Official Mario Enigma Machine [1.1.1] Patch Notes

[Fenrir VII]

Requesting that somebody makes a separate thread about all this once the details are fully understood.
You guys are doing great work with all the data on shield stun and hit lag changes, but it's been a bit hard to follow all this. A final summary of all this would be very helpful

 

[Kurri ★]

So is this patch actually as major as it's being cracked up to be? Will it actually affect character viability and the metagame heavily? If something is changed for everyone, not much ends up being changed overall.

It's pretty major. The game should become a lot more mobile now that shields aren't as reliable. Which may sound like a great thing, especially for those of us who play mobile/zoning characters, but for those who play sluggish/defensive characters not so much.

I like the change, or at least the idea behind it, making the game more mobile is great! But it definitely needs a lot of fixing if it's going to be kept. At the moment heavies are basically screwed if they're up against a competent rushdown/zoner, which they already were in previous patches, just worse now.

 

[Shaya]

Another thing which may go against my formula or go towards their "beta testing" implementation of this, is that this idea of a fresh bonus which due to the 1.05 damage modifier on fresh moves would bump them over the shield stun threshold basically no longer exists.
A 3.5 damage move would have one (don't know many), a 5.2 damage move (non-existent). 7 damage, 12 damage... rather than it being essentially always applicable to any move divisible by 2.5


Sheik safety before.

Sheik | Neutral Air Sweet | [-40,-43] | [-23,-26] | -7
Sheik | Neutral Air Sour | [-17,-40] | [+ 0,-23] | -8 | Fresh Bonus
Sheik | Forward Air | [-25,-27] | [- 3,- 5] | -8 | Fresh Bonus
Sheik | Back Air Sweet | [-28,-30] | [-23,-25] | -9
Sheik | Back Air Sour | [-21,-28] | [-16,-23] | -10 | Fresh Bonus
Sheik | Up Air | [-18,-19] | [-23,-24] | -20
Sheik | Down Air | [-19,-37] | [-19,-37] | -28 | Fresh Bonus
Sheik | Dair Land | [-22,-23] | ~ | -99 | Landing Sync Assumed (+5)

Sheik safety now

Attack Name            Full Action    Auto Cancel    Landing
Neutral Air Sweet    [-36,-39]        [-19,-22]    -3
Neutral Air Sour    [-14,-37]        [3,-20]    -5
Forward Air        [-22,-24]        [0,-2]    -5
Back Air1        [-24,-26]        [-19,-21]    -5
Back Air2        [-18,-25]        [-13,-20]    -7
Up Air             [-14,-15]        [-19,-20]    -16
Down Air1        [-16,-34]        [-16,-34]    -25
Down Air2        [-19,-20]

 

[Big O]

I'm sorry, I'm not fully understanding this. are you saying that, previously, an attack's hitlag modifier didn't affect shields? It was confirmed last patch that attacks with a high shieldlag modifier gave the blocker more lag than the user, which means that they must've been affected. I'd just appreciate a little elaboration on this. Is it a certain kind of modifier, like electricity?

Second, what is the result of powershielding an attack now? You say that shieldstun frames remain... does this mean that there will be an additional 3+ frames during which you'll be trapped in shield? If so, will you still be able to drop as immediately as before?

Third, by "hitlag property", do you mean a projectile with a hitlag modifier? Prepatch, a blocked Charge Shot or Shadow Ball still caused tremendous lag iirc. Was that all purely caused by damage?

Finally, can someone ( Shaya ?) please summarize the changes ZSS' Dsmash has gone through? I tried reading the past couple pages but couldn't grasp what was being said about it.

The point in bold you have backwards. Pre-patch, moves with high hitlag gave the user more lag than the blocker. The shield hitlag of the blocker was just a function of damage. Now blocker and user hitlags are the same.

Powershielding used to not affect shieldstun. Now it does actually reduce shieldstun. How much it reduces shieldstun is not known at this time.

As for your third point, I haven't thoroughly tested projectiles on block so I can't say for sure that the hitlag of projectiles affects shields now. Other people are reporting that it probably does though.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

So HB is buffed in damage, endlag AND projectile speed.

Shaya I can confirm all of this as well. Mega Man's Hyper Bomb Damage increase is 8% -> 10% on direct damage, and 6 ->8 for indirect (splash) damage. Projectile speed is definitely improved for all angles, and when it is thrown as an item.

 

[LRodC]

So a few customs are centered around breaking shields. For example, Meta Knight's Shieldbreaker Drill and Zelda's Phantom Breaker. A previously big flaw with these moves was that an opponent could just drop their shield mid attack and prevent any kind of shield break. With the new shield stun mechanics, however, are those moves guaranteed a shield break/heavy shield damage since opponents can't drop the shield as easily? Can opponents still drop the shield mid-attack? That would be a huge indirect buff to those particular customs if they can't.

 

[Shaya]

Alright, two top tier "winners" from this patch are zero suit and pikachu

Attack | Full Action | Auto Cancel | Landing | Patch Diff
Neutral Air | [-27,-33] | [-19,-25] | -2 | 10
Forward Air 1 | [-34,-35] | [-27,-28] | -11 | 4
Forward Air 2 | [-23,-24] | [-16,-17] | -10 | 4
Back Air | [-21,-22] | [-14,-15] | -2 | 5
Up Air | [-14,-20] | [-7,-13] | -2 | 4
Down Air | [-12,-47] | [4,-31] | -24 | 4
Dair Landing | [-22,-23] | | | -3
Grab Air Sour | [-37,-46] | [-38,-47] | -4 | 6
Grab Air Sweet | [-34,-34] | [-35,-35] | -2 | 7

Attack | Full Action | Auto Cancel | Landing | Patch Diff
Neutral Air Sweet | [-27,-28] | [-25,-26] | -18 | 4
Neutral Air Sour | [-12,-26] | [-10,-24] | -19 | 4
Forward Air Pre | [-14,-28] | [-6,-20] | -12 | 4
Forward Air Final | [-11,-11] | [-3,-3] | -11 | 10
Back Air Pre | [-26,-51] | [-17,-42] | -27 | 3
Back Air Final | [-40,-46] | [-31,-37] | -26 | 6
Bair Landing | [-23,-24] | | | -2
Up Air | [-13,-17] | [-6,-10] | -19 | 4
Down Air | [-12,-24] | [-5,-17] | -31 | 10
Dair Landing | [-24,-25] | | | 7

Attack | Full Action | Auto Cancel | Landing | Patch Diff
Neutral Air Sweet | [-14,-16] | [-22,-24] | 1 | 7
Neutral Air Sour | [-1,-15] | [-9,-23] | -1 | 7
Forward Air Sweet* | [-12,-20] | [-23,-31] | -3 | 11
Forward Air Sour | [-15,-23] | [-26,-34] | -6 | 9
Back Air Sweet | [-21,-22] | [-6,-7] | -1 | 10
Back Air Sour | [-22,-23] | [-7,-8] | -2 | 9
Up Air | [-19,-23] | [-3,-7] | -8 | 7
Down Air Sweet | [-22,-26] | [-11,-15] | -7 | 11
Down Air Sour | [-24,-28] | [-13,-17] | -9 | 9

+10 on zero suit nair and 10 on pikachu's final hit of fair ?
landing hitboxes may be off still.

 

[ENKER]

The Hyper Bomb itself also moves significantly faster.

I tested simultaneously on Wii U and 3DS, and when you throw a Hyper Bomb (neutral/forward direction) on the updated version, it hits the ground while the old version is still like around Mega Man's head height. It's clearly noticeable.

So HB is buffed in damage, endlag AND projectile speed.

I can confirm that. I found the same to be true yesterday afternoon. :D So glad others agree!

 

[WeirdNick]

So they reduced shield push back but made shields have more shield stun? So are shields safer than before because of the reduced push back or are they less safe because of the shield stun?

 

[Thinkaman]

All versions of Zelda Phantom max charge can still be dodged or rolled out of, between the 2 hits.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I have a question, don't know whether it has been asked/answered at all.

We know Lucario's Aura Sphere can trap people in shields due to the shield stun changes. All the examples I have seen have been Lucario on low percent. I was wondering whether if he has more percent (thus, more Aura), would he be able to break shields more quickly?

Additionally, if this it true, would there come a point when it is actually impossible to escape it before your shield breaks? Like say at 100%, would Aura Sphere deal more shield damage to the point that it would be actually impossible to escape before the shield breaks? I have been wondering this since yesterday...

 

[frest123]

All versions of Zelda Phantom max charge can still be dodged or rolled out of, between the 2 hits.

Dang.... I was really hoping that fully charged Phantom Breaker would be a guaranteed shield break.... As for Phantom Striker, could the increased shield stun allow Zelda to follow up on the shield in any way (should the opponent shield both hits)?

 

[komplett knusper]

Bowserboy3
Less shield = less time. So, there is a point where Aura Sphere will definitely break your shield, wether you are mashing or not.

 

[Bedoop]

Some opinions on this update;
1) They did A LOT with customs this patch. This is good.
2) Shields are much weaker now, For Glory just might become a better experience since now much more stuff breaks shields earlier (Kirby's Footstool > Down B, you're gonna go far)
3) Zero Suit got another buff. I'MDONE

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowserboy3
Less shield = less time. So, there is a point where Aura Sphere will definitely break your shield, wether you are mashing or not.

That doesn't answer my question.

What I mean is, if Lucario has more Aura power, will his Aura Sphere do more shield damage, thus having the ability to reduce shields quicker at say 100% than if he was at 0%?

And if this is indeed true, I would like to know for example whether you have a full shield and try to mash out or not, is there a point where it is impossible to escape the shield break because it does more shield damage? I am not the best at explaining myself, but somebody has go to understand me?

 

[Equin0x]

• Hit lag modifiers greater than 1.0 are now safer on shield than before (Marth, Ryu, Roy, etc) dividing the hit lag frames the attacker receives by 1.25 (minimum 1.0) **

Big O did I just misunderstand this somehow? The last few pages of the 1.1.0 thread were all talking about how much safer certain moves with hitlag modifers were on block.

 

[Yikarur]

Do you count the shield stun from the "On-Hit" Frame onward? because my counting seems to be always -1 of the result of the formula because I start counting on the frame after shield hitlag ends.

 

[Eureka]

So last patch moves with a hitlag modifier greater then 1 had their hitlag divided by 1.25 when blocked for calculating self shield lag and this made characters like Roy and Ryu safer on shield. Now that it seems in all cases shield lag is equal to hit lag, does this make moves with higher hit lag modifiers more or less safe compared to last patch? Conversely, if I'm understanding things right moves with a hit lag modifier less then 1 like Marth and Roy's sour spots are now less safe on shield because before shields would treat moves with a hit lag modifier of less then 1 as 1 which they no longer do correct?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Regarding my previous post, let me try and explain myself better...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQcmrKZUzwc


In this video, Lucario is at 0%, and it takes 7 seconds to fully shatter Mewtwo's shield. I was wondering for example, if Lucario had more Aura, would it take less time to shatter the shield, like maybe 5 seconds when Lucario is at 100%?

My next question...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCAh8lX6rTs


If my first question is in fact true, would there become a point where if Lucario has a certain amount of Aura, that it is pointless to try and escape because the Aura Sphere would do too much shield damage before you can escape?

 

[Icare0]

Regarding my previous post, let me try and explain myself better...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQcmrKZUzwc


In this video, Lucario is at 0%, and it takes 7 seconds to fully shatter Mewtwo's shield. I was wondering for example, if Lucario had more Aura, would it take less time to shatter the shield, like maybe 5 seconds when Lucario is at 100%?

My next question...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCAh8lX6rTs


If my first question is in fact true, would there become a point where if Lucario has a certain amount of Aura, that it is pointless to try and escape because the Aura Sphere would do too much shield damage before you can escape?

Who knows. Maybe test this yourself and see what happens. I would test myself, but I'm currently unable to.

Edit: while you are at it, test if reverse aura sphere into upsmash, which is a true combo, is a blockstring. That would also make mashing kinda irrelevant.

 

[John12346]

Sheik safety now

Attack Name            Full Action    Auto Cancel    Landing
Neutral Air Sweet    [-36,-39]        [-19,-22]    -3
Neutral Air Sour    [-14,-37]        [3,-20]    -5
Forward Air        [-22,-24]        [0,-2]    -5
Back Air1        [-24,-26]        [-19,-21]    -5
Back Air2        [-18,-25]        [-13,-20]    -7
Up Air             [-14,-15]        [-19,-20]    -16
Down Air1        [-16,-34]        [-16,-34]    -25
Down Air2        [-19,-20]

Hold up a second, most standing grabs are Frame 6, meaning you can't punish misspaced Sheik aerials with shieldgrabs anymore, correct?

 

[DungeonMaster]

So is this patch actually as major as it's being cracked up to be? Will it actually affect character viability and the metagame heavily? If something is changed for everyone, not much ends up being changed overall.

Both in direct buffs and global properties Samus got a lot this patch. Not all the problems were addressed but definitely this character benefits from these changes in a major way. Properly spaced up-tilt is now fully safe on shield - it used to be a razor thin few pixels now it's generous. D-air lets you land into shields with considerable more confidence. Charge shot can lock you into your shield as it breaks so there's no more surviving with that tiny little bubble, it basically just breaks. Super-missile -> CS at its normal combo range can lock you into your shield, it's a shield break combo. Take 2 big hits (up-tilt... ) on your shield and now CS *will* break it, no guesswork about staleness, etc...
F-smash is now much more safe (not fully safe) but the punish window dropped a LOT.
Shaya All of her basic up-air->up-B and up-air->fair combos and grab based combos got buffed by 1%, you might want to add that to the OP - the effect of the extra hitbox on up-B is an aerial only 1% boost (specifically for combos).
N-air can now be used with much more confidence, I've empirically seen it trade with many other aerials that it just never would have in the past (Mario, fox) and it's deadly offstage because of the angle.
So yeah, Samus got some love this time around. Finally. I would say we need more, but for now cautious optimism reigns.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I think I read this earlier but want to confirm.

Does jumping or grabbing out of shield cancel / reduce the shield stun vs inputting a dodge?

Meaning, are OoS attack options much more important after this patch?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Who knows. Maybe test this yourself and see what happens. I would test myself, but I'm currently unable to.

Edit: while you are at it, test if reverse aura sphere into upsmash, which is a true combo, is a blockstring. That would also make mashing kinda irrelevant.

I will try and test this out myself tonight, but I am out at the moment. If anybody gets chance to try these out before me, please let me know.

 

[RunningColors]

Marth/Lucina now have a harder time breaking shields with Shieldbreaker...

For what purpose was this done? I mean, it's in the name!

Although, I guess it was done in accordance to the increase in shieldlag, so it makes a bit more sense than some random Marth/Lucina nerf.

 

[DunnoBro]

Quick question, doesn't this change make jab1 > jab 2 > grab a more reliable set-up on it's own?

 

[Meru.]

According to some Japanese guy, the shieldstun is as follows:
https://mobile.twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649421520733802496

Formula: damage/1.72 + 2

I dont know how reliable he is, but his tweet has been retweeted a lot and the values looked very sensible to me

edit: shieldstun still seems to be rounded down.

 

[Pablo's Combo's]

Once again, Dr. Mario's buffs still wont make him good...Why cant he just be good Sakurai?

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Oh awesome, the already dominant zoners get indirectly buffed while the near universally low tier slow fighters get indirectly nerfed! Great!

 

[Yikarur]

According to some Japanese guy, the shieldstun is as follows:
https://mobile.twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649421520733802496

Formula: damage/1.72 + 2

I dont know how reliable he is, but his tweet has been retweeted a lot and the values looked very sensible to me

This formula is much more in-line with my results

 

[TriTails]

Marth/Lucina now have a harder time breaking shields with Shieldbreaker...

For what purpose was this done? I mean, it's in the name!

Although, I guess it was done in accordance to the increase in shieldlag, so it makes a bit more sense than some random Marth/Lucina nerf.

The increased hitstun would actually make it much dumber considering you're forced to stay in shield longer while they do like 30 bonus shield damage + 8% or something. That's why it was nerfed. If it hadn't it would've been really stupid considering the range of the move and the mixups.

Besides, this only applies to uncharged ones. Charged IIRC wasn't touched.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Had another question, so I'm going to add it to my previous for tracking these...

Question 1
I think I read this earlier but want to confirm.

Does jumping or grabbing out of shield cancel / reduce the shield stun vs inputting a dodge?

Meaning, are OoS attack options much more important after this patch?

Question 2
Has anybody determined how projectiles are being influenced by all this? I'm trying to determine the impact to Megaman, specifically how much shield stun all of his projectiles are doing.

Landing uair in particular could be very safe on shield if the stun is increased for it. Pellets and Metal blade could also be better...

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

I believe projectiles are affected too.






















...what have they done...

 

[David Viran]

Had another question, so I'm going to add it to my previous for tracking these...

Question 1
I think I read this earlier but want to confirm.

Does jumping or grabbing out of shield cancel / reduce the shield stun vs inputting a dodge?

Meaning, are OoS attack options much more important after this patch?

Question 2
Has anybody determined how projectiles are being influenced by all this? I'm trying to determine the impact to Megaman, specifically how much shield stun all of his projectiles are doing.

Landing uair in particular could be very safe on shield if the stun is increased for it. Pellets and Metal blade could also be better...

For question 1, no jumping and other natural oos options do not cancel or reduce shield stun. They only ignore shield drop frames.

 

[SoniCraft]

Another thing which may go against my formula or go towards their "beta testing" implementation of this, is that this idea of a fresh bonus which due to the 1.05 damage modifier on fresh moves would bump them over the shield stun threshold basically no longer exists.
A 3.5 damage move would have one (don't know many), a 5.2 damage move (non-existent). 7 damage, 12 damage... rather than it being essentially always applicable to any move divisible by 2.5


Sheik safety before.

Sheik | Neutral Air Sweet | [-40,-43] | [-23,-26] | -7
Sheik | Neutral Air Sour | [-17,-40] | [+ 0,-23] | -8 | Fresh Bonus
Sheik | Forward Air | [-25,-27] | [- 3,- 5] | -8 | Fresh Bonus
Sheik | Back Air Sweet | [-28,-30] | [-23,-25] | -9
Sheik | Back Air Sour | [-21,-28] | [-16,-23] | -10 | Fresh Bonus
Sheik | Up Air | [-18,-19] | [-23,-24] | -20
Sheik | Down Air | [-19,-37] | [-19,-37] | -28 | Fresh Bonus
Sheik | Dair Land | [-22,-23] | ~ | -99 | Landing Sync Assumed (+5)

Sheik safety now

Attack Name            Full Action    Auto Cancel    Landing
Neutral Air Sweet    [-36,-39]        [-19,-22]    -3
Neutral Air Sour    [-14,-37]        [3,-20]    -5
Forward Air        [-22,-24]        [0,-2]    -5
Back Air1        [-24,-26]        [-19,-21]    -5
Back Air2        [-18,-25]        [-13,-20]    -7
Up Air             [-14,-15]        [-19,-20]    -16
Down Air1        [-16,-34]        [-16,-34]    -25
Down Air2        [-19,-20]

Frame data scrub here! Could you please explain what all those numbers mean both directly and in context with the game? I find it really confusing, but I'd like to understand what they mean.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Meant to get to this earlier.

Peach Neutral B: Total frames reduced from 64 -> 62 (air and ground)

Bowser N-air: Landing lag reduced from 24 -> 20 (incorrectly noted as 25 frames before in the OP)

Samus F-air: Landing lag reduced from 30 -> 24

Thanks once again to Zapp Branniglenn for finding the initial differences.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Bowser N-air: Landing lag reduced from 24 -> 20 (incorrectly noted as 25 frames before in the OP)

Samus F-air: Landing lag reduced from 30 -> 24

These, though not overly significant to the characters, make me happy, as these two are among my favourite characters in Smash 4 Any Bowser buff is always nice, and hopefully this is the start of a stream of Samus buffs, similar to what happened with Ike... here's hoping!

 

[x45x]

Hold up a second, most standing grabs are Frame 6, meaning you can't punish misspaced Sheik aerials with shieldgrabs anymore, correct?

Remember they still have landing lag and frames of falling so if they don't make the love safer it's punishable. Reasons why Bowser can OOS grounded up b punish a Shiek nair. If she hits mid shield Bowser can punish with jabs throw or up b. So it still depends on where the move hits a shield. Because they still need to land.

 

[Xygonn]

Hold up a second, most standing grabs are Frame 6, meaning you can't punish misspaced Sheik aerials with shieldgrabs anymore, correct?

Samus main here. We couldn't before.

 

[Seniks]

Has anyone finished the FAF frame data for Samus? I haven't seen anyone talk about it since the initial data mining finished. Very curious to see that info./