Marc Hagen: The Future Of Custom Moves In Smash 4

[LiteralGrill]

Custom Moves have been a heavily debated topic post Evo 2015 all across the Smash community. Many people have varying opinions on the matter and it seems an answer everyone can agree to is still not something we have. When debating and discussing difficult topics it is always hearing from everywhere and everyone to try and develop an answer.

Marc Hagen (@Marc) is an editor and writer for Smash Europe, a "portal for the competitive European Smash Bros. community", as well as one of the main TOs of the Avalon tournament series. He sat down and wrote an editorial to discuss his own feelings and provide a unique perspective from a European Smash player. A preview can be found below.

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Besides stock count, the most hotly debated topic in the international Smash 4 scene is the inclusion of custom moves. Although most TOs decided against them due to the poor logistics involved, the controversial decision to have them legal at EVO inspired several regions to practice with them and renewed the debate since. The core question I ask myself is whether the costs of having custom moves legal are worth it, considering the practical implementation, the case study of EVO and a potential split of the community. All things considered, I would prefer to move forward with a metagame without customs.

A world of possibilities… at a price
Customs are interesting in that they are a rare example of the competitive Smash scene turning on a setting that is off by default, rather than the usual limiting or customizing of default settings. They open up a great many moveset configurations, several of which affect specific match-ups or even impact the metagame somewhat. Turning them on or off can even affect character viability, prime examples being Charizard, Palutena and Mii Brawler. Although Smash 4 generally has no shortage of character diversity and several top tiers have great customs of their own, opening up new possibilities for tournament play is the biggest draw to legalizing customs.

I believe that customs would have been a staple of competitive Smash 4 if every character had their entire moveset unlocked from the start. They were common during the short tenure of the 3DS version, as every player could be held responsible for his own save file and they were seemingly quicker to unlock than on the Wii U version. It took me personally about a month of grinding on train rides to and from work to get every custom move in the game, which is not that long if the game is to survive for several years. It’s obviously much less work if you only focus on characters you actually use, which is a viable route for the 3DS, where you are on your own save file at all times.

That said, it still baffles me that the decision was made to lock such a fundamental part of gameplay behind several layers of grinding. A poor game design choice, not in the last part because you can get duplicates and are thus never guaranteed a new move even if you get a custom drop for your preferred character. This results in the unfortunate fact that you can hardly expect the average Wii U save file at a tournament to have every move in the game, which goes against the principle of uniform tournament settings and is the crux of the issue.

The most feasible solution to have custom moves at tournaments is to distribute pre-made common movesets from the 3DS version, which takes up costly tournament time, limits people to popular configurations and doesn’t negate the fact that many people don’t have access to them during practice. While you could tell players to grind it out, this is unheard of for a fighting game. Most TOs do not provide all of the set-ups for their events and this, in addition to DLC, would make it even harder to give players everything the ruleset entitles them to.

Considering that customs likely would have been a staple if unlocked by default, barring potentially broken moves, I believe the debate to be a question of “is it worth the hassle to include them under these circumstances?”, rather than a question of “should they be legal from a theoretical point of view?”.

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He goes on to discuss how these played out on the Evo main stage, other concerns, and gives a final conclusion. What were his final thoughts? Be sure to head over to Smash Europe and read the full article here to find out.

SmashCapps hopes people take time to read the entire article and that the discussion on custom moves can manage to be a healthy discussion. To get his own feelings on custom moves go follow him on Twitter.

 

[Curlz]

First?
Yay!

 

[MLGF]

Implying that the hassle is the only reason customs suck

 

[Djent]

Turning customs off doesn't limit / viability. Our decision to restrict them to using a single moveset in spite of what the game menu allows does.

Also, I am rather tired of accessibility arguments, as how much logistical BS people are willing to tolerate varies a lot from person to person, even community to community. Many TOs already strongly dislike having to deal with unlockable characters and DLC. It's really a question of degrees of difficulty, which makes it hard to determine apart from scene/organizer preference.

That being said, customs-off is still a perfectly respectable way to play the game, especially since people have given them a chance.

 

[Shirma Akayaku]

If there was ever an update that had custom moves unlocked and allowed players to select custom moves straight from the character select screen, then custom moves would pretty much be universal. Unfortunately, that's not the case and the idea of an update like that is ludicrous.

I've been thinking about custom moves in the sense of how many characters does it benefit and how well they benefit well from it... and to be honest, I feel like it's not that many. I'd be very sad to see custom moves go, but if they do, it's understandable for several reasons.

Besides, even if custom moves aren't legal in the future anymore, something we can look forward to is patches and how they affect characters. Who knows? Maybe it could fix problems low-tier character have. I'm doubtful of that though.

 

[BuTTNutz]

Customs? Oh boy!

-Keitaro 2015

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Interesting points made. I'm honestly indifferent about the whole thing by this point and I've found characters to adapt for both metas.

It is worth noting, though, that two of the three characters he mentioned that benefit the most, palutena and mii brawler, don't require the custom grind, and as noted by @ Djent , miis are different animals entirely, as they have access to all their moves even with customs off.

 

[U-Throw]

Personally, I think Customs should be legal. They provide an excellent way to keep the meta varied and interesting, and they can greatly increase a character's viability. Like Marc said, characters like Charizard, Mii Brawler, Palutena, and even Ganondorf all greatly benefit from Customs. Honestly, I think them being locked behind a grind-wall is the only thing holding them back. If they had been unlocked from the start, this whole argument of "Customs vs. No Customs" probably never would've happened. If only...

 

[MOI-ARI]

How long do i leave my popcorn in the microwave?

 

[Jigglymaster]

It sucks that miis have to suffer because of the dumb game design choice the Smash team made.

"Welp, can't play with customs cuz their too hard to unlock, I know! Lets ban the miis from using theirs also because LOL SCREW MII MAINS"

 

[Infinite901]

Implying that the hassle is the only reason customs suck

Except it is

 

[Dokokashira]

I really can't stand the reasoning that custom moves shouldn't be allowed because they take too much time to get. By that logic, breeding for flawless Pokémon should be banned because it's boring and it takes up time not everyone is willing to give.

 

[TreK]

I was so hyped for custom moves... But they really did screw it up and ruin the opportunity. I'm hopeful we'll see a Project M - like mod for Smash 4 which will revolve around character customization at its core and will have everything unlocked from the start. But as far as I'm concerned, I think people are more likely to play Smash 4 without customs.

 

[Pixel_]

Except it is

People also argue that it makes some characters too viable and others less viable.

 

[ChikoLad]

Leave it to the discretion of tourney organisers on a case by case basis.

Is that really such a hard concept for people to understand?

 

[ephOE]

It would be nice is there were customs that weren't so polarizing (read: spammable).

Subtle customs are nice but there is no way that Dongnado will ever be healthy for Smash 4.

 

[Maximum Leech]

Leave it to the discretion of tourney organisers on a case by case basis.

Is that really such a hard concept for people to understand?

This creates divisions across the community and the meta game, and it would inevitably lead to alot of butthurt people when they travel to another TO's tourney where their character is no longer viable or they "got gimmicked by n00b custom DK up-B wow ban pls"

 

[ChikoLad]

This creates divisions across the community and the meta game, and it would inevitably lead to alot of butthurt people when they travel to another TO's tourney where their character is no longer viable or "get gimmicked by n00b custom DK up-B wow ban pls"

There wouldn't be a problem if there was just complete clarity from TOs on whether or not the tournament is customs on/off from the get go. People simply do or don't enter based on that.

And I really don't think customs are an "entirely new meta game". Only four moves are changeable in a move pool of about 40 per character, and many customs are simply just "fast, weak version and slow, strong version".

 

[Opossum]

I really can't stand the reasoning that custom moves shouldn't be allowed because they take too much time to get. By that logic, breeding for flawless Pokémon should be banned because it's boring and it takes up time not everyone is willing to give.

Just giving my input, but that argument is flawed in the sense that they're two entirely different games. Pokemon's an RPG. Grinding is expected. Unlocking all these different attacks in a fighting game isn't a core, expected feature. It breaks the flow.



That being said, I have a neutral stance on customs. I just think this is a flawed comparison.

 

[Christian Anderson]

Just giving my input, but that argument is flawed in the sense that they're two entirely different games. Pokemon's an RPG. Grinding is expected. Unlocking all these different attacks in a fighting game isn't a core, expected feature. It breaks the flow.



That being said, I have a neutral stance on customs. I just think this is a flawed comparison.

Have you ever played marvel 2 on the dreamcast? it's a grind just to unlock all the CHARACTERS.

 

[PootisKonga]

People also argue that it makes some characters too viable

I'm sorry what
There's no such thing as too viable, unless you mean OP which is a separate concept from viability

 

[Opossum]

Have you ever played marvel 2 on the dreamcast? it's a grind just to unlock all the CHARACTERS.

MVC2 has 56 characters.

There are 376 custom moves you need to unlock in Smash 4.

But that's beside the point. My point was that comparing this to EV training and IV breeding in Pokemon is flawed.

 

[ChikoLad]

Just giving my input, but that argument is flawed in the sense that they're two entirely different games. Pokemon's an RPG. Grinding is expected. Unlocking all these different attacks in a fighting game isn't a core, expected feature. It breaks the flow.



That being said, I have a neutral stance on customs. I just think this is a flawed comparison.

Couldn't one argue that training with a particular character in training mode or whatever is grinding in and of itself?

Grinding is generally defined as doing something in a video game that may benefit you later, but you will make no immediate progress in doing so, and you're just stuck in limbo.

Not saying Smash should have made customs something you need to grind for, but Smash fans should be well used to grinding now between competitive play, and grinding for trophies, stickers, and CDs in past games. Heck, past games required grinding to unlock entire characters (this game does to, but not as much), some of which became pretty big players. People are acting like grinding is this new thing in Smash when it's been there pretty heavily since Melee.

 

[Opossum]

Couldn't one argue that training with a particular character in training mode or whatever is grinding in and of itself?

Grinding is generally defined as doing something in a video game that may benefit you later, but you will make no immediate progress in doing so, and you're just stuck in limbo.

Not saying Smash should have made customs something you need to grind for, but Smash fans should be well used to grinding now between competitive play, and grinding for trophies, stickers, and CDs in past games. Heck, past games required grinding to unlock entire characters (this game does to, but not as much), some of which became pretty big players. People are acting like grinding is this new thing in Smash when it's been there pretty heavily since Melee.

There's the thing though. Pokemon's an RPG, grinding's basically required. Fighting games generally don't lock away moves, just characters. As in, when you get the character, you get the complete package. That's not the case with customs and creates a barrier unfamiliar to the genre. Then there's also the case of how many customs there are to unlock compared to characters...

Pokemon's a flawed comparison, and I say that as someone who's completely neutral on customs. Game A =/= Game B. I have my own opinion on customs, but that didn't factor into what I said.

 

[Glutten]

Please just stop trying to force customs on the rest of us and give them a rest
They're bad to competitive gameplay and most pros agree the game is better without them

 

[ChikoLad]

There's the thing though. Pokemon's an RPG, grinding's basically required. Fighting games generally don't lock away moves, just characters. As in, when you get the character, you get the complete package. That's not the case with customs and creates a barrier unfamiliar to the genre. Then there's also the case of how many customs there are to unlock compared to characters...

Pokemon's a flawed comparison, and I say that as someone who's completely neutral on customs. Game A =/= Game B. I have my own opinion on customs, but that didn't factor into what I said.

But when you don't have all of the characters, you don't have the complete package. You have to unlock pieces of the meta game. Pokemon does exactly that.

And most fighting games actually do have some form of grinding in them. As an example, a lot of the modern Tekken games have customisable clothing and accessories that you need to grind money to buy. Some of these have moves attached to them that you can only use with those accessories equipped, and some of them are quite useful.

 

[NOKAUBURE]

Saw one thread time ago about a skill item that halves landing lag. They said it would be cool to increase the pace of the match or something. But the idea got dropped because of grinding (the correct equipment to have 0/0/0 stats with the skill) pretty much the same as this.

In my opinion it would be funny to allow customs if the grinding problem is solved (maybe when savegame modification comes in the wiiU).

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

But when you don't have all of the characters, you don't have the complete package. You have to unlock pieces of the meta game. Pokemon does exactly that.

And most fighting games actually do have some form of grinding in them. As an example, a lot of the modern Tekken games have customisable clothing and accessories that you need to grind money to buy. Some of these have moves attached to them that you can only use with those accessories equipped, and some of them are quite useful.

Actually that brings up another interesting point, since unless I'm mistaken Evo disallowed importing costumes for street fighter. I assume it was the same with tekken over the years?

 

[KirbydaBear]

@ ChikoLad :

Another difference between the smash 4 customs and other unlockables, which may have been mentioned above, is that you're never guaranteed to get a new custom move. E.g. If you have 375 and are looking for the last 1, you could "unlock" 20 or 30 custom moves which you already have, before obtaining that last one. ..

 

[ChikoLad]

Actually that brings up another interesting point, since unless I'm mistaken Evo disallowed importing costumes for street fighter. I assume it was the same with tekken over the years?

I think item moves were banned in Tekken, though I could be wrong, and it could have been a case by case basis. I wouldn't know exactly why they decided to ban them if they did.

Regardless though, how other fighting games treat custom elements shouldn't effect how Smash looks at it, since it's a very different game.

I just don't find grinding an acceptable excuse to ban them. Especially if it's just because "people didn't expect to have to do it".

@ ChikoLad :

Another difference between the smash 4 customs and other unlockables, which may have been mentioned above, is that you're never guaranteed to get a new custom move. E.g. If you have 375 and are looking for the last 1, you could "unlock" 20 or 30 custom moves which you already have, before obtaining that last one. ..

Trophies and stickers say hi.

They may not effect competitive play, but that's irrelevant - people are saying they don't expect to grind in Smash, but it's been a thing since Melee.

 

[Reila]

Just giving my input, but that argument is flawed in the sense that they're two entirely different games. Pokemon's an RPG. Grinding is expected. Unlocking all these different attacks in a fighting game isn't a core, expected feature. It breaks the flow.



That being said, I have a neutral stance on customs. I just think this is a flawed comparison.

Just wanted to say that grinding is expected in bad/poorly developed RPGs. The great ones do not require any grinding whatsoever.

 

[byebye]

Looks at EVO top 8.
Yeah, customs are fine to stay.

 

[ChikoLad]

Just wanted to say that grinding is expected in bad/poorly developed RPGs. The great ones do not require any grinding whatsoever.

Grinding in RPGs doesn't reflect the quality of the game unless it's an obnoxious amount and it is required.

A lot of the time, grinding comes down to subjectivity. If you don't have the skill or right strategies to beat a certain boss, you will feel the need to grind. For example, games like Kingdom Hearts are certainly easier if you do a bit of grinding, but you can beat them at lower levels and without grinding. The Final Mix versions of the games even provide you with the "EXP Zero" skill on Proud/Critical Mode, which basically means you don't gain EXP as long as it's equipped. Equip it at the very start of the game, and you can play through the games at Level 1. It will be a lot harder, but it's possible, as the games have a battle system that rewards skill.

In the context we are talking about Pokémon though, we aren't talking about grinding to beat a boss or whatever. We are more talking about breeding a Pokémon team that you want to enter into real life tournaments. You need to grind to customise your Pokémon exactly how you want them to be, because the game can't know what you want from your Pokémon team in a competitive setting.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

You need to grind to customise your Pokémon exactly how you want them to be, because the game can't know what you want from your Pokémon team in a competitive setting.

Bringing up Pokemon, while not exactly one to one, does provide us with another option. Why not have the Wii u meta be customs off and the 3ds meta be customs on?

Barring the elephant in the room of controls (how hard is it to do that gcn controller mod?), the article mentioned it made customs a lot easier because everyone was responsible for their own set. Also it would keep the 3ds version from completely dying competitively. A lot more people have 3DSes over Wii Us (and as a substitute teacher I can tell you there are a LOT of students playing the 3ds version locally) so if we want to expand, we need to take that into consideration.

 

[ChikoLad]

Bringing up Pokemon, while not exactly one to one, does provide us with another option. Why not have the Wii u meta be customs off and the 3ds meta be customs on?

Barring the elephant in the room of controls (how hard is it to do that gcn controller mod?), the article mentioned it made customs a lot easier because everyone was responsible for their own set. Also it would keep the 3ds version from completely dying competitively. A lot more people have 3DSes over Wii Us (and as a substitute teacher I can tell you there are a LOT of students playing the 3ds version locally) so if we want to expand, we need to take that into consideration.

It's a very valid point you bring up and something we can consider if people really don't want customs on Wii U, but right now, I generally just think customs should be allowed on Wii U too, and I think that's what most people are fighting for. It's not just the controls that are a factor. Wii U has a better stage list for competitive play, so it's more ideal to have that be the hub.

It is a very interesting thought though - one of the biggest arguments custom detractors have is that customs is "a whole new meta". While I don't quite agree with that being the case, if people really can't shake that idea, then relegating that "second meta" to what is technically a different game and different system, and therefore a different investment, would be a good way of doing it.

 

[Solutionme]

It would be nice is there were customs that weren't so polarizing (read: spammable).

Subtle customs are nice but there is no way that Dongnado will ever be healthy for Smash 4.

Pretty much, but you have to accept the fact it gets rid of DK's biggest weakness, which is a good landing option, outside of many other weaknesses it covers. But people should think about it more like this, we should allow customs until we feel that the normal moveset of each character is viable enough after enough patches that we won't need them anymore, outside of banning certain ones and just allowing certain ones to be the standard on characters if the perfect balance doesn't occur. Just imo the best way to handle it, since it means less unlocking and better balancing at the end of the day no matter how you look at it.

 

[Da Loc]

I went to 3 different venues that had customs on for their tournament and every to still didn't want to upload the evo sets on my wiiU

 

[Gavi1195]

It's a very difficult situation indeed. The custom meta can offer many possibilities, but do to the fact that you need a good amount of dedication and luck to obtain the customs, limits it's potential. I think that what Sakurai could do is that in the Tournament mode that's coming in 2 days. Every custom move can be used for each character and make an update that during training, you can use each of the custom moves. However, if such a compromise can't be achieved, then the only thing I can think of is to go with a "No Customs" Meta with the only exception being the Mii (which already have all of the options available from the start. Not only that, the strength of all 3 Mii's highly depends on the moves chosen, which is the gimmick that the Mii characters possess).

 

[~Burst~]

How is this even up for discussion?
We have characters who do not have customs and more are going to be added. This communities rule set is so illogical for no reason.

 

[TheCandyman]

I really can't stand the reasoning that custom moves shouldn't be allowed because they take too much time to get. By that logic, breeding for flawless Pokémon should be banned because it's boring and it takes up time not everyone is willing to give.

You're thinking about it the wrong way. The accessibility argument is taking into account new players and people who want to join the game. If someone wants to join a community for a fighting game it should be quick. If customs are on, a new person will have to not only unlock all characters and stages but all 8 custom moves for nearly 50 characters leading to 400 moves then they have to learn which sets are allowed and which ones are not and no one wants to join a community if it's that big of a hassle to join. Melee became successful because it was easy to unlock all that you needed then you just get into it.