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Marc Hagen: The Future Of Custom Moves In Smash 4

9Tales

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It sucks that miis have to suffer because of the dumb game design choice the Smash team made.

"Welp, can't play with customs cuz their too hard to unlock, I know! Lets ban the miis from using theirs also because LOL SCREW MII MAINS"
Miis are a little more controversial cause they are by nature custom in every way. Size standards matter as much as move sets...

That said this is kind of a self serving attitude. If the main of any other character has to suffer without their alternative moves why would the Miis not? You could literally replace "Mii" with any individual character who's tool set is enhanced by customs and this sentiment would be equally unequal.

Of course all the characters get customs or none of them do.
 

Phoenix502

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Personally, I think Customs should be legal. They provide an excellent way to keep the meta varied and interesting, and they can greatly increase a character's viability. Like Marc said, characters like Charizard, Mii Brawler, Palutena, and even Ganondorf all greatly benefit from Customs. Honestly, I think them being locked behind a grind-wall is the only thing holding them back. If they had been unlocked from the start, this whole argument of "Customs vs. No Customs" probably never would've happened. If only...
it certainly is a problem when so many options for optimizing a game to our tastes is restricted by random chance... I agree Customs aught to be legal for the sake of making every match feel unique... but I personally think we aught to ask the devs to make it easier to get them.

hell, even if it's something as simple as exchanging information, or god help us all, SOMEONE makes the unpopular decision to put a price tag on unlocking them all...

PERSONALLY, I'd like to simply have the Special Orders mode have some tilt in its RNG to the player's preference. it's easy enough to pile on items through it, so perhaps modify Crazy Orders' RNG to favor certain items the farther you get, weak items up to ten rounds, Custom Specials at around 11-20, a preference towards Custom specials at 21-25, and the really rare effects, good and bad, at beyond 26... Master Orders could be set to recognize what you have in your inventory, so getting the last few specials won't be an issue, and you no longer get what you already unlocked.
 
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anaglyphix

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I really can't stand the reasoning that custom moves shouldn't be allowed because they take too much time to get. By that logic, breeding for flawless Pokémon should be banned because it's boring and it takes up time not everyone is willing to give.
Ok, but everyone uses their own system in pokemon battles. Smash 4, on the other hand, requires all of that grinding on a single system for just one battle. considering even most local tournies use 6+ consoles, that would mean tons of hours of grinding, repeated for every single console used for tournaments in order for customs to really be fair and legal. Most TOs just don't want to invest that kind of time into unlocking all that content, and if you're going to make the turbo controller argument, the money either. And inb4 "just bring your custom char on your 3ds, transfer it before the match" that adds too much cumulative time to the already unbelievably long tournaments that it makes the entire event near impractical.
 

anaglyphix

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Miis are a little more controversial cause they are by nature custom in every way. Size standards matter as much as move sets...

That said this is kind of a self serving attitude. If the main of any other character has to suffer without their alternative moves why would the Miis not? You could literally replace "Mii" with any individual character who's tool set is enhanced by customs and this sentiment would be equally unequal.

Of course all the characters get customs or none of them do.
The real controversy with Miis is that in no way can you call 1111, 2222, or 3333 standard movesets, because the miis were created with no specific combinations in mind. Therefore, restricting a mii to just one moveset that makes it less viable than pichu is a big problem. A good solution would be to go to the mii boards, and ask which moveset is best suited for each mii, then make those the standards for tournaments. 1 character, 1 organic moveset.

EDIT: Just did what i just suggested. Let the Standard Mii Fighter Project begin.
 
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Dokokashira

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Smash 4, on the other hand, requires all of that grinding on a single system for just one battle. considering even most local tournies use 6+ consoles, that would mean tons of hours of grinding, repeated for every single console used for tournaments in order for customs to really be fair and legal. Most TOs just don't want to invest that kind of time into unlocking all that content
I have to admit, that's a really great point. I actually didn't think about that at all!
 

anaglyphix

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I have to admit, that's a really great point. I actually didn't think about that at all!
If we were all still playing on n3ds, it would be less of a problem, since you're the only one working for your ideal character/moveset. sadly, that's not the case.
 

TheWhiteStallion

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I would love to hope that there would someday be an update that would unlock all the custom moves at the start but sadly I don't think that's ever going to happen. Think about it from a casual point of view. All this grinding for customs adds to the replay ability giving a casual a cool little side thing to go for on top of the many game modes and challenges smash bro's offers on top the of the INSANE replay ability the core gameplay offers. (I used to play brawl 4 player FFA with items for 2 years until I got into competitive smash). But from a competitive standpoint its a HUGE chore. I mean come on 375 moves with no super easy fast way to unlock them all? No competitive player wants to deal with that much less a TO.

I'm love playing with customs and I'm not one who's bothered by the grind but looking at the big picture... It's just not practical since it seems the majority doesn't want to put up with that. I mean a compromise I could see would be paid DLC to unlock them all but I don't know if that goes against Sakurai's design philosophy.
 

fromundaman

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I find it funny that a European author didn't mention the international divide that customs create.

Japan in general does not like playing with customs, but quite a few of them practiced them just for EVO.

Europe does not like customs from what I have seen. I asked people in France and the tournament attending smashers were almost unanimous in hating them, and quite a few of their higher level players listed customs as the reason they were NOT trying to go to EVO this year.

Based on the few tournament videos I have seen, Canada and Mexico seem to play mainly without customs as well.


Basically if we are to adopt customs, not only will we remain divided here in the USA on this subject, but we are also alienating ourselves from the rest of the world by adopting a ruleset that no one else wants to play with.
 

erico9001

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Grr, this isn't a fresh perspective, just the same BS more drawn out.

--'We don't want a split opinion, so let's just do what I say!'

If you don't want a split in the community, you legalize customs. The customs meta includes the non-customs meta. Look, the majority of us WANT CUSTOMS!

--'Characters with good customs still didn't do good at EVO. It doesn't balance things!'

Their characters are probably easier, and the people with customs (like palutena) probably have not had as much practice yet.

If you think it's too daunting to figure out customs, you're only short-term thinking. Think of all the moves you already know for every character. You know a ton! 6, similar moves, are not going to be hard to learn.

Also, what customs allow you to do is to even out specific Match-ups. For instance, I can put on Shulk's dash vision to even out Mega Man, who is otherwise a pretty hard match-up. This sort of thing prevents me from being taken out by just some Mega Man, which improves m chances, while not necessarily meaning I am using a higher tier character.

--'It's too hard. My 3ds method took too much time and limited people!'

You're not supposed to load the customs onto the Wii U's when the event is supposed to start. You're supposed to do it before hand. Also, you're supposed to leave 2 slots open so that people may use their own customs if necessary.

Again, this is short-term thinking. Over time, the need to load customs onto Wii U's will be rarer, since you only need to load customs onto a Wii U ONCE, and Wii U's get re-used. In addition, more and more people come to have all customs. Just a reminder: You only need one person to have all customs!

PEOPLE! We need to think! Especially the leaders! I mean, look at this:
You're thinking about it the wrong way. The accessibility argument is taking into account new players and people who want to join the game. If someone wants to join a community for a fighting game it should be quick. If customs are on, a new person will have to not only unlock all characters and stages but all 8 custom moves for nearly 50 characters leading to 400 moves then they have to learn which sets are allowed and which ones are not and no one wants to join a community if it's that big of a hassle to join. Melee became successful because it was easy to unlock all that you needed then you just get into it.
I'm participating in the customs meta. I only have Shulk's customs and Villager's. You only need your main's customs. I mean, this is obvious stuff here! I'm starting to think everybody against customs just hasn't used them!
 

DarkKyanite

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wait, so what's the difference between his point and other ppl's point? most ppl whom r against custom moves says the same thing b4 i was born.
 

Unknownkid

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So... why don't we allow Palutena and Mii Fighters Alternative Specials since they are unlocked from the start?

Don't say because it is unfair. How is it unfair if "no one" wants to "grind" for custom moves? This TO obviously said that unlocking customs were the problem.
 

9Tales

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The real controversy with Miis is that in no way can you call 1111, 2222, or 3333 standard movesets, because the miis were created with no specific combinations in mind. Therefore, restricting a mii to just one moveset that makes it less viable than pichu is a big problem. A good solution would be to go to the mii boards, and ask which moveset is best suited for each mii, then make those the standards for tournaments. 1 character, 1 organic moveset.

EDIT: Just did what i just suggested. Let the Standard Mii Fighter Project begin.
I mean... if 1111 is standard on everyone else you'd think it would be for Miis too.
 

anaglyphix

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I mean... if 1111 is standard on everyone else you'd think it would be for Miis too.
that "..." is your downfall. Try playing as all 3 mii fighters on 1111 and then tell me whether or not you think those movesets feel like a fleshed out character.
 

anaglyphix

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So... why don't we allow Palutena and Mii Fighters Alternative Specials since they are unlocked from the start?

Don't say because it is unfair. How is it unfair if "no one" wants to "grind" for custom moves? This TO obviously said that unlocking customs were the problem.
Because custom moves aren't balanced during patches. besides, with palutena her default moveset is her default moveset for a reason, that's what the dev team thought best represented her character.
 

HalcyonDays

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The way I see it, Smash 4 has two metagames.

1. No Customs
2. With Customs

I'm really interested in seeing how the metagames for both of these scenarios turns out.

If it isn't completely unreasonable, why not have the first few years of Smash 4 be with customs off?

Then once the customs-off metagame has settled somewhat, then you can turn customs-on and explore the metagame in a new direction?

It'd add longevity to the game, and we'd get to see two meta-games develop from one game.
 

-LzR-

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The logistical issue is not even an issue because importing sets from a 3ds doesn't take too long and it only has to be done once and you are good. You only need 1 3ds with the customs to have an infinite amount of WiiU setups. It's more troublesome to go around unlocking stages and buying DLC than getting the customs so there goes that argument.

Now 90% of customs are super simple and require absolutely no special knowledge to deal with. Fox has a laser that has hitstun? Cool, now you know what to do, no need to spend 15 hours a day figuring it out.
You got "randomed" out by some unknown custom in a tournament and lose? You also tend to lose when you face a certain MU for the first time, again, irrelevant, git gud.
DK spam custom upB? Learn to ****ing deal with instead of crying about it like the 8 year old nintendo fanboy you are. We have always done that and in a year people will laugh how we thought the move was OP (looking at you 3ds Bowser).

Customs are the main attraction of this game, they are what makes this game a different and new smash. Without customs you are just playing a very shallow and barebones Brawl with more characters.

Oh how ashamed I am of myself for being a smasher sometimes, being part of a community like this...
 

Unknownkid

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Because custom moves aren't balanced during patches. besides, with palutena her default moveset is her default moveset for a reason, that's what the dev team thought best represented her character.
But they are.
 

Wavebird

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Ill never understand how everyone is so keen on allowing DLC characters to be tournament legal yet, when it comes to customs they give it the blind eye

either they give the excuse of "only if they were unlocked by default" or the "META talk"

I feel like some of these guys would be against it even if they were unlocked from the start

Being pro customs is weird it's like it encompasses the regular and more, so for me it's a no-brainer but people against them make it seem like they're so difficult to adopt

First year at evo the community made a poll with 10 customs for every character I'm still kinda salty about some megaman sets but either way it was fun debating (not to mention theres plenty of research that was done)

and you can look at the forums and see which customs are being debated aka OP and stuff

About the META it's gonna revolve around the low to mid level players I think Zero and the top placers are to strong at this point for it to change so quickly, kinda how duckhunt, little mac, and lucario theories flew out the window(ey maybe one day right)

that's just my two cents if anything people should get on removing Halberd from the stage list (I mean really:4wendy:)
 
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Gawain

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After seeingthem in tournaments a few times now, I really think they ought to be left behind. I don't see them bringing much interesting to the table. The really good ones are overbearing and gimmicky for the most part, it's not really interesting.
 

-LzR-

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After seeingthem in tournaments a few times now, I really think they ought to be left behind. I don't see them bringing much interesting to the table. The really good ones are overbearing and gimmicky for the most part, it's not really interesting.
Them being interesting or gimmicky has absolutely no place in this discussion. We don't cut parts of the game just because they are not interesting.
 

Espy Rose

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Joke's on the North. Skyloft is still legal in the parts of Texas that matter. :3 :applejack:
 
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Dinoman96

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Because custom moves aren't balanced during patches. besides, with palutena her default moveset is her default moveset for a reason, that's what the dev team thought best represented her character.
They gave her those moves because they're supposed to be generic on purpose. A reflector, a projeticle, a teleport, and a counter. By making all of her more interesting specials customs, they probably figured that would encourage people to get creative with the game's customization feature and improve her on their own.
 

Big-Cat

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But when you don't have all of the characters, you don't have the complete package. You have to unlock pieces of the meta game. Pokemon does exactly that.

And most fighting games actually do have some form of grinding in them. As an example, a lot of the modern Tekken games have customisable clothing and accessories that you need to grind money to buy. Some of these have moves attached to them that you can only use with those accessories equipped, and some of them are quite useful.
I can't think of any of the item moves in Tekken to have any practical value. They're way too slow to be of value.

Speaking of grinding in a fighting game, imagine if you had to grind for the variations in MKX. You think anyone would want to allow those in tournaments if you had to unlock them?
 

90007000

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Custom Moves have been a heavily debated topic post Evo 2015 all across the Smash community. Many people have varying opinions on the matter and it seems an answer everyone can agree to is still not something we have. When debating and discussing difficult topics it is always hearing from everywhere and everyone to try and develop an answer.

Marc Hagen (@Marc) is an editor and writer for Smash Europe, a "portal for the competitive European Smash Bros. community", as well as one of the main TOs of the Avalon tournament series. He sat down and wrote an editorial to discuss his own feelings and provide a unique perspective from a European Smash player. A preview can be found below.

---​

Besides stock count, the most hotly debated topic in the international Smash 4 scene is the inclusion of custom moves. Although most TOs decided against them due to the poor logistics involved, the controversial decision to have them legal at EVO inspired several regions to practice with them and renewed the debate since. The core question I ask myself is whether the costs of having custom moves legal are worth it, considering the practical implementation, the case study of EVO and a potential split of the community. All things considered, I would prefer to move forward with a metagame without customs.

A world of possibilities… at a price
Customs are interesting in that they are a rare example of the competitive Smash scene turning on a setting that is off by default, rather than the usual limiting or customizing of default settings. They open up a great many moveset configurations, several of which affect specific match-ups or even impact the metagame somewhat. Turning them on or off can even affect character viability, prime examples being Charizard, Palutena and Mii Brawler. Although Smash 4 generally has no shortage of character diversity and several top tiers have great customs of their own, opening up new possibilities for tournament play is the biggest draw to legalizing customs.

I believe that customs would have been a staple of competitive Smash 4 if every character had their entire moveset unlocked from the start. They were common during the short tenure of the 3DS version, as every player could be held responsible for his own save file and they were seemingly quicker to unlock than on the Wii U version. It took me personally about a month of grinding on train rides to and from work to get every custom move in the game, which is not that long if the game is to survive for several years. It’s obviously much less work if you only focus on characters you actually use, which is a viable route for the 3DS, where you are on your own save file at all times.

That said, it still baffles me that the decision was made to lock such a fundamental part of gameplay behind several layers of grinding. A poor game design choice, not in the last part because you can get duplicates and are thus never guaranteed a new move even if you get a custom drop for your preferred character. This results in the unfortunate fact that you can hardly expect the average Wii U save file at a tournament to have every move in the game, which goes against the principle of uniform tournament settings and is the crux of the issue.

The most feasible solution to have custom moves at tournaments is to distribute pre-made common movesets from the 3DS version, which takes up costly tournament time, limits people to popular configurations and doesn’t negate the fact that many people don’t have access to them during practice. While you could tell players to grind it out, this is unheard of for a fighting game. Most TOs do not provide all of the set-ups for their events and this, in addition to DLC, would make it even harder to give players everything the ruleset entitles them to.

Considering that customs likely would have been a staple if unlocked by default, barring potentially broken moves, I believe the debate to be a question of “is it worth the hassle to include them under these circumstances?”, rather than a question of “should they be legal from a theoretical point of view?”.

---​

He goes on to discuss how these played out on the Evo main stage, other concerns, and gives a final conclusion. What were his final thoughts? Be sure to head over to Smash Europe and read the full article here to find out.

SmashCapps hopes people take time to read the entire article and that the discussion on custom moves can manage to be a healthy discussion. To get his own feelings on custom moves go follow him on Twitter.
Really? Omni literally said the same thing.
 

ChikoLad

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I can't think of any of the item moves in Tekken to have any practical value. They're way too slow to be of value.

Speaking of grinding in a fighting game, imagine if you had to grind for the variations in MKX. You think anyone would want to allow those in tournaments if you had to unlock them?
As far as I'm concerned, if you're dedicated to the game, a bit of grinding should be nothing.

Most players who are serious about competitive play will likely be playing it for years to come. The time it takes to get all customs is a footnote in comparison to that, even less if you go through the 3DS version for actually unlocking them.

I just find "I don't want to grind" a poor excuse to ban them. It's just as bad as "I don't want to learn the Sheik MU, ban her/nerf her instead".

I feel this generation of Smash players are impeccably lazy and just want everything handed to them. Customs should have been available from the get go, I can agree with that, but the fact is they aren't. It's annoying, but it's no excuse to ban them.

I realise there are other issues with customs. Grinding should not be one of them.
 
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Alter Requiem

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The way I see it, Smash 4 has two metagames.

1. No Customs
2. With Customs

I'm really interested in seeing how the metagames for both of these scenarios turns out.

If it isn't completely unreasonable, why not have the first few years of Smash 4 be with customs off?

Then once the customs-off metagame has settled somewhat, then you can turn customs-on and explore the metagame in a new direction?

It'd add longevity to the game, and we'd get to see two meta-games develop from one game.

1=Sheik meta wow magnificent
2=a chance at something we havent seen before

I know what i choose
 

ChikoLad

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1=Sheik meta wow magnificent
2=a chance at something we havent seen before

I know what i choose
Sheik is gonna be pretty heavily used either way. She has good customs herself. In fact, as a Rosalina main, I can safely say that Rosalina's already dominating match up spread gets even more so with customs on. Her default down special is useless in match ups where projectiles are not involved, but her customs allow her to switch for something better in those match ups.

The top tiers and high tiers don't change much with customs on, they still dominate. Other characters just get a little better.
 

S4GEX

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Customs should be off for competitive play. People shouldn't have to rely on gimmicks. Vanilla sm4sh or melee here I gooooo
 

Shellfire

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and some of them are quite useful.
No they aren't, all item moves are pretty much either really bad, outclassed by something already in the character's moveset, or only provide use under extremely rare circumstances. A good chunk them are like "60 frame windup, 24 damage, -40 frames On hit" They are typically just there for comedic purposes or as an aesthetic complement to the rest of the character's moves. These things are like Jigglypuff Sing at 0% bad.
 
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ChikoLad

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No they aren't, all item moves are pretty much either really bad, outclassed by something already in the character's moveset, or only provide use under extremely rare circumstances. A good chunk them are like "60 frame windup, 24 damage, -40 frames On hit" They are typically just there for comedic purposes or as an aesthetic complement to the rest of the character's moves. These things are like Jigglypuff Sing at 0% bad.
I've found use for some of them actually, generally for the end of a juggle.

Maybe people just gave up on them too fast.

Like they are doing with custom moves in Smash.
 
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T0MMY

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I interrupt this string of usual custom rules vs standard rules to remind everyone the point of the article was to acknowledge the worth of bringing customs into the field of competition.
Is it worth it?

This is the point at hand because it stresses the important factor of competitive value: Is the change in rules beneficial?

With all the issues surrounding bringing customs into the Competitive Field I would have to judge my opinion leaning toward: No.

The promise of providing "balance", "depth" and "variety" that the pro-custom side promised us failed
at its testing-grounds, Evo, with a non-custom Diddy vs non-custom Sheik topping it off in grand finals.

Evo was the testing ground and it ostensibly failed to deliver what was promised.

It was given a chance, maybe a little to early, maybe not the best place, but TO's as well as players alike are not favoring the rule shift all across the nation (from my interactions at Evo).
But at least it was given its chance.

Perhaps years down the line when the standard rules of competition may grow stale we will have the option to incorporate customs - a later slow-integration would give people plenty of time to have all of them unlocked on their console as well as get familiar with them - but rushing right into them so early at Evo has definitely hurt its momentum; yet after playing in Evo, and multiple smaller events which force-fed them on people, I probably wouldn't notice if they were forgotten about entirely.
 

TAL

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I think is ******** that the Mii´s customs get banned because of this (they are unlocked from the beggining)
 

Crasher

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I really can't stand the reasoning that custom moves shouldn't be allowed because they take too much time to get. By that logic, breeding for flawless Pokémon should be banned because it's boring and it takes up time not everyone is willing to give.
First off the logistics of having customs on is worse for the WiiU because it's up to the TO to get numerous Wiius with all customs unlocked and not the players who would normally be the ones grinding. Secondly speaking as someone who plays in pokemon tournaments and breeds their own team unlocking all of the custom moves in smash and breeding perfect pokemon are not the same thing. Unlocking every custom takes about a month of grinding but it usually takes no more than a week to get an entire pokemon team together from scratch once you know what you want.
 
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