Marth Match-Up Discussion (Update: ZSS!)

[Locuan]

Alright, thanks for your input guys. We will need more information to determine match-up ratio's etc.

For now though we will focus on the ZSS match-up. Let's get started!

 

[Xisin]

I want to see a few others before i really toss my opinion out there. Here's is something that is 100% though, she has a hard time dealing with shields, quite often you can run in tap shield, then react. her grab comes out slower than most of the cast due to tether, and if she does grab and you spot dodge out of shield you get free whatever. She moves faster than you do but you can also challenge her in the air, she can space quite nicely however.

 

[David Viran]

I want to see a few others before i really toss my opinion out there. Here's is something that is 100% though, she has a hard time dealing with shields, quite often you can run in tap shield, then react. her grab comes out slower than most of the cast due to tether, and if she does grab and you spot dodge out of shield you get free whatever. She moves faster than you do but you can also challenge her in the air, she can space quite nicely however.

Sheild is not fool proof because if the zss player predicts your sheild then she can grab you regardless of reaction time because of the commitment on sheild.

 

[Shaya]

Well, they can still reactively roll or spot dodge, but yeah, reading the shield (like let's say on a landing situation) is often solid.

But I think Marth's issues really are dealing with ZSS mobility; crossing over or moving in and around his range, reliable punishes (on Marth due to his frame data). Unlike in Brawl, Marth cannot edge guard ZSS like he used to (bair doesn't beat everything :<). ZSS tilts are all pretty competitive with Marth's buttons, and unfortunately for Marth as well he is combo fodder and ZSS is exceptional (if not the best in at least damage output).

Marth getting DB back as bread and butter may help the match up a lot. It makes his dashes a lot less of a liability than before.

 

[David Viran]

I was thinking a preemptive mptive grab when reading sheild to take advantage of the 11 frames stuck in sheild and 1 frame of vulnerability on the spot dodge. Her grab comes out faster up close but I don't know by how much.

 

[Shaya]

You're stuck for 11 frames from doing a natural unshield, but you can still do out of shield options (like jump, roll, dodge).

 

[Snailtopus]

Is this the proper thread to ask specific matchup questions irrelevant to the current discussion?

If so, I have serious problems vs Kirby.

Once Kirby gets into Marth's bubble, I just get grabbed and then combo'd hard. I've been hit from 0 to 40, 50, even 60% damage. Any way I try to DI I still get caught. Marth's attacks are too laggy to prevent getting grabbed and to hit myself out of combos. Counter usually isn't quick enough and sometimes gets read and punished. Dolphin Slash whiffs. And if customs are on, Kirby has that ridiculous one that comes out on frame 2 and kills early. Being offstage is a death sentence, and you have to respect Kirby when you're edgegaurding him because of inhale.

Is it a bad matchup for Marth? Is it just ME? Any tips are helpful and appreciated!

 

[BrendanLee]

Alright I had alot of sets with a zss (platinum rank) and talked about this match with them also.

Zss will use her tether to stop you from approaching in the air....and that tether usually combos into a grab if your punished in a short hop. Yea as said above we really are combo fodder. Zss will also be looking to end your stock at high percent with upB oos.

The only advantage I felt I had was applying pressure at the ledge. Since I could cover most of their options with Dtilt, Nair, and F smash (for rolls). UpSmash was also good for punishing their down b from the ledge. There were a few times when they would go for a 2nd Uair and I was able to hit them with my Uair... but that was maybe just luck.

This matchup made me realize I really need a secondary character.

Is this the proper thread to ask specific matchup questions irrelevant to the current discussion?

If so, I have serious problems vs Kirby.

Once Kirby gets into Marth's bubble, I just get grabbed and then combo'd hard. I've been hit from 0 to 40, 50, even 60% damage. Any way I try to DI I still get caught. Marth's attacks are too laggy to prevent getting grabbed and to hit myself out of combos. Counter usually isn't quick enough and sometimes gets read and punished. Dolphin Slash whiffs. And if customs are on, Kirby has that ridiculous one that comes out on frame 2 and kills early. Being offstage is a death sentence, and you have to respect Kirby when you're edgegaurding him because of inhale.

Is it a bad matchup for Marth? Is it just ME? Any tips are helpful and appreciated!

When kirby does his uptilt juggle, I just jump out of it. I use down tilt to shut down kirbys grabs ( be prepared to punish the roll behind you). The down tilt beats out most of his ground options if im not mistaken, and you outspace him in air as well. When recovering try to recover low but not always because it will get predictable and remember to save your jump. When vs Kirby I try not to go too far away from the ledge cause of inhale, but when they are close enough I bait it out then as they try to recover I try to land a punish. If they are on the ledge inhaling I just stay away and punish when they regrab.

Yea I think its in Marths favor because you can keep him out and can kill him early.

 

[Locuan]

We have a new match-up thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-falchions-marth-lucina-match-up-discussion.402246/

Currently discussing Sheik and Luigi:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-falchions-match-up-discussion-week-1-sheik.402251/
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-falchions-match-up-discussion-week-2-luigi.403467/

Feel free to ask any questions on any match-up on the main thread. Additionally, forgot to lock this one my apologies.