Official Mario Enigma Machine [1.1.1] Patch Notes

[FallofBrawl]

Pre-patch Lucario had aura sphere to up smash as a combo. Could a Lucario get enough shield damage from the aura sphere that they could break your shield with an up smash before you can successfully DI out?

It takes like 15 some frames for the first hit box to pop out so I don't think so.
As in I don't think this will work out for Lucario, it shouldn't

 

[redcometchar]

What? Training lies?
I always thought that training mode recognizes a true combo when you can get another hit before the hitstun is over.
Is this just for mewtwo or are there other characters that training mode lies about?

The most obvious example is the custom for mii sword fighter that turns you around. Play with that for a while and you will see what we are on about

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Pre-patch Lucario had aura sphere to up smash as a combo. Could a Lucario get enough shield damage from the aura sphere that they could break your shield with an up smash before you can successfully DI out?

That combo is for opponent's located above you when caught in the aura sphere. The Usmash has pitiful horizontal range, so I wouldn't choose this at all if the opponent were about to make a successful escape. You can only cancel aura sphere with OoS options, and you're not facing them. So I think the best choice would be shieldjump to Dair. Or put down shield for Utilt, if they're in range. Neither option is close to being a true combo, but both are difficult to punish, can maybe shield stab, and start combos.

 

[redcometchar]

Ganons up smash is definetly frame positive on shield.
Holy cow

 

[Coro_]

-Pika Dthrow was changed. More knockback and different direction. Dthrow Utilt will no longer work at any %.

According to the update data, there's no change on this front, so...
What character were you trying to do this on?

 

[Krysco]

I can't reproduce this. I even went to Mario Maker omega in case that had something to do with it. Maybe you should try a different controller?

I just tested with Mewtwo on Omega Mario Maker with the Wii U Gamepad and I was unable to replicate it. Perhaps it's a limitation of the Gamecube controller but then the question comes up of why it only affects certain characters? Dah well, seems unrelated to the patch at least.

 

[GP2]

Ganons up smash is definetly frame positive on shield.
Holy cow

Anyone asking me about proof here you go

 

[Skiji]

Okay, I've been playing Luigi instead, because I wanted to see if I could find combos around his TOTALLY UNNECESSARY AND FREAKIN' STUPID nerfs, and this may be placebo talking, but I feel that the sweetspot for D-air has a larger hitbox. I've just been getting them left and right and I'm not sure if it's luck or not. Anyone got a lead on this? (...Yes, I'm very salty that Luigi, of all the high tiers they could have done it to *cough*Sheik,ZSS,Pikachu*cough*, got the nerf hammer.)

 

[Coro_]

Okay, I've been playing Luigi instead, because I wanted to see if I could find combos around his TOTALLY UNNECESSARY AND FREAKIN' STUPID nerfs, and this may be placebo talking, but I feel that the sweetspot for D-air has a larger hitbox. I've just been getting them left and right and I'm not sure if it's luck or not. Anyone got a lead on this? (...Yes, I'm very salty that Luigi, of all the high tiers they could have done it to *cough*Sheik,ZSS,Pikachu*cough*, got the nerf hammer.)

• Down Air spike hitbox size increased 1.8 → 2.5

yep, it's not just you

 

[King Omega]

I just tested with Mewtwo on Omega Mario Maker with the Wii U Gamepad and I was unable to replicate it. Perhaps it's a limitation of the Gamecube controller but then the question comes up of why it only affects certain characters? Dah well, seems unrelated to the patch at least.

I meant try a different Gamecube controller. I was using one as well, so it could just be that one controller of yours.

 

[Methacrylate]

Is that all needles? I was under the impression that it was Penetrating Needles only that got their shield damage reduced.

Dantarion's data does not identify which needles were changed. Though I went back to the 1.0.4 patch data and all the other attributes match that of Penetrating Needles so you are correct. Only Penetrating Needles received the change.

 

[Icare0]

Anyone asking me about proof here you go

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was alrealdy safe on shield before the patch.

 

[Eureka]

Uhh.........

Why would anyone want this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Custom-Mari...irt-and-Hat-/231688927851?hash=item35f1bc7a6b

No offense, but what in the world does that have to do with the 1.1.1 patch?
Is it bad that I kinda want it though?

 

[redcometchar]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was alrealdy safe on shield before the patch.

It was safe before but now you actually have frame advantage. How much i cant tell

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it was alrealdy safe on shield before the patch.

According to this, it was -4, assuming the opponent put down their shield for a punish. And when you're Ganondorf and your fastest move from the ground is a frame 8 jab or frame 7 grab, Having just a few frames of advantage wouldn't make too much difference. Followups would be very iffy against opponents that are not also a Ganondorf.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Can someone provide some visual aid of the new shield stun?

 

[DUKEL]

Can someone provide some visual aid of the new shield stun?

Here's something I pulled off Reddit:

All credit goes to /u/Pinuzzo

 

[NairWizard]

The next thing to look at would be Marth probably.
How is 0.7 hit lag modifiers working, how are his 1.25 hit lag modifiers working?

If shield hit lag is now matching the attacker's hit lag, what does that mean for electric attacks?

Pikachu's autocanceled d-air is 9 frames safer on shield
QA 7 frames safer
d-smash traps in shield
etc.

electric attacks are a lot safer

 

[Icare0]

It was safe before but now you actually have frame advantage. How much i cant tell

Somebody correct my if I'm missing something in my math, because I really don't know for sure if i'm doing this right. It is as good of an opportunity as any to learn about this stuff.

This guide states that Ganon upsmash deals 29% when sweetspotted, and 21% when sourspotted. Using the formula in OP, it means that it's sweetspot has 19.1 shieldstun frames and the sourspot has 14.6 shieldstun frames. Since this framedata sheet states that upsmash last for 41 frames and hits f21, it means that it has 20 frames of endlag.

Now if my math and understanding is right, even if the games rounds the shieldstun up, Ganon Upsmash still is, at best, +0 on shield. And you will never hit a shield with a sweetspot, unless the enemy is above you in a platform, where the upsmash probably wouldn't be punishable anyway.

 

[Vipermoon]

I tested it with Giga Mac's Usmash which does 40%. And tested more Shield Breaker. It seems that shield HP is still 50. Shield Breaker is noticeably weaker. But I need someone to confirm with a better method.

One thing I noticed is that my shield wasn't getting smaller after the extremely long shield stun I was stuck in after Giga Mac's Usmash. It seems like shields don't get weaker (they freeze in hp amount) while in shield stun. I need confirmation I this too.

 

[Nysyr]

The airdodge and backroll change don't line up with what would appear to be the invincibility time, or vulnerability time. Mewtwo's is an easy one to look at for air dodge.

 

[redcometchar]

Somebody correct my if I'm missing something in my math, because I really don't know for sure if i'm doing this right. It is as good of an opportunity as any to learn about this stuff.

This guide states that Ganon upsmash deals 29% when sweetspotted, and 21% when sourspotted. Using the formula in OP, it means that it's sweetspot has 19.1 shieldstun frames and the sourspot has 14.6 shieldstun frames. Since this framedata sheet states that upsmash last for 41 frames and hits f21, it means that it has 20 frames of endlag.

Now if my math and understanding is right, even if the games rounds the shieldstun up, Ganon Upsmash still is, at best, +0 on shield. And you will never hit a shield with a sweetspot, unless the enemy is above you in a platform, where the upsmash probably wouldn't be punishable anyway.

Ganon's upsmash has early iasa frames that i dont see on that chart

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Pikachu's autocanceled d-air is 9 frames safer on shield
QA 7 frames safer
d-smash traps in shield
etc.

electric attacks are a lot safer

Ugh Pikachu...

On the bright side, Robin Thunder/Levin Sword buffs?

 

[Icare0]

Ganon's upsmash has early iasa frames that i dont see on that chart

Found another framedata sheet. It doesn't notes any IASA frames either and confirms 20 frames of endlag.

Also, keep in mind that the sweetspot apparently is in the heel of the boot. You won't be hitting most shields with that due to how high that hitbox is.

 

[aethermaster]

I dunno if this this the right place to ask this and I apologize if this is a dumb question, but does anybody know if the shield stun applies to moves like Fox's lasers? Because I was messing around against a cpu Fox who was using lasers and (unless its a placebo) the shield stun change seemed to apply, but I can't be completely certain. If that's true then HOLY S*** did Fox's lasers get an indirect buff from this.

 

[Shaya]

Hey, I finished scrubbing through each character's (non-custom) moves side by side for changes in endlag/landlag. Only three this time around. And after reading about these changes to shieldstun, I can see why. One major engine change means they can't accurately decide what moves should be quicker to act out of. Regardless, the changes are:

: Neutral B endlag reduced (air and ground versions affected)
: Nair landing lag reduced
: Fair landing lag reduced.

I can provide pre-patch footage. I need somebody else to provide the post-patch to compare to so we can have video evidence.

Okay will add that in momentarily. I think someone said bowser's nair went from 25 frames to 20?

This one is known, someone posted in this thread before too.

From the Peach boards:

Ok

Shaya There's an issue with our interpretation of Wario's Garlic Breath (custom neutral 3). Comparing pre and post patch, the new version clearly has faster startup but more endlag frames. Dantarion's dump only points out the differences in Wario's animation. He leans forward and then back faster in pre-patch, but only now does the hitbox for the move match the animation.

I want to double check this in case our board somehow slacked off/give a confirmation as Mega Man's Hyper Bomb (Neutral 2) seems to have also been buffed from 8% -> 10% (6% -> 8% on indirect hits).

Looking through older data charts (including my own) this seems like something that may have been overlooked during the first run-through of the new data.

Pikachu's autocanceled d-air is 9 frames safer on shield
QA 7 frames safer
d-smash traps in shield
etc.

electric attacks are a lot safer

Okay, this is the next big thing

We're all talking about shield stun, yet it seems hit lag mechanics are altered too...

And if electric hit lag is now normalized with everything else....

Move        DMG    ShieldStun    Mod    Att    Diff    Hit    Dura    Ending    AC Frame    Landing Lag    Full Action    Auto Cancel    Landing
Down Air1    12    4              1     1      -5      14      13    47    39    40    [-22,-34]    [-15,-27]    -41

So for it to be 9 frames safer...

Well electric hit lag is 5 frames (-5 there), so get rid of that
9 frames of shield stun over what should be 4 (maybe it was 5)

So more confirmation needed, but this patch is making pikachu significantly safer, it also bumps zero suit's neutral air into being one of the safest moves in the game.

 

[Jehtt]

Less hit lag on projectiles? Does that mean they are less safe on shield?

 

[Kaladin]

Okay will add that in momentarily. I think someone said bowser's nair went from 25 frames to 20?



Ok







Okay, this is the next big thing

We're all talking about shield stun, yet it seems hit lag mechanics are altered too... projectiles now produce 0 shield hit lag on shield from what hints I'm seeing, if this is right...

And if electric hit lag is now normalized with everything else....

Move        DMG    ShieldStun    Mod    Att    Diff    Hit    Dura    Ending    AC Frame    Landing Lag    Full Action    Auto Cancel    Landing
Down Air1    12    4              1     1      -5      14      13    47    39    40    [-22,-34]    [-15,-27]    -41

So for it to be 9 frames safer...

Well electric hit lag is 5 frames (-5 there), so get rid of that
9 frames of shield stun over what should be 4 (maybe it was 5)

So more confirmation needed, but this patch is making pikachu significantly safer, it also bumps zero suit's neutral air into being one of the safest moves in the game.

Wait, if electric attacks were normalized with everything else, wouldn't that make Pika/ZSS less safe?

 

[Shaya]

Less hit lag on projectiles? Does that mean they are less safe on shield?

Anecdotes: ZSS down smash is 3 frames less safe on shield despite having 4 frames more shield stun.
It seems like shield hit lag is 0 for projectile attacks now?
Or at least transcended priority ones?

Wait, if electric attacks were normalized with everything else, wouldn't that make Pika/ZSS less safe?

No because they're having 5 frames of hit lag that only applied to them being tacked on.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

projectiles now produce 0 shield hit lag on shield from what hints I'm seeing, if this is right...

Not true. From what I've tested so far that only applied to Zero Suit Samus' down smash. All of Link's projectiles and Ryu's hadoken still produce hitlag on shield (though Shakunetsu Hadoken had it removed on the initial hits but traded that for a bunch of hitlag and shieldstun on the final hit).

 

[redcometchar]

Found another framedata sheet. It doesn't notes any IASA frames either and confirms 20 frames of endlag.

Also, keep in mind that the sweetspot apparently is in the heel of the boot. You won't be hitting most shields with that due to how high that hitbox is.

Ok well i am definetly canceling the cooldown of the move with an action, ill see if ican get a video up

 

[Shaya]

Not true. From what I've tested so far that only applied to Zero Suit Samus' down smash. All of Link's projectiles and Ryu's hadoken still produce hitlag on shield (though Shakunetsu Hadoken had it removed on the initial hits but traded that for a bunch of hitlag and shieldstun on the final hit).

Thank god.
Still, ZSS dsmash is a weird anomaly then.

It's considered a projectile, but it's now matching shield hit lag with the receiver as if it was a regular attack. Is that hit lag applying to both shield and on hit?

And if you can get me 100% accurate numbers on Marth's sour spot down tilt and ftilt (or bair/uair), I'd probably know how hit lag has otherwise changed.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

So Buster Shulk N-air spam to be positive on shield drop? Wait wtf is this patch.

I'd be excited but then everyone who was already safe just got safer, and there moves that werent safe are now also safe so fml.
Needles are an even better pressure tool...

 

[Locke 06]

Anecdotes: ZSS down smash is 3 frames less safe on shield despite having 4 frames more shield stun.
It seems like shield hit lag is 0 for projectile attacks now?
Or at least transcended priority ones?

That would explain the lack of shield stun/hitlag on Mega Man's fsmash that I've just seen. Might be worth looking into.

 

[Dcas]

That would explain the lack of shield stun/hitlag on Mega Man's fsmash that I've just seen. Might be worth looking into.

This would be great news for characters that have no answer against spamming missile characters or at least a very hard time dealing with such, such as bowser .

 

[Lavani]

I assume ZSS's dsmash being Stun element is why it has no hitlag.

While we're on the topic of shield hitlag: how do hitlag modifiers come into play on shield now? Does it use the old value from the attacker (attack's modifier) or the defender (defaults to x1.0)?

That would explain the lack of shield stun/hitlag on Mega Man's fsmash that I've just seen. Might be worth looking into.

Well, Megaman's fsmash has x0.3 hitlag, so there is that.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

That would explain the lack of shield stun/hitlag on Mega Man's fsmash that I've just seen.

Well, Megaman's fsmash has x0.3 hitlag, so there is that.

Well with MM's Fsmash, it's a projectile attack. Mega Man doesn't suffer any shieldlag from the move, but the user still will, just very little. I think it's natural that the attack doesn't force very much shieldlag. For ZSS's Dsmash, I don't think there is any hitlag modifier present. Perhaps stun moves have some innate modifier of 0.0, like how electric element attacks are 1.5?

 

[Lavani]

For ZSS's Dsmash, I don't think there is any hitlag modifier present. Perhaps stun moves have some innate modifier of 0.0, like how electric element attacks are 1.5?

That's what I was saying. You're right that her dsmash doesn't have a hitlag modifier, which is what lead me to think that.

Prior to now, the defending character disregarded the hitlag modifier of shielded attacks, so regardless of this projectile theory (has it even been proven?) its 0.3 hitlag modifier should actually come into play now, resulting in less hitlag on block than before.

Which...probably answers my own question from my previous post. If Luma's hitlag modifiers factor in on shield now, Rosalina's numbers on shield are going to be fun.

 

[Big O]

From what I can tell, the defender's shieldhitlag has been normalized to match the hitlag of the attack now. So now Marth sourspot is actually less safe on block than Lucina's blade, a lot of super high hitlag (and electric) attacks are way safer, and a few moves actually became less safe on shield since than pre-patch due to losing the advantage of having little to no self-shieldhitlag (ZSS Dsmash?).

Powershielding actually negates some small amount of shieldstun now. Before the patch, all it did was negate pushback/shield damage and allow attacks during the shield drop animation. How much shieldstun is decreased by powershielding is something I'll have to look into.

Not sure how projectiles come into play with the new shield mechanics, but pre-patch a projectiles hitlag property only mattered on hit and didn't affect the defender's shieldhitlag at all. If somehow the defender's shieldhitlag is now being forced to match the attack's hitlag for all attacks, then projectiles will be safer or less safe depending on how much hitlag the projectile has.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

I tested it with Giga Mac's Usmash which does 40%. And tested more Shield Breaker. It seems that shield HP is still 50. Shield Breaker is noticeably weaker. But I need someone to confirm with a better method.

One thing I noticed is that my shield wasn't getting smaller after the extremely long shield stun I was stuck in after Giga Mac's Usmash. It seems like shields don't get weaker (they freeze in hp amount) while in shield stun. I need confirmation I this too.

Sadly, yeah... Marth's ShieldBreaker was a straight-up nerf, the extra stun frames aren't doing anything to finish breaking a shield.