be good. The best ROB can do is SH Nair into D-Tilt > Grab/F-Smash/D-smash but we can beat Nair with WS/Fair/Nair. Offstage we can try to gimp with Hydro Pump but we can't gimp him AS easily due to having a long lasting Up-B.

I prefer to mixup grabs against ROB as well. Mainly doing D-Throw and U-throw. I don't commit to going for up-airs against ROB either that much. If he air dodges and we commit, we can get punished with a N-air/sometimes U-air. So mixing throws up helps REALLY well in this MU. 60:40 Greninja imo.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Boozer Jr:
As far as BJ goes..I feel we don't win this MU. BJ completely shuts us out in neutral. I don't feel we can ever approach and be safe against him. Mecha Koopas really help in keeping us out. Be careful not to be lured into approaching, ever. BJ can fake out and use the initial pushback from side-B to still get in on us. Also watch out for side-b at higher %'s as well...BJ can get the Side-B hit and then go into Up-B and kill us. It will combo. Oracle and I call it the Captain Jack.

So in our defense. We need to play defensive, super defensive. My main damage has come from landing throws and keeping BJ in the air. Retreating SH Fairs + SH nairs don't seem to work as well on BJ compared to other characters. WS does work sometimes. Sadly it doesn't destroy Mecha Poopa, it will only slow it down for a brief moment. I'm not sure what else to add on this MU, it's definitely a tough one. Probably 60:40 BJ, but might end up being 70:30 BJ's favor.

@Oracle Can add in some more info from BJ's view.

 

[Antonykun]

Heyo got called here by @ FullMoon to see what I can say about greninja vs Villager.
Fortunately I play a lot against a Greninja player so I have some ideas on what the MU looks like.
Greninja just cannot play keep away with Villager at long range. Shuriken is very easy to dodge and a long distance Villager on the other hand can just harass with slingshots and Lloyds and its rather difficult to approach Villager at times because shielded and jumped nairs makes everything but the most perfectly spaced nairs unsafe. As with most characters the key to beating Villager is with uning your mid ranged attacks.

 

[FullMoon]

IIRC charged (but not fully) shurikens CAN take out Mecha Koopas and I believe it can stop Jr's Side-B as well. Don't quote me on that though, I don't have much experience against him.

 

[BlinkIV]

IIRC charged (but not fully) shurikens CAN take out Mecha Koopas and I believe it can stop Jr's Side-B as well. Don't quote me on that though, I don't have much experience against him.

It might be a certain level. I've tried a few kinds of shurikens and none worked. Maybe l1 would do it? I've tried l5 shurikens and they just do nothing.

 

[Darklink401]

To give my two cents on the villager matchup.

It's VERY manageable for Greninja if he avoids using fully charged Water Shuriken and other fancy tricks. He just has to get in there, get the job done, and not let Villager harass him from long range.

Villager' actual mobility is not that fast, so Greninja can definitely overwhelm him there.

;P

 

[Spirst]

@ Spirst Considering you also play Duck Hunt, I figure you would be able to speak about this MU better than anyone else?

Yessir, I intended to.

Duck Hunt vs Greninja is a very positional game. Greninja will generally not be able to outcamp Duck Hunt due to the fact that gunmen can absorb the shuriken (5% HP) unless he holds the charge for a little bit. Meanwhile, Duck Hunt can use the gunmen, trick shot, and clay pigeon for projectile pressure. This is a game where Greninja will want to avoid letting DH build up any momentum and assuming control of the stage. Duck Hunt's disjointed aerials will poke through Greninja's (DH has a nice disjointed fair) should Greninja try to force his way in with usual running SH nairs. On the positive side, Greninja's small hurtbox coupled with his crouch will be able to duck under many clay pigeons at mid range. With clay pigeon being one of DH's best ways to cancel momentum from the other player, this is an interesting advantage. On the subject of clay pigeons, Greninja's must learn to powershield these as it is vital to the MU. DH can get a sweetspotted fair off a clay pigeon shot for an easy 18% and reverse clay pigeons from being followed while often get the opponent if their reaction time isn't on point and they don't powershield. Given Greninja's quick ability, he has less room for error doing so.

For DH's specials, Greninja's transcendent priority fully charged water shuriken will go through all of them and hit DH if he is behind them. This is actually a really great tool to have since it presents the threat of being able to pierce DH's projectiles if well-spaced. Generally, DH's projectiles will eat through any other projectile (even a clay pigeon eats charge shot) so having a piercing projectile on a character with quick mobility means Greninja is near impossible to keep out completely. Greninja will also be killing at earlier percents due to having more reliable KOs. DH, if you don't know, has literally broken smashes that don't always connect and worsen in rage. He's a vertical killer for the most part similar to Greninja and a number of his kills will come from running usmash, uair, and trick shot. Greninja, however, has that sweetspot uair he can use to trap DHs landings due to DH having a sort of blindspot directly beneath him.

Offstage, I'd also give this one to Greninja since DH has a recovery with no hitboxes (unless duck jump snag is used but then it has less distance) that's slow, can't be cancelled, and is fairly easy to predict. This makes bair a potent tool against a Duck Hunt trying to recover. Something that some DHs do is, when launched offstage, they'll buffer a trick shot with their double jump and then maintain the B button mashing to keep the can at level with the recovering dog. This gives the dog a sort of hitbox to aid his recovery though I do believe he's still susceptible to bairs and now, even a substitute.

Overall, I feel like DH is superior at racking up percents and has a better grab game (fthrow>fair/rar bair/clay pigeon) while Greninja is superior at landing the finishing blows and having offstage presence. Unlike similar character archetypes such as Villager, DH has a good grab game that comes out faster than Greninja's standing grab so shield pressure isn't as good an option. Greninja, in my opinion, should be opportunistic here and whittle DH down and when the opportunity presents itself, do as much as you can before resetting to neutral.
I'm not great with ratios but I'd say this probably 55:45 for frog:dog. Pre-patch Greninja had a bigger advantage, I'd say. Now, it's closer to even. Greninja isn't Sheik and therefore will need to invest more commitment into his hits. This means that sealing the deal can be quite tricky.

 

[WispBae]

Called from the doggy forums for advice on the MU.

I've honestly haven't found Greninja to be overwhelming, which is odd since Doggy relies on spacing and Greninja is pretty fast. The main issues the Ninja will have in this MU...

• Greninja's air speed. His pretty slowly horizontal approach makes it pretty easy to see attacks coming, and Doggy's disjointed Fair comes out faster than Ninja's Fair. Not to mention a can in mid air closes any options for air approaches, with Nair being unsafe and Fair being laggy on landing.
• Water Shuriken start up lag: It's very easy to see coming (even an uncharged one) and doggy is able to jump over it and punish very easy. From a distance, it's a great tool to deal with cans, though a disabled can would cause doggy to use his next projectile option, (probably clay for my choice as Greninja is way faster on the ground), making it hard to approach.
• Predictable recovery: Not many ways for Ninjas to mix up recovery options (similar to doggy), leading to free damage in most cases or an opportunity for doggy to set up more traps.

Your best bet against a capable doggy is to stay under him. Approach from the ground safely (Ninja's roll is so far and fast, as well as having Shadow Sneak) and keep doggy above you. It's hard to deal with being juggled, since doggy's best option for getting down in Nair (which lasts 157024380394 frames) or fading back into a recovery with no hit box, which is a free punish. Ninja's up smash comes in handy too, being disjointed and able to fling away cans very easy. The MU is probably in Doggy's favor at neutral, but swings way into Greninja's when a string starts. Just avoid being predictable, or that can will hurt alot.

Villager is my secondary, though I haven't enough experience to handle that MU. =/ I would think it to be very similar to doggy, just easier to approach from the ground since the Ninja duck so low.

Hope this helps!

 

[Coffee™]

Boozer Jr:As far as BJ goes..I feel we don't win this MU. BJ completely shuts us out in neutral. I don't feel we can ever approach and be safe against him. Mecha Koopas really help in keeping us out. Be careful not to be lured into approaching, ever. BJ can fake out and use the initial pushback from side-B to still get in on us. Also watch out for side-b at higher %'s as well...BJ can get the Side-B hit and then go into Up-B and kill us. It will combo. Oracle and I call it the Captain Jack.

So in our defense. We need to play defensive, super defensive. My main damage has come from landing throws and keeping BJ in the air. Retreating SH Fairs + SH nairs don't seem to work as well on BJ compared to other characters. WS does work sometimes. Sadly it doesn't destroy Mecha Poopa, it will only slow it down for a brief moment. I'm not sure what else to add on this MU, it's definitely a tough one. Probably 60:40 BJ, but might end up being 70:30 BJ's favor.

@Oracle Can add in some more info from BJ's view.

I'd assume the opposite actually but my BJ experience is limited. (in game anyway xD) As far as Mecha Koopas go I don't have much problem avoiding them or just straight up using them agains BJ. I think the Koopas have 7% health? I know semi charged Shurikens can beat them but i wouldn't rely on that all too much as the lag from WS can be punished via his side B if it hits a Koopa and he's close enough.

Also as far as Side B goes...that move is super punishable. Unless BJ gets considerable distance or uses his double jump after hitting Greninja's shield he can get dash grabbed. Also if he hits Greninja's Shield you can normally jump and Nair immediately out of shield to hit him if he jumps expecting to followup. Uair works as well sometimes but I prefer the wider hitbox of Nair. WS also generally disrupts kart approaches so it's not like he can spam them.

Greninja's Bair is also a huge pita for BJ's recovery. It's easy to stage spike him should he have to use Up B and if he's forced to recover high Bair or Hydro Pump are relatively easyt moves to use to get him off stage before he lands.

Also, can greninja escape any of his Kart followups with Side B? That could be pretty useful.

 

[BlinkIV]

I'd assume the opposite actually but my BJ experience is limited. (in game anyway xD) As far as Mecha Koopas go I don't have much problem avoiding them or just straight up using them agains BJ. I think the Koopas have 7% health? I know semi charged Shurikens can beat them but i wouldn't rely on that all too much as the lag from WS can be punished via his side B if it hits a Koopa and he's close enough.

Also as far as Side B goes...that move is super punishable. Unless BJ gets considerable distance or uses his double jump after hitting Greninja's shield he can get dash grabbed. Also if he hits Greninja's Shield you can normally jump and Nair immediately out of shield to hit him if he jumps expecting to followup. Uair works as well sometimes but I prefer the wider hitbox of Nair. WS also generally disrupts kart approaches so it's not like he can spam them.

Greninja's Bair is also a huge pita for BJ's recovery. It's easy to stage spike him should he have to use Up B and if he's forced to recover high Bair or Hydro Pump are relatively easyt moves to use to get him off stage before he lands.

Also, can greninja escape any of his Kart followups with Side B? That could be pretty useful.

Yeah we can catch Mecha Koopas with DA as well. I did a bit of testing and semi charged DO beat them. Nice point though, I do the exact same. Which is why I don't opt to catch them/toss WS in most cases.

As far as Side-B goes. Maybe the way Oracle utilizes it is a way that makes it super safe. He'll do side-b in some cases and then either approach or retreat with D-air (and since it auto cancels/has low end lag) and go from there. Hence my reasoning for saying we should play defensive as well. I do like that we can N-air it though...Think it will be SH Fair/Dair from Side-B on hit?

Gimping BJ just revolves around hitting him out of Up-B. But there's some odd thing where he can Side-B a few times and kinda stall for a bit to mix it up. I personally don't know what triggers it but Oracle's done it a few times. While that happens I just opt to use Hydro Pump and hope to interrupt that.

I don't think we can escape the followups. I know the "Captain Jack Sparrow" is pretty much unavoidable. I believe it's guaranteed on the whole cast?

 

[Golden Sun]

No Toon Link/Link and Sonic matchups?
they have to be one of Greninja's most worst fear, spamming the projectiles, and taking advantage of Greninja's lag on his best moves.
Moves they should really buff if a new balance update appears:
1.Nair having more range, actually matching the animation.
2.Water Shuriken a little more decrease in lag, I know he was increased in the 1.0.4 update, but it couldn't be that bad, right?... But a little decrease in lag would be fine, but not like he was in with his WS in 1.0.3
3.Up-b landing on ground less lag


Also, does Greninja have like, special "parts" of his moveset? I used to call them special parts, what im talking about is, Sonic having a animation cancel when you reach to the peak of the move for his dair, and his side-b spindash shield cancel, special stuff that can trick opponents.
Also, I noticed people can run with Greninja and do a shadow sneak, any idea?

 

[Marilink]

^We are discussing 4 matchups per week. We actually did discuss Toon Link starting on Page 7.

I doubt we will see any buffs (or any further changes in general), so it's best to just learn to work with what we've got.

For Greninja Advanced Techs and "special parts," go check out the Mysterious Arsenal thread that is stickied. It includes techniques like Sprinting Shadow Sneak.

 

[FullMoon]

Funny that you say that Toon Link and Link are among Greninja's most dreaded MUs when everybody else thinks they're among the easiest. With one Toon Link main here even saying it was 70:30 in our favor.

 

[Marilink]

Maybe in For Glory the results are a bit skewed, since FD is a pretty awful stage against projectile users.

 

[TTYK]

Alright, Liberation is out for a bit so I'm advancing the discussion.

This week, week 6, we'll be covering the characters that adore the B button, Duck Hunt/Bowser Jr/Villager/ROB. Though these characters aren't seen constantly like Diddy and Sheik are, they are nevertheless important MUs to know in general seeing as how each character should have a gameplan when going against other characters who have an inclination towards zoning. I know ROB in particular can prove frustrating for Greninja.

Anddddd, commence.

Characters who adore the B button? Where is Link? LOL. Anyways, We definitely have a disadvantage against R.O.B. His down B really kills our approaches, shutting down our shffnair's and forces us to space with shurikens which is a personal pet peeve of mine.

 

[Funkermonster]

Boozer Jr:
As far as BJ goes..I feel we don't win this MU. BJ completely shuts us out in neutral. I don't feel we can ever approach and be safe against him. Mecha Koopas really help in keeping us out. Be careful not to be lured into approaching, ever. BJ can fake out and use the initial pushback from side-B to still get in on us. Also watch out for side-b at higher %'s as well...BJ can get the Side-B hit and then go into Up-B and kill us. It will combo. Oracle and I call it the Captain Jack.

So in our defense. We need to play defensive, super defensive. My main damage has come from landing throws and keeping BJ in the air. Retreating SH Fairs + SH nairs don't seem to work as well on BJ compared to other characters. WS does work sometimes. Sadly it doesn't destroy Mecha Poopa, it will only slow it down for a brief moment. I'm not sure what else to add on this MU, it's definitely a tough one. Probably 60:40 BJ, but might end up being 70:30 BJ's favor.

@Oracle Can add in some more info from BJ's view.

I'm gonna hafta greatly disagree with that overview, I think you've just been outplayed (no offense)

When looking from Junior's view: Mechakoopas are a indeed great tool, but the future is not far off once my opponents realize they can just pick them up and use them against me, since they count as items after all. Projectiles don't prompt approaches if they aren't threatening, and the Mecha Koopa doesn't really scare my opponents if I just let it walk out in neutral. Thus I am actually forced to chase after it and approach people myself, not the other way around. I'd use it mostly when my opponent is trying to land back on the ground, to control certain parts of the stage, or when I already have pressured advantage over my opponent. Considering how it can be picked up, I couldn't really zone with it unless was oblivious to this fact. Junior's other projectile, the Cannonball, is really not that great of a move. It's got slow startup, is telegraphed, easy to powershield, and is easy to punish at anything other than ridiculously long ranges (which he doesn't threaten in the first place) due to its endlag. It's not hard to just powershield it and as Greninja you can also block with Substitute and possibly retaliate, his cannonball isn't really useful for much besides punishing landings and edgeguarding, and even then Substitute should take care of both and he has better options to choose from. Also, Fully Charged Shurikens still destroy the Mechakoopas.

And while it can be tough to approach Junior (I say so mostly because of his Fair and his 3 good tilts), Junior himself is terrible at approaching us when we've got Water Shurikens. Bowser Junior actually has a lot of trouble approaching in general, and like I said before his zoning tools aren't particularly amazing, so he's kind of forced to do it in a number of matchups.

• His dash speed is below average
• He has good air speed and his aerials are useful in their own right, but have nasty landing lag and are not safe on shield
• SideB can combo into things alright, but it greatly limits his options and actions he can utilize, doesn't have enough to warrant it being called a good approach (no shield, no grab, limited attacks). It doesn't even move all that fast, its trajectory is telegraphed, and its super unsafe on shield.

It's also worth noting that Junior's grab game is pretty bad too. His grab is slow, not as slow as or 's grabs (thank the lord), but still slow. Almost as slow as a tether grab, and it doesn't even have the range of a tether grab. Somethings can be safe on shield against him that wouldn't be against most other characters cuz' of its slowness, and his other options out of shield aren't overwhelming either. I'll admit, Greninja also possess a slower-than-normal grab that comes out around frame 14; but at least we've got great combo and pressure options from them. Even if Junior does get a grab, it's not the end of the world when he's got a poor set of throws that neither posses any raw kill power nor allow for any combos, all he's really got is a fast pummel: Back throw can deal 12% damage and can get us offstage (and Junior's offstage game is certainly respectable) and Up throw puts us above him, and you almost never want to be above Junior. That's it really though, his throws are pretty much average at best

But overall I don't really see this matchup being 3-7 or even in his favor at all, it's really not that difficult once you get used to playing (or his subordinates) and learn his general flaws:

• His grab game is underwhelming
• His approach options are limited
• His OoS options are limited
• Even his killing options are limited

He's got the tools for both zoning and rushdown gameplay, but he doesn't actually excel at either of them, and he has trouble dealing with characters who do. Maybe it's not exactly in our favor, but I don't really see it being in his either. That said, take advantage of that. You make Junior approach you, not the other way 'round. Pelt him with shurikens, use his own mechakoopas against him, combo him all-out with brute force (he's a heavy, he can't take this kind of punishment well), gimp him with Hydro Pump if he tries to recover with UpB.

 

[Leisha]

I haven't really played much of this match-up since there's only one player I know that plays greninja in my state.

From what I've played from the matchup at least, I think its probably 55-45 more in geninjas favor. I find the uncharged water shuriken stars can poke rob a bit. Pretty annoying to deal with, I wouldn't recommend charging them since Rob can reflect those back, although it has alot of start up lag so use it to punish if the robs approaching with N-airs or something laggy. Essentially don't let ROB camp you out and get into his face. ROB has trouble with rush down characters and wont be able to chase you around. Watch out at low %'s as ROB has a D-tilt setup if he gets the trip on you. Usually leads to a free grab setup (Dthrow to Uair) or free Dsmash. ROB's up B got a mega nerf in this game due to much less horizontal (in-case you didnt know). If hes running low on fuel you could probably Up b and push him away from the stage. Watch the poor robot fall to his death :< Careful when recovering, Robs B-Air can kill at stupidly low %'s offstage if you don't mix up your recovery.

Also if you wanna be a major douche bag, you can steal the gyro if you have a % lead and run away. Rob cant really do much other than try to chip damage with the laser or run after you Be careful with gyro as its one of robs best tools and most players will probably sit in front of one placed on the stage.

Anyway this is probably stuff you all know already, I'll provide more info for you guys when I actually start playing some higher level Geninjas.

 

[MartinAW4]

I also think that Bowser Jr. is not a bad matchup for us at all. He`s a pretty unique character with many different tools, but once you learn what he can do, he`s not that hard to play against. Marilink summed up his weaknesses very well, the slow grab being the main one, allowing us to appraoch more safely with SHFF Nairs and Fairs. He`s one of those characters like Link, Bowser, Ganon, DK or Palutena that I can often beat even when they`re played by a better player than me. So he either has a very high learning curve and does significantly better at the highest level of play or the matchup is actually in our favor.

Out of the characters we`re discussing, I find Villager to be by far the hardest matchup. He`s small and floaty so he`s hard to combo. His Uair and Dair have very high priority, so we can`t even juggle him in the air safely with our Uair. Even our Usmash which technically beats his Dair has to be timed very well, otherwise he will trade with us, dealing full Dair damage while we only land the weak 5% hit. And off stage he`s impossible to gimp if he gets a chance to use his Up B. We can just rack up damage with Bair or push him above the stage with Hydro Pump and try to punish his landing. But I usually end up having to kill him with Uthrow.
We don`t even win the projectile war. Pocket prevents us from using fully charged WS and Lloyd rocket might be slow, but it can`t be destroyed by our shurikens during start-up. And if we destroy it after it`s launched, Villager can replace it immediately with a new one. He also covers a lot of our approaches with it. If we jump over the rocket he can slingshot us. If we shield it too far, he sets up a new one and if we shield it too close, he can grab us. We just have to slowly approach with shield and dash attack him during the Lloyd rocket start-up, possibly getting a Fair follow-up as well.
Another interesting thing is that his Fsmash has almost no end lag, so we can`t punish it if he misses.
His main weakness is a very slow grab, which makes our aerial and dash attack approaches safer. But overall this is probably my least favorite character to face because of how slow and boring the games get. Ever time I face a good one, I can`t seem to win without the games going to time or the last minute.

I don`t have much experience against DHD, so I can`t say much. He usually builds up a percent lead, but he has a lot of trouble killing if you watch out for his Uair. While for us his recovery is one of the easiest to gimp, especially with Bair stage spike. So the matches often end up much closer than the percents make it seem.

And I have even less experience against ROB, having faced only 3-4 so far. One of them was pretty good. He killed with Dthrow -> Uair very soon, but later I noticed that it can be airdodged. He can also reflect fully charged shurikens, so be careful when using those. He can be comboed and juggled in the air pretty well because he has a pretty big hurtbox and his aerials have a lot of start-up lag (he has the slowest Nair in the game). And his recovery is also weak to Bair. So overall the matchup seemed about even, but I still need to play it against more players before I decide who has the advantage.

 

[Gunla]

Following APEX 2015 results, we'll take this week to cover some higher placing characters (that we haven't already) from the bracket.

For that, we'll discuss Diddy Kong, Rosalina & Luma, Olimar and Sonic.

 

[FullMoon]

A couple of things about Sonic I'm not sure about, but can we beat Spin Dash with a well-timed N-air, and is it possible to grab him during Spin Dash with some good timing? Greninja's grab has long start-up, but the fact that it remains in effect for a good time means we could potentially use it as a trap against moves like Spindash and Jr's Side-B, maybe it could even be used that way against Monkey Flip, I don't know if the kick has priority over the grab.

 

[Reksho]

I've been playing an extremely good Greninja in my last tournament (Avalon) and have some things to say as a Sonic main. Spin Dash has very low priority and many moves will cancel it out (sometimes even jabs). I can especially see Greninja abusing his neutral B to counter Sonic's moves. However, when Sonic fully charges his Spin Dash, it does have a bit more priority although I haven't tested it against Greninja's water shurikens. The spin dash also has invincibility frames at the start of the little hop which can be used to get through.

Grabbing is generally a bad idea against Sonic's spin dashes (unless you have extremely good hand-eye coordination). You will see a lot of faking out the spin dash by shielding. Sonic players just love doing this to condition you to shield (or grab) so that they cancel the spin dash and run up to you to punish you for it. Do not use counter as it's too slow to touch Sonic and you may even get punished for it because of his speed.

Greninja's N-air is amazing and I didn't have an answer for it during the tournament except for shielding and immediately getting grabbed for it (though I should've been the one doing the grabbing in hindsight). Greninja's moves on the ground generally has a bit of endlag (especially the B moves) and Sonic will get you for this when they miss. Focus on aerial moves and getting Sonic off the ground to juggle him as his speed is too much to handle for Greninja's slow groundgame in comparison. Sonic has good aerial moves himself but none of them kill without setups except for B-air which is pretty difficult to hit with.

 

[Coffee™]

A couple of things about Sonic I'm not sure about, but can we beat Spin Dash with a well-timed N-air, and is it possible to grab him during Spin Dash with some good timing? Greninja's grab has long start-up, but the fact that it remains in effect for a good time means we could potentially use it as a trap against moves like Spindash and Jr's Side-B, maybe it could even be used that way against Monkey Flip, I don't know if the kick has priority over the grab.

Nair is hard as hell to time against a good Sonic that stays mobile. I like Dash Attack a lot against Sonic though. It's a really good way to punish spindash after he hits your shield or to cover his landings.

Also, just a thought at the moment but concerning matchups what do you guys think about discussing them in terms of the state of play.

For example I'm thinking: The Neutral, Advantageous, Disadvantageous and Edgeguarding as the "states". How each character plays in these states is pretty much what defines the matchup, and breaking down each part would be quite helpful in terms of trying to figure out how to go about fighting the opposing character's kit as a whole in comparison to the random information spewing most matchup threads come down to.

Thoughts?

 

[David Galanos]

Nair is hard as hell to time against a good Sonic that stays mobile. I like Dash Attack a lot against Sonic though. It's a really good way to punish spindash after he hits your shield or to cover his landings.

Also, just a thought at the moment but concerning matchups what do you guys think about discussing them in terms of the state of play.

For example I'm thinking: The Neutral, Advantageous, Disadvantageous and Edgeguarding as the "states". How each character plays in these states is pretty much what defines the matchup, and breaking down each part would be quite helpful in terms of trying to figure out how to go about fighting the opposing character's kit as a whole in comparison to the random information spewing most matchup threads come down to.

Thoughts?

yeah I like that. That sounds more organized and helpful

Btw, assuming it's u, I saw u at apex, you were great

 

[mario123007]

Rosalina on the top place is thanks to Danbuz, if Greninja has a player who can be really good using him, who knows? Maybe everyone will consider Greninja on the top tier!
Sonic vs Greninja can be a fast pacing and exciting match.

 

[FullMoon]

Nair is hard as hell to time against a good Sonic that stays mobile. I like Dash Attack a lot against Sonic though. It's a really good way to punish spindash after he hits your shield or to cover his landings.

Also, just a thought at the moment but concerning matchups what do you guys think about discussing them in terms of the state of play.

For example I'm thinking: The Neutral, Advantageous, Disadvantageous and Edgeguarding as the "states". How each character plays in these states is pretty much what defines the matchup, and breaking down each part would be quite helpful in terms of trying to figure out how to go about fighting the opposing character's kit as a whole in comparison to the random information spewing most matchup threads come down to.

Thoughts?

Additionally we could go over what stages are better for Greninja to deal with his opponents.

 

[Drexel]

The Sonic matchup is one of the most fun in my opinion as I have had a lot of fun matches against very good Sonic players and have beaten many of them with the frog, (I consider myself pretty good with Greninja). Plus I love lightning quick matches with intense action.

While Sonic is the fastest in the game and has some good approaches, Greninja's projectile deals splendidly well with them, cancelling/overriding them depending on their size. And I don't know if its because of the extensive time I have playing not only with Greninja but against good Sonics, but I haven't had too much trouble timing Greninja's aerials. I find fastfall NAirs and FAirs easy to execute against anybody, (but that's just me). many of Greninja's attacks seem to be able to outspace Sonic's. I like to rely on the Dash Attack and DTilt a lot on Sonic as they are quick, reliable and can lead to some nice follow ups and mixups, but spaced Ftilt works very well to poke Sonic away and FSmash is a viable follow up to that against aggressive Sonics. If you get Sonic in the air and stay proactive or a step ahead of Sonic in terms of what he's going to do while you juggle him, (fastfall, dodge, attack etc.), Greninja has an answer for almost every situation with his moveset. While I certainly don't think this is Greninja's best matchup, he has ways to safely rack up bits of damage on Sonic.

However, Sonic also has some advantages over Greninja. His horizontal mobility is insane and his follow up game in the air is also quite good and very quick with help of the USpecial spring jump that can give him some impressive KOs at the top end of the screen. Plus if he reads your shurikens/Shadow Sneaks and gets around them, he has enough time to get in on you and punish you with speed. This matchup to me feels a deadlock 50/50 as both characters have abilities to gain advantage over each other. Possibly 55/45 due to decent success I have against Sonics.

In terms of good/bad stage choices for this matchup, here's what I think. Greninja's shurikens need to be used so bad stages would include those with uneven surfaces like Windy Hill Zone and Corneria where Greninja's shurikens become practically useless. Flat stages with no platforms like FD, Wily Castle and Pyrosphere I feel like are good choices as it forces Sonic to work around the shurikens.

 

[FullMoon]

About Diddy though, I've heard we have an advantage over him, but I never really understood why.