Marth Match-Up Discussion (Update: ZSS!)

[Locuan]

Welcome everyone to the Marth - Match-up Analysis and Discussion thread. As the title suggests, here we will analyze Marth's match-ups to determine his strength's and weaknesses against the characters of the Super Smash Bros for 3DS and Wii U roster.

The game is new, the meta-game will take years to establish. Keep that in mind. The information here will have to be updated constantly during each shift in the meta-game. As a consequence, the posts that you will see will have varying views regarding how to play against each character.

Before we begin, this is a previous match-up thread. Here you can find some early but still relevant information regarding match-ups. Now unto the schedule.

Schedule: We will do single character match-ups every two days . This will keep match-up discussion a bit more active.
However, feel free to add any input on any other character match-up that has yet to be discussed, as well as ask questions about them in this thread.

Data Submission: If you plan to contribute in a more precise and effective form, please include links highlighting any information or videos that back up your data. With that said, the meta-game is still new so for now there will be an soft-exception to this rule.

General Rules: No flaming please from either side of the discussion spectrum. Everyone enjoys their own character. We will have people from different character sub-forums joining in on the discussion. Respect each other and lets figure out every little secret this game has to offer.

The overall score will be based on a score of 100. Something like 40-60. Both numbers add to 100 as you can see. The number on the left will represent Marth, the number on the right the current match-up opponent in discussion. For example, let's say that we have a favorable match-up against Roy, we would say 60-40 if its slightly in Marth's advantage. 90-10, 80-20, would be highly advantageous for Marth. 70-30, 60-40 would be for a slight advantage. 50-50 would be neutral. 40-60, 30-70 would be for slight disadvantage while 20-80, 10-90 would be for a great disadvantage. I will determine the final ratio after taking everyone's numbered opinions into account.

Please Remember: When discussing match-ups we must assume that both players are playing each character to their utmost potential always.

Original Post updates: I will update the original post after each character the end of each week. If I am unable to update this post, I will let you guys know in a post in this thread during the future. It will probably be due to either 1. I am Sick, 2. I am on Vacation; I will update the thread as soon as I am available. If this happens, please make sure to continue the discussion with another character and it will be updated.

Table of Match-Ups:

| | | | | | | | | |
| 53.75:46.25 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | 35:65 | ?:?

| | | | | | | | | |
| ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | 50:50 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | 40?:60? | 60:40

| | | | | | | | | |
| 50:50 | 50:50 | ?:? | 45?:55? | ?:? | ?:? | 50:50 | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?

| | | | | | | | | |
| ?:? | ?:? | 55:45 | ?:? | 35?:65? | ?:? | 55?:45? , 50?:50? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?

| | | | | | | | | |
| ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:? | ?:?

Schedule:

• Discussion Period 1 (12/16/2014 - 12/18/2014):
• Discussion Period 2 (12/20/2014 - 12/22/2014):
• Discussion Period 3 (12/23/2014 - 12/25/2014):
• Discussion Period 4 (12/26/2014 - 12/28/2014):
• Discussion Period 5 (12/29/2014 - 12/31/2014):
• Discussion Period 6 (01/01/2015 - 01/03/2015):
• Discussion Period 7 (01/05/2015 - 01/07/2015):
• Discussion Period 8 (01/08/2015 - 01/10/2015):
• Discussion Period 9 (01/11/2015 - 01/13/2015):
• Discussion Period 10 (01/15/2015 - 01/17/2015):
• Discussion Period 11 (01/19/2015 - 01/21/2015):
• Discussion Period 12 (01/22/2015 - 01/24/2015):
• Discussion Period 13 (01/29/2015 - 02/02/2015):
• Discussion Period 14 (02/05/2015 - 02/07/2015):
• Discussion Period 15 (02/08/2015 - 02/10/2015):
• Discussion Period 16 (02/13/2015 - 02/15/2015):
• Discussion Period 17 (02/21/2015 - 02/23/2015):
• Discussion Period 18 (02/24/2015 - 02/26/2015):
• Discussion Period 19 (03/03/2015 - 03/07/2015):
• Discussion Period 20 (03/11/2015 - 03/15/2015):
• Discussion Period 21 (03/20/2015 - 03/24/2015):
• Discussion Period 22 (04/01/2015 - 04/05/2015):
• Discussion Period 23 (04/21/2015 - 04/25/2015):
• Discussion Period 24 (04/25/2015 - 04/29/2015):

Diddy Kong:
[35-65]

Spoiler

Discussion begins on @ Random4811 post. @ kj22 gives a detailed insight on his thoughts on the match-up both on the neutral game and off-stage on this next post. @ Shaya gives an overview of the match-up with his recent experience playing against some of the current top players. Discussion ends at post #24.

Shiek:
[?-?]

Spoiler

Nothing here yet!

Captain Falcon:
[55?-45?, 50-50?]

Spoiler

Discussion begins on @ Shaya 's post. In general the match-up is pretty even. Marth shines in gimping C. Falcon once he is out of stage due to his disjointed hitboxes. On the other hand, C. Falcon's strong juggle game can hurt Marth. Especially his d-throw > Uair chains. @Satan- gives an extensive analysis on his thoughts on the match-up on this post. He analyzes multiple aspects from both Marth's and C. Falcon's perspectives. As with other discussions, I recommend reading through the full discussion. If you have anything to add, or counter argue feel free to do so. The discussion ends on this post.

Pit:
[40?-60?]

Spoiler

Pit discussion begins with @ Zano 's post. He adds his input on the match-up from Dark Pit's perspective. Both character's are very similar. Pit will never approach with Side B. @X-ian add's his input on this post. We need to cover more ground on this discussion so we will be addressing it at a later date.

Pikachu:
[?-?]

Spoiler

Nothing here yet!

Fox:
[?-?]

Spoiler

Nothing here yet!

Duck Hunt:
[45-55?, 40-60?]

Spoiler

Discussion begins with @Diamond DHD's post. @Spirst gives a more descriptive input on the match-up on the following post. He describes how Marth wants to force Duck Hunt to the edges of the stage and the off-stage game amongst other topics. Discussion continues until @Wispy's post. She describes Duck Hunts options of stage control and the properties of the gunmen. I recommend reading about the discussion starting from @Diamond DHD's post. If you switch up to the Duck Hunt Match-Up Thread, I give my input on the match-up there. @EternalFlame also adds his input.

Ike:
[50-50]

Spoiler

Discussion period begins with @ Random4811 's post. @ Shaya gives a general overview of Ike's grab game and kill options. Everyone mentions how the match is even and it comes down to spacing and making the correct reads. @Nidtendofreak highlights the differences between both characters in this post with frame data!

Luigi:
[?-?]

Spoiler

Nothing here yet!

Yoshi:
[?-?]

Spoiler

The Yoshi discussion is incomplete. A lot of differing view-points. We need to come back to this discussion later on. Regardless, discussion begins with @Charles post. While most people indicate neutrality or and advantage for Yoshi, @ Shaya indicates why it might be the other way around in this post. Discussion ends with a lot of questions and observations by @CelestialMarauder~ on this post.

Wii Fit Trainer:
[?-?]

Spoiler

Not much in terms of discussion for this match-up. However, we did have extensive input by @Niala on the following post. @Charls then add his own view on the match-up on the following post. He also includes insight on the Yoshi and Luigi match-ups. Due to the small discussion, a match-up number is not given. We have to return to this match-up at a later date.

Lucario:
[?-?]

Spoiler

Lucario discussion was limited. Some data was shared by @adamlon1 on this post, and by @ Random4811 on this post. We will come back to this match-up at a later date.

Bowser Jr:
[?-?]

Spoiler

Nothing here yet!

Ganondorf:
[50-50]

Spoiler

Incredible discussion by the Ganon and Marth mains this time around! Thanks everyone. The general consensus is that this match-up is 50-50. Discussion begins on @JmacAttack's post where he gives an insight throughout different stages in the match-up. The following posts describe the same information from different perspectives but they are recommended reads. Following that the Ganon mains have a little fun in our thread Discussion picks up again following @A2ZOMG's post after playing some matches against @Emblem Lord. He also describes how larger stages can be advantageous for Ganondorf in this match-up.

ROB:
[35?-65?]

Spoiler

ROB discussion begins on @PowerHungryFool's post. Everyone mentions ROB's ability zone out with his projectiles. We need more discussion here.

Rosalina and Luma:
[50-50]

Spoiler

Discussion begins with @ Shaya 's post. He covers Marth's options with full hop/late aerials, shieldbreaker and dash assault against Rosalina. He also covers edge-guarding options. @Charls covers some general insight to the match-up on this post. Due to this posts and those that follow it, much like @Quickhero's post, this match-up is determined to be even at the current moment. Definitely something we should go back to in the future.

Jigglypuff:
[55-45]

Spoiler

The discussion begins with @Jiggly's post. He describes Marth's advantages and disadvantages in the match--up. The posts that follow highlight Marth's range as a good asset. Jiggly's rest combos start to be discussed on the following post. Discussion ends on the following post. Due to the wild range of Match-Up ratios given, I will tentatively place it somewhere in the average of what was stated. We definitely need to come back to the match up at a later date.

Palutena:
[60-40]

Spoiler

A bunch of Palutena posts to go over so let's get started.

1. @CanadianCourage's post.
   
2. @Brinzy's post. He discusses the custom Palutena match-up.
3. @Rewrite's post. In depth discussion about the match-up against custom Palutena.
4. @Wintropy's post. Input is given from the Palutena side.

Meta Knight:
[45-55, 50-50]

Spoiler

Lot's of discussion. Awesome! It begins with @adamlon1's post. @AmishTechnology provides a very knowledgeable post on MK's General strengths and weaknesses while also covering certain aspects of the match-up. This is a recommended read if you are looking for help against Meta Knight. @ Shaya clarifies some frame data information while also indicating that Marth's range can be a problem for MK. Shaya then states a lot of Marth's tools that are effective in the match-up against MK. @Katakiri goes incredibly in depth regarding MK's tools as well. He also describes what Marth can do in the match-up. Frame Data for MK is provided. Most members mentioned MK's Dash Grab and Dash Attack as dangerous tools in the neutral game.

Wario:
[?-?]

Spoiler

Not a lot of discussion on the Wario Match-up. Discussion begins on this post. It ends on the following post. We need to come back to this match-up.

Mario:
[53.75-46.25]

Spoiler

We had some discussion on the Mario match-up but only three ratios where given. Two of those where in favor of Marth, while one was for Mario. Discussion begins @Thinktron's post. It is then followed up by @HeroMystic's insight. @Xeze then provides his own view on the match-up. @OmegaSorin also gives her input on the match-up. At this point they mention Marth's range as well as edgeguarding potential against Mario has Marth with the advantage.

Greninja:
[?-?]

Spoiler

Discussion begins with @FullMoon's post covering aspects of the match-up from the Greninja side. @Langston777 then adds some insight from the Marth side of things. There was not a lot of discussion on this match-up so we cannot come up with a ratio. We need to discuss this once more at a later date.

Megaman:
[?-?]

Spoiler

Discussion begins with @Ben McLean's post. Ends with @Rewrite's post. We need more information to fully cover the match-up and obtain a ratio.

Zero Suit Samus:
[?-?]

Spoiler

Nothing here yet!

If you have any suggestions on how to improve this thread please let me know!

 

[Locuan]

Reserved for future data.

 

[Random4811]

Diddy is an interesting case. Marth cannot play aggressively against him at all. Marth needs Diddy to approach. He wants to play at mid range as much as possible, keeping Diddy's peanut gun unsafe to throw out. Bait out Dash-grabs and Side B and punish accordingly. If Diddy rolls into you, you have several options to consider punishing with. For example, Dsmash comes out fairly quickly, and if you hit him with the back hit, can K.O. pretty reliably.

However, Diddy isnt impossible as some like to think. You can DI from his Dthrow to throw him off, and potentially escape the combo. This means you should be able to punish him for his uair, or hit him before he hits you on his next action due to your disjoints.

Once you get him into the air, he's a little less hard to deal with. His auto cancels are really good, but you have your disjoints. Good reads will get you through his fair wall, so long as you are careful and smart.

Getting him off stage is basically all you can dream of, so long as you are in advantage whilst getting him off stage (not a good idea to let him take you off, he can wall you straight to the blast zone if you're not careful. ) because his recovery is so awful. He is so so so easy to gimp. If he gets anywhere level with the stage, go for a bair or dolphin stage spike. His recovery is so awful that you should have a good couple of seconds to get hit him out of it before he is out of range. If you can spike him, more power to you. He should be a prime spike candidate for a good couple of seconds. Like the rest of the time, you have to read what he does.
Don't just go in expecting a guaranteed gimp, because he CAN recover before you can hit him if you aren't close enough. I find it beneficial to be sort of in his way, like with Ness' PK thunder, because you can counter his recovery and possibly kill him that simple as well.
Plus his recovery is super easy to SD with. So, Diddy may take care of himself.

overall, I'd say the MU is between 30-70 and 20-80 In favor of Diddy. His tools are much more low risk with much higher reward. He can approach without committing to anything, where as we have a LOT of commitment with our approach options. Marth is going to have to put in a LOT of work to beat a equal Diddy player. Diddy, on the other hand, doesn't have to put much thought into eating Marth mains for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

 

[Zano]

MU is either 60:40 or 65:35 at worst, just don't ever do a laggy aerial or you're getting grabbed. This MU kinda reminds me of fighting DDD in brawl in where it tests how good your spacing is and gets you punished hard if you mess up.

 

[kj22]

Diddy is an interesting case. Marth cannot play aggressively against him at all. Marth needs Diddy to approach. He wants to play at mid range as much as possible, keeping Diddy's peanut gun unsafe to throw out. Bait out Dash-grabs and Side B and punish accordingly. If Diddy rolls into you, you have several options to consider punishing with. For example, Dsmash comes out fairly quickly, and if you hit him with the back hit, can K.O. pretty reliably.

Adding on to what you're saying, I'd say Marth needs to play passive-aggressive. Keeping at a safe range (outside immediate dash grab but inside side-b range because dash grab is FAST and your first instinct vs a running opponent is usually shield, and if they side-b you hey its better than grab and its follow-ups right?) is crucial, as well as knowing how to stuff AND punish what. If you're outside dash grab range (diddy has to hard commit to a run in grab) the only immediate things Diddy can do are side-b and peanut gun. Jab deals with the later, and ftilt, jab(?) perfectly timed fsmash, upsmash(probably trade, but worth it if you know it'll KO) and counter can stuff it if grounded, while a well timed fair/nair (maybe up-air?) and again counter can stuff it in the air. If you're shielding and see the monkey flip coming, you can up b out of shield before it hits you or on the other side after it passes through you. Dsmash, upsmash, Dancing Blade, and up-B can all punish rolls. Also jumping then waiting till they finish rolling and bairing as you land is a very very good tool to punish rolls if you are in the air and they roll.

I argue the neutral is where marth wants diddy, where he can safely stuff his approaches and hopefully get him into a juggle situation. Diddy with a banana in hand however, is a different story. Marth wants to quickly close the distance the minute he sees diddy pull a banana and attempt to read his landing, realizing that his options are limited with a banana in hand. Do NOT attack a diddy with a banana in hand (shieldbreaker is okay only if you know it will hit/they're still gonna shield) as thats a free banana toss+whatever they're feeling devious enough to do. Grabbing is the best thing Marth can do to a Diddy with a banana as most likely they will be shielding (though i can see more competent diddy's z-dropping and doing aerials but lets not go there...) As long as Marth stays outside diddy's immediate dash grab range, he's not at a severe disadvantage. If diddy has a banana out in neutral, wait for diddy to throw it and it disappears, then resume play like usual. I'm not above saying Marth should outright camp a diddy with a nana in hand. Literally nothing he throws out is safe, and since his dash to shield is terrible, running in to try to grab the "option-less" diddy isn't quite as strong an option. Avoiding diddy by using full hops, rising sh airdoges, then landing laglessly ready to jump/roll away from danger or land behind the diddy chasing you with a nana in hand to grab him are a few options.

Up close its a lot harder for marth as pretty much every grounded move but dtilt can be shielded then grabbed/dashed grabbed UNLESS its a tipper range. Tipper ftilt and jab should be safe. Diddy can afford to be much less cautious throwing out moves at this range, as dtilt and a well spaced ftilt are safe on shield (marth can still attack his limbs though. Unless one's in the air, 9/10 if Marth and Diddy attack at the same time Marth attack should win if not trade) At this range Marth cannot afford to be stuck in shield to long as diddy's will definitely be looking for a dash grab after anythingggg (especially landings). A Marth in shield is not as scary as a diddy in shield (especially one with a banana)

I argue diddy has a pretty large advantage up close. If something so much as *touches* his shield and its not a retreating aerial/max tipper range move, marth can eat a punish. And that's not even mentioning cross up rolls. Up close Marth needs to not over commit. Empty hops and dtilt are your friend. You can actually do a ftilt from a crouch I believe by hitting cstick forward while crouching to mess with diddy's trying to jump in on you when you crouch. Diddy has dtilt to "test the waters" as well as ftilt as a quick and not very laggy poke.

However, Diddy isnt impossible as some like to think. You can DI from his Dthrow to throw him off, and potentially escape the combo. This means you should be able to punish him for his uair, or hit him before he hits you on his next action due to your disjoints.

Hold towards diddy back (with just one stick, the control stick) when Dthrown to minimize the amount of aerials diddy can hit you with. One thing I've been thinking about is at higher percents after being Dthrown to counter right before being upaired. Granted it may work once or twice, but once you put that into the oppenents head they'll hesitate the next Dthrow, giving you enough time to hopefully jump away to safety. Does this work at all/low percents?

Once you get him into the air, he's a little less hard to deal with. His auto cancels are really good, but you have your disjoints. Good reads will get you through his fair wall, so long as you are careful and smart.

Stay grounded/close to the ground when juggling. Airdoges have IASA frames meaning as diddy airdodges through your whiffed up-air in your attempt to juggle him, you can get up-aired before you're even done with your aerial. I'd say to shield as he falls into you, but fair has decent shieldpush and stun back meaning your punish is going to have to be on point and fast. Spot dodging avoids the shield stun and the shield pushback, and you can do anything you want out of it (such as buffer a dash if he double jumps away to chase, buffer a grab if his aerial missed/he landed then shielded, buffer a dsmash to cover a roll, etc)
He does have monkey flip and b-reversing to change his momentum, so instead of dashing around trying to catch him like a monkey (haha) WALK. You have every option available to you out of your walk and if he changes directions you can a)dash after him b) short backwards and fast fall and resuming walking in the opposite direction or c) just press back softly and you should turn away and start walking (think its slower then the previous options though)

Getting him off stage is basically all you can dream of, so long as you are in advantage whilst getting him off stage (not a good idea to let him take you off, he can wall you straight to the blast zone if you're not careful. ) because his recovery is so awful. He is so so so easy to gimp. If he gets anywhere level with the stage, go for a bair or dolphin stage spike. His recovery is so awful that you should have a good couple of seconds to get hit him out of it before he is out of range. If you can spike him, more power to you. He should be a prime spike candidate for a good couple of seconds. Like the rest of the time, you have to read what he does.
Don't just go in expecting a guaranteed gimp, because he CAN recover before you can hit him if you aren't close enough. I find it beneficial to be sort of in his way, like with Ness' PK thunder, because you can counter his recovery and possibly kill him that simple as well.
Plus his recovery is super easy to SD with. So, Diddy may take care of himself.

overall, I'd say the MU is between 30-70 and 20-80 In favor of Diddy. His tools are much more low risk with much higher reward. He can approach without committing to anything, where as we have a LOT of commitment with our approach options. Marth is going to have to put in a LOT of work to beat a equal Diddy player. Diddy, on the other hand, doesn't have to put much thought into eating Marth mains for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Practice chasing diddy offstage. This, along with Marth in rage mode's redonkulous power (btw...diddy in rage mode up-air...tear inducing) is Marth's saving grace. Always always always expect the side b first. Don't think nooooo they "obv wont go for it i already spiked them out of it 30 times in a row", idc, expect, and be READY to bair/fair/nair/ftilt/dair/upb(hype) that monkey to the moon for choosing such a predictable *** move against the hero king. If they're being gutsy and doing the kick, just counter it. Again. And Again. Make them not even THINK about recovering high. You WANT ledge traps. You NEED ledge traps. You'd rather go high every time and have them grab the ledge while you're waiting onstage smirking then them go high while you grab the ledge and them smirking with a banana in hand. I've already written a crapton so I'll save ledge traps for another post, but ledgetraps are definitellllly going to help Marth in this mu more than the norm. If you're ever near diddy as his charges his barrels, just DB1 him, jump up (and potentially footstool) him and laugh. I believe I read that counter also works as well. Nair is also good since it's out the longest, meaning more chances to hit a diddy flying at you.

KO Moves
Marth: fsmash, upsmash back hit dsmash, bair, dancing blade upperward, up-air, upthrow. and ftilt (need to confirm what percents)
Diddy: fsmash, upair, fair, upsmash, bair(?) Sideb kick, fthrow/bthrow.

Who's more dangerous with rage?
Um...I'll give this to diddy, though Marth is still scary. The chances of landing a grab-->up-air vs a tipper fsmash are much more likely for a grab, but tipper fsmash kills much, much, earlier. Banana's make dying very early to a rage mode Diddy Kong a very scary real thing however.

Who's gonna have an easier time killing?
Diddy due to d-throw upair. However once marth is passed the range its no longer guaranteed, diddy has to work a little bit harder (but can still kill with fthrow/bthrow, and monkey flip) Marth will most likely kill offstage/gimp or fsmash read.

I see it as
35-65 40-60
As long as the marth doesn't over commit and plays passive aggressive (i.e not approaching). Force diddy to come to you, and if he has a banana respect him until he throws it away. Remember he cannot attack or grab you, but that doesn't mean wail on his shield. Shieldbreaker can catch him if he's shielding excessively to bait you into attacking his shield, as well as grabbing him/ jumping around him and grabbing him.

Feel free to negate/say I'm dead wrong/add on to my comments. I'll be talking about ledgetrapping when I get more time, and writing it from a diddys perspective (Are we going to invite the diddy boards to partake in our conversation?) I think we should.

MU is either 60:40 or 65:35 at worst, just don't ever do a laggy aerial or you're getting grabbed. This MU kinda reminds me of fighting DDD in brawl in where it tests how good your spacing is and gets you punished hard if you mess up.

I see what you mean. Unfortunately diddy is quick...and run up-->roll behind is actually viable now LOL.
Not over committing is the key. This mu is the epitome of "how safe is your marth". Is what you're doing actually good/real/safe with marth, or is it bs? If it's bs you're gonna get destroyed. If not, then congratulations, you can pretty much play like this vs the entire case (minus sonic) and do well ;D

 

[Locuan]

@ kj22 you can invite the Diddy board members of course. Also, be wary of double posting as it is against Smashboards Terms of Service and rules. When you need to add content to a post you have made previously use the edit button. I have merged your posts.

 

[kj22]

@ kj22 you can invite the Diddy board members of course. Also, be wary of double posting as it is against Smashboards Terms of Service and rules. When you need to add content to a post you have made previously use the edit button. I have merged your posts.

My apologies, that was an accident

 

[Locuan]

No worries! Also, a question on my part. What if Marth is the one recovering from out of stage? What would Diddy's option be in terms of edge guarding Marth and how should Marth respond in those situations?

 

[kj22]

No worries! Also, a question on my part. What if Marth is the one recovering from out of stage? What would Diddy's option be in terms of edge guarding Marth and how should Marth respond in those situations?

Diddy can jump out and try to fair marth (its very quick, if Marth tries to fair him back it'll most likely trade) or shoot peanuts to try and clip his double jump.
I honestly don't think higher level diddys will be trying to go offstage and hit marth much mainly due to 1)if they mess up/get footstooled they can easily die and 2) their ledgetrapping game being so strong, safe, and rewarding (banana + peanut setups) 3) if marth recovers low they really can't do anything about it. Unless dair trades with dolphin slash, even a marth spamming airdodge until their low enough to up-b will recover. Diddy can't chase that low and takes a huge risk if he tries to, so with a much more rewarding ledgetrapping game I don't see diddy actively trying to chase marth offstage in the future.
If diddy does jump out and try to fair marth airdodge is pretty strong due to the fact that it forces diddy to have to fall further, and the lower down diddy falls the more trouble he's in. Fair is good as well if you're spacings immaculate, or double jump above him and spike him. counter works as well.
Diddy could pluck a banana and throw at marth but marth can zcatch or catch with an aerial...same with peanuts.

In terms of ledgetrapping as diddy and as Marth I'll post on that tomorrow.

 

[Akira213]

I'd probably lean towards 30:70 or 40:60, approaching Diddy as Marth is mostly up to how well you can read him, beyond that Diddy just has better options in most everything. Still, Marth has potent edgeguarding and Diddy's recovery is probably his #1 weakness.

 

[LoreLes]

I play regularly with a diddy who's usually top 5 range in our local tournaments and I've learned a lot in this match up. At first I was just getting destroyed but after a day of studying this match up I actually feel that it's not a total uphill battle for Marth. I was getting two stock wins or JVs afterwards consistently.

The number one thing I agree on is that diddy with a banana on hand is terrible to swing at, they really want that chance to hit you with it and go into grabs or any kind of set up. As stated above, grabbing is probably the best thing to do if he's got the banana in hand. My choice here though was just to space the range of the banana and weave in and out of it so that he couldn't spam peanuts. This is also to bait him to use the banana and make it miss.

Short hop fair actually picks up the banana while being safe as you can double jump out of it or just auto cancel without fast falling. Once you got that banana he will stay away from you, giving up control.

Stuffing grab approaches with dancing blade is amazing and if he dash shields just punish with grab or SB. Something else to note, is that if you block the banana and the diddy rushes in for grab then Up B out of shield is really good to punish. Of course it's still situational considering he could bait it but this is something to remember if he gets happy with those bananas.

Also Diddy's recovering is trash if you hit him out of the charge, so always get deep when he's off stage. Watch out for double jump side B as a recovery option.

If you're the one recovering against Diddy, his options are fair/bair and banana drops. The banana drops can be dangerous if you double jumped into it when dropping low. Other than that his options of offstage are pretty limited.

With proper spacing and reads, Diddy really can't do anything besides go bananas and commit to a lot of attacks that can be punished.

 

[Akira213]

As stated above, grabbing is probably the best thing to do if he's got the banana in hand.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Our grab range is pretty weak now and Diddy also has the options of z-dropping and pivot side-b if he's being approached and he doesn't want to straight up throw it at you. I've also seen unorthodox applications of Diddy's uncharged up-b from the ground that can be done with banana in hand.

 

[kj22]

I'm not sure I agree with this. Our grab range is pretty weak now and Diddy also has the options of z-dropping and pivot side-b if he's being approached and he doesn't want to straight up throw it at you. I've also seen unorthodox applications of Diddy's uncharged up-b from the ground that can be done with banana in hand.

Our grab range is meh. If you see a diddy dashing at you and know he's going to dash grab, you can standing grab him first.

We're not saying approach diddy and try to grab him when he has a nana, we want to be avoiding a diddy with a nana in hand like the plague but still realize if he's shielding with a nana his options are limited (can't grab, do tilts or smashes). Grabbing and shieldbreaker if his shield isn't fully healthy are the best thing to do to a diddy hiding in shield with a nana.

@ Shaya get in here >.>

 

[Akira213]

Our grab range is meh. If you see a diddy dashing at you and know he's going to dash grab, you can standing grab him first.

We're not saying approach diddy and try to grab him when he has a nana, we want to be avoiding a diddy with a nana in hand like the plague but still realize if he's shielding with a nana his options are limited (can't grab, do tilts or smashes). Grabbing and shieldbreaker if his shield isn't fully healthy are the best thing to do to a diddy hiding in shield with a nana.

@ Shaya get in here >.>

If you're not approaching him I only see him shielding with banana if he's shielding out of dash as he approaches you; shield breaker/grab certainly is the ideal option in that circumstance but you'd have to read the shield and most Diddy's are probably more likely to just toss the banana. Personally speaking, I've had the most success against banana approaches by shielding the toss and using dolphin slash out of shield to stop his approach, although that obviously can't work every time. I suppose a mix of the two approaches might be best?

 

[LoreLes]

Mixing it up is always the best choice and I follow up on that Up B out of shield as well against banana on shield. In my opinion there are two scenarios with Diddy when it comes to the banana. If he's just dashing around and holding the banana then we obviously want to avoid him. Second, if you're spacing well and he doesn't want to let it go then it's easier to limit his options.

If he shields while holding that banana he can't do anything besides tossing the banana or commit to side B which is easy to punish. Besides if you bait the banana toss it's easy to use the banana for yourself and force him into the same situation he does to you all game.

 

[kj22]

If you're not approaching him I only see him shielding with banana if he's shielding out of dash as he approaches you; shield breaker/grab certainly is the ideal option in that circumstance but you'd have to read the shield and most Diddy's are probably more likely to just toss the banana. Personally speaking, I've had the most success against banana approaches by shielding the toss and using dolphin slash out of shield to stop his approach, although that obviously can't work every time. I suppose a mix of the two approaches might be best?

I'm not sure about this, but i feel as though banana sometimes trips you even when you're shielding if it hits your foot. I know it could in brawl, but not sure if it can in smash 4, can anybody confirm?

The problem with waiting in shield vs diddy with a nana is he can still monkey flip you if he knows you like to shield his toss, or bait the up-b by throwing the banana then running up and shielding. Grab isn't nearly as much as a commitment as up-b to stuff his dash approach.

Bad diddies will just aimlessly throw their banana at you and run in and try to grab your shield. If you fight a diddy like that, by all means upb him out of shield. Better diddies will shoot peanuts at you with a nana in hand, baiting you to approach or run at you and shield in hopes you attack their shield recklessly. Grabbing them out of their dash will stuff that or shieldbreaker if their shield is low.

You're reaction depends on what the diddy likes to do. I'd rather avoid the nana completely by emptying hopping/walking away/with movement, then shield to bait a nana throw because smart diddies will then read what you like to do after the nana hits your shield. In shield you're static, you have limited options. If you're empty hopping or walking away you can do much more. Try not to lock yourself in shield.

 

[LoreLes]

Just tested it with regular banana toss and smash tossing and it never trips Marth. A full shield covers Marth's feet and whenever the banana does hit the shield it bounces up and a small distance away. Even if you don't have a full shield, angling it down will always cover you.

Chances are the banana is going to touch the edge of the shield anyways and bounce back, this was tested from max range of the toss as well.

EDIT: Just in case tested out Z dropping on top of shield and the banana does bounce once on the shield before falling straight down where you're standing. At this point it does trip you but there's enough time to react.

 

[kj22]

Just tested it with regular banana toss and smash tossing and it never trips Marth. A full shield covers Marth's feet and whenever the banana does hit the shield it bounces up and a small distance away. Even if you don't have a full shield, angling it down will always cover you.

Chances are the banana is going to touch the edge of the shield anyways and bounce back, this was tested from max range of the toss as well.

EDIT: Just in case tested out Z dropping on top of shield and the banana does bounce once on the shield before falling straight down where you're standing. At this point it does trip you but there's enough time to react.

Try with a medium health shield.

 

[LoreLes]

Try with a medium health shield.

Tested it, the edge of the shield still blocks the banana. I even tested 25% shield left and it still bounced the banana back and had the same time to react to it. It's around 15% shield where the banana still gets blocked but lands on you forcing a trip. No reason diddy will ever get your shield that low.

 

[kj22]

thats good to know! thanks btw(: I would do it myself but I don't own a wii u...:/

 

[Shaya]

This is the best character in the game right now...
40:60? Perhaps, at best. It could be 30:70; I believe Sheik may be harder so it's hard to be sure what this number is.

Fair/Bair/Uair/Dtilt/Ftilt all seem to have intangible limbs, and they all out range/speed/disjoint us. Fair is such a challenge to get around, and uair combo breaks reliably and back air is fast enough (two in a short hop) that it can easily frame trap and wall us. He's light enough to get down throw combo'd though, which is pretty helpful (uair/bairs). If you hit him off stage and come out fast enough in a relatively neutral position you can reliably (and should never **** IT UP) have means of gimping him: side b, bair, shieldbreaker, sometimes nair through monkey flip and a side b or a well timed ff fair for the up b = stock. Side-b as an air stall is really helpful, also a good way to avoid automatically grabbing the ledge without holding down (accidental fast fall) to maintain gimp pressure. Dolphin Slash can beat both recovery moves and potentially gimp, but it's risky.

You should be trying to shuffle the uair combos, especially at 0%, if you can avoid the third one you're doing pretty well. Remember that taking a fair by DIing away is a lot more damage than the single uair he'd otherwise get from a certain percent where it doesn't multi combo, the main issue is how hard it is to get down fast and safely because all of this still frame traps and he's faster on the ground and better ranged in the air.

Depending on how competent you can gimp diddy off stage, and get dash grabs before him or on him (all his throws can be good, just diddy uair is broken so spacing and timing is tight) is how well you do in the match up and the maximum reliability to do so constitutes the match up number.

Bananas, dtilt, peanuts and dash grab are all free moves for diddy that gets him free follow ups that could be combo strings or stocks, you're looking at least 20% every time. Aerial hitboxes kill bananas and peanuts, his dtilt and dash grab beat our entire moveset so we have to respect them and roll around (or hard read outspace: shieldbreaker/fsmash, maybe some other things).

 

[kj22]

This is the best character in the game right now...
40:60? Perhaps, at best. It could be 30:70; I believe Sheik may be harder so it's hard to be sure what this number is.

Fair/Bair/Uair/Dtilt/Ftilt all seem to have intangible limbs, and they all out range/speed/disjoint us. Fair is such a challenge to get around, and uair combo breaks reliably and back air is fast enough (two in a short hop) that it can easily frame trap and wall us. He's light enough to get down throw combo'd though, which is pretty helpful (uair/bairs). If you hit him off stage and come out fast enough in a relatively neutral position you can reliably (and should never **** IT UP) have means of gimping him: side b, bair, shieldbreaker, sometimes nair through monkey flip and a side b or a well timed ff fair for the up b = stock. Side-b as an air stall is really helpful, also a good way to avoid automatically grabbing the ledge without holding down (accidental fast fall) to maintain gimp pressure. Dolphin Slash can beat both recovery moves and potentially gimp, but it's risky.

You should be trying to shuffle the uair combos, especially at 0%, if you can avoid the third one you're doing pretty well. Remember that taking a fair by DIing away is a lot more damage than the single uair he'd otherwise get from a certain percent where it doesn't multi combo, the main issue is how hard it is to get down fast and safely because all of this still frame traps and he's faster on the ground and better ranged in the air.

Depending on how competent you can gimp diddy off stage, and get dash grabs before him or on him (all his throws can be good, just diddy uair is broken so spacing and timing is tight) is how well you do in the match up and the maximum reliability to do so constitutes the match up number.

Bananas, dtilt, peanuts and dash grab are all free moves for diddy that gets him free follow ups that could be combo strings or stocks, you're looking at least 20% every time. Aerial hitboxes kill bananas and peanuts, his dtilt and dash grab beat our entire moveset so we have to respect them and roll around (or hard read outspace: shieldbreaker/fsmash, maybe some other things).

So marth can't reliably hit diddy's limbs or is the timing very tight?
Doesn't standing grab beat his dash grab, at the very least pivot grab should.

Playing this mu makes me feel like Marth is moving in slow motion. Everything he does feels sooo slooow compared to diddy.
Perfect mu to practice being defensive in neutral and shutting down approaches. Don't overextend...don't fsmash recklessly. It's not worth the punish that's coming ll

 

[Shaya]

He retracts them quite quickly, you can, but it's very hard not to trade or whiff it.

His grab range is massive, dash grab is massive. Standing grabs are bad in this game :< A standing pivot grab can maybe come out on top on occasion.

 

[kj22]

He retracts them quite quickly, you can, but it's very hard not to trade or whiff it.

His grab range is massive, dash grab is massive. Standing grabs are bad in this game :< A standing pivot grab can maybe come out on top on occasion.

Really standing grabs are garbage? ;/ That hurts...yeah his grab range is dumb now that I remember, I've been grabbed out of short hopos many times...and monkey flip has grabbed me just as I'm leaving the ground as well.

I really wanna test the Marth standing grab vs diddy dash grab though. If marth can grab him first, that's really huge.

 

[Locuan]

Alright so for some reason I thought yesterday was the 18th. That's the reason I updated the thread today... Eh, my apologies. Anyways, this time we head to Hyrule. It seems a wild has appeared! Let's continue the discussion!

As a reminder, everyone is allowed to discuss or ask questions of any other match-up. However, we have these discussion periods in order to keep most of it organized.

 

[Zorai]

I find this to be one of Marth's hardest matchups so far. Villager has an amazing neutral game and his side b is annoying yet safe at the same time...

What are some of the things Marth can do to really shut down Villager? What playstyle is most effective? Please discuss.

 

[Locuan]

I find this to be one of Marth's hardest matchups so far. Villager has an amazing neutral game and his side b is annoying yet safe at the same time...

What are some of the things Marth can do to really shut down Villager? What playstyle is most effective? Please discuss.

Hey there, I moved your post here to the Marth Match-up Discussion Thread. As you can see, this is where we discuss his match-ups. While we have Character Specific match-up discussions for a set time period, we are currently covering Shiek, we encourage questions and discussion of other match-ups here in this thread. Please use this thread for any present or future match-up questions you may have.
Edit: I'll offer my advice against Villager soon. I am currently on vacation so my time is a bit tied up.

 

[Sneether]

Spacing is crucial against Kirby

 

[Shaya]

Spacing is crucial against everybody

 

[Sneether]

Yes, just my experience because my Friend literally only plays Kirby and I have not discovered enough Metagame in For Glory yet

 

[Locuan]

@ Zorai Villager is an interesting Match-up. Every time I see the tree planted + sprout I wait out it's cd. If the villager player takes to staying behind the tree I will not rush Villager down. It's basically a trap where the opponent will have the advantage in most situations. If the villager player decides to stay in front of the tree and use his Lloids + Fair/Bairs, stay out of range of the Fair and Bair projectiles and evade the Lloids. It is not that difficult. Usually, most Villager players resort to this tactic once the tree is up. Not all of them though. In the neutral game Villager players like to use Lloid as a zoning mechanism. There are a few options you have available here:

1. You can shield it.
2. You can jump over it.
3. You can roll.
4. You can spot-dodge.

The opponent will have various answers for each of these:

1. Grab you.
2. Fair/Bair
3. Lloid can hit you if you mistime it or he can dash attack to punish.
4. Grab, dash attack, etc.

In these situations it is good to analyze your opponents patterns with the Lloid usage. That way you can answer with one of the options above that does not correlate to what he/she usually does when the use their Lloid in order to punish you.

I focused a lot on the Lloid usage since it is what stands out the most when I play against Villagers. However, someone else would be better off expanding on this match-up on the other aspects of Villager play.

EDIT: Well, we where not able to cover the Shiek Match-up. We can always discuss it at a later period. Regardless, it's time for the next match-up. We will head to the F-Zero track this time ! Wait, would we use Horses there? Seems like a bad idea.

 

[Trunks159]

Having Trouble Facing ... His camping game is quite annoying. All he does is run around and punish my approaches. Help anyone?

 

[JingleJangleJamil]

Alright, I went over to the Falcon boards and asked for assistance here.

 

[Shaya]

Having Trouble Facing ... His camping game is quite annoying. All he does is run around and punish my approaches. Help anyone?

Utmost patience. The frisby can be hit to kill it, the gunman can be hit if you're coming in at the same time, the extended hit lag from it can often hit DHD.

 

[Locuan]

Adding to what Shaya mentioned, if you can bait the Duck Hunt player to use the clay pigeon at a mid range-ish position against you and you block/dodge successfully, you will be able to punish DH during the end of the animation which lasts quite a bit. Additionally, do not rush in. You will get hit by *insert projectile here* if you are impatient. Try to walk and weave your way around DH's projectiles. Try adding SH air dodges into the mix to approach. If done correctly, Marth/Lucina will not have any landing lag after that action is performed and you will have been able to dodge one or two projectiles while being a bit closer to your opponent.

 

[TKD]

People play Marth? Anyway, Falcon looks like an easy edgeguard for him.

 

[Shaya]

In relation to the Falcon match up, I'd say at the moment it would be fair to put as 50:50. I've had pretty good results against every Falcon I've played here thus far.
It's incredibly easy for us to gimp him. He doesn't seem to have intangible limbs with most of his moves so general spacing + reactive attacks are quite reliable.
All falcon has to get in on Marth is dash grab, playing in and around the corners of stages subsides this a lot and also gels well with us gimping him with back air without even thinking about it.

 

[warionumbah2]

Its pretty even from my experience, the main thing i do is catch them with a down throw into knee to snag that early K.O. Marth and Lucina are the easiest characters to catch in this set up, but i think everyone knows not to let C.Falcon grab you.

As Shaya and TKD said just edge-guard him.

 

[Akira213]

Keeping Falcon out can be frustrating but as has already been stated CF is ripe for edge-guarding. imo 45:55, pretty even match-up

 

[roymustang1990-]

Its pretty even from my experience, the main thing i do is catch them with a down throw into knee to snag that early K.O. Marth and Lucina are the easiest characters to catch in this set up, but i think everyone knows not to let C.Falcon grab you.

As Shaya and TKD said just edge-guard him.

How come they're the easiest? :0

Also,I think better ground game goes to falcon,approach wise.