Data Mah0ne's Stuff about Puff

[idea]

i can write up some stuff after december 8th. until then, bull**** essays to work on.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I hope to learn a lot about Peach/Puff from both sides, cause that MU is weird. Thanks, Mahone.

 

[hot$]

puff is awesome. pink puff balls ftw

 

[King5280]

peach/puff is an even weirder team to play against.
got ***** by it at the big house..
cough*idea/riddlebox
kinda weird cause i was a peach main but ive recently switched to puff lol

 

[idea]

lol our team must be incredibly frustrating to play against

peach is annoying. puff is annoying. both are often more annoying in teams. and they're on the SAME team.

 

[King5280]

too much float power to handle.
lol and worst part was it was my first tourney/first match, teaming with some random guy who played samus. we got wrecked. floatiest match of all time though.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

you can't always rest that oos the fox basically has to misspace it. also, i don't think it's possible to wavedash oos to punish it ever, everyone always spot dodges first. (i should really just start waiting for the spot dodge )

Yeah that is something I have trouble against with my friend's fox. He always spot dodges when I come in to punish lag and I just can't get myself to wait and anticipate the spot dodge even though I know he's gonna do it.

Anyway, regarding fox's well-spaced versus mis-spaced usmash: Something I noticed Tekk do against Leffen's fox which I am sure other puffs have done as well (but this was the first time I ever realized how awesome it could be) is DI his shield toward fox and up when he expected an usmash. The first thing I thought when I saw this done is that it is a great way to make sure he doesn't poke your shield especially if its low (duh) BUT as I started to incorporate it into my game and get some clutch rests OOS I began to feel like DIing your shield into the usmash can cause the shield stun to begin a couple frames earlier, making it end a couple frames sooner, giving you more frames to punish. So if a fox spaces an usmash well and you shield DI as far into the usmash as you can (so essentially he is usmashing deep into your shield) it may still be possible to get that rest OOS assuming you are good at knowing the shield stun timing???
IS THIS LOGICAL?

Also, @IDEA
How do you and riddlebox operate on teams? Have any tips? Cause my teammate is a peach who rarely grabs (cutting down on my rest opportunities). Do you guys stay close? Me and my partner always both go for the same offstage gimp cause we're both so used to going offstage and it usually ends badly.

 

[ShroudedOne]

The shield spacing makes logical sense. The earlier an attack hits a shield, the earlier the shield stun activates, and the earlier it fades. So theoretically, I think it makes sense (think of an early aerial on shield vs a late one)

Whether or not this is practical, I have no idea.

 

[King5280]

@IDEA[/SIZE]
How do you and riddlebox operate on teams? Have any tips? Cause my teammate is a peach who rarely grabs (cutting down on my rest opportunities). Do you guys stay close? Me and my partner always both go for the same offstage gimp cause we're both so used to going offstage and it usually ends badly.

they got plenty of grabs against us lol.

and does puff's f-tilt hitbox go out as far as the little circle around her goes? i feel like it wouldnt be a bad edge guard if you tilted it down against chars like ganon or falcon cause itd push out right in front of the ledge sweetspot.

Also is there any real value to uairing out of shield? it comes out a few frames slower than nair but i feel like itd lead to much better combos.

 

[Tekk]

I'm going to try to write something about the falcon matchup, good stuff Mahone!

 

[idea]

Also is there any real value to uairing out of shield? it comes out a few frames slower than nair but i feel like itd lead to much better combos.

yeah. you can catch them out of their jump early, or occasionally just hit them on the ground. and it's pretty safe, as long as you don't get hit before the upair comes out, meaning don't do this very much against someone with really solid shield pressure.

Yeah that is something I have trouble against with my friend's fox. He always spot dodges when I come in to punish lag and I just can't get myself to wait and anticipate the spot dodge even though I know he's gonna do it.

Also, @IDEA
How do you and riddlebox operate on teams? Have any tips? Cause my teammate is a peach who rarely grabs (cutting down on my rest opportunities). Do you guys stay close? Me and my partner always both go for the same offstage gimp cause we're both so used to going offstage and it usually ends badly.

honestly though, when i wd oos and try to grab a fox after upsmash, i'm being greedy. i could have hit him with fair or bair instead, and just float past him even if he spotdodged those, which he probably wouldn't have had time to do. or maybe upair, but that would require mindgamez.

in your case if he's spotdodging all the time you should just force yourself to wait for it. and you don't necessarily have to see it coming, a lot of people delay their moves occasionally just to get a feel for when people spotdodge or when they wait in shield or whatever. i see m2k's sheik do this a lot. he doesn't always KNOW that fair will hit 2 seconds from now, some of the time he's just waiting it out to see.

as for teams...lol, it's funny, in terms of mindset we're pretty incompatible. he's always like "okay, i think we should try to stay close, and i'm going to do this, and if i light shield then you can do this..." and i'm always like "WHATEVER i'll just wing it." which probably explains why i'm super inconsistent in teams

things we tend to agree on are "kyle," (that's me), "stop approaching him, he's just waiting for you." or "okay, so we'll double team the fox."

sometimes we both try to finish off a kill. that can end badly. i think i've rested him by accident this way more than once, and one time he upaired the spot where i was going so i could rest on a platform, and i didn't get to rest, and the upair killed me that's just practice, though. it's more personal than strategic. if a rest punish/techchase is obviously the best choice, i just go for it...otherwise i try to watch and see what he's trying to do. i guess the rule of thumb is, whoever's closer to the character should kill them.

oh yeah, for grab rest specifically. we could probably be doing that more, lol. but i should also be staying close to him more to make that work. but i never rest when he grabs facing away from me. that would involve jumping past him and resting the person on his other side, which is just too easy to mess up, and gives them more time to wiggle out of the grab. if he grabs facing me then i can run over and jump straight up to rest, which i almost never screw up.

on the other hand, one time i did a techchase rest just as he grabbed, so we got rest > grab > grab pummel woke me up > rest again. so ****.

 

[Mahone]

Thanks tekk... Looking forward to it


Also, about upmash on shield, ive been thinking... You should be able to shield sdi in and rest oos even if they space it... I havent tried it out yet but it should work in theory right?

 

[boomrested]

Am I the only one who finds rollout useful? I like using it when I'm either on final destination and they have nowhere to go. Also, If they're ledgestalling and I'm ahead, it puts them in a difficult situation when they're faced with death if they land on the stage, and they can't just stay on the ledge or they get timed out.

 

[Mahone]

Last time a puff tried to rollout against me was like a year ago and i rested him out of it lol

 

[FoxLisk]

ive gotten two rollout hard predict kills in friendlies in the past month or so

i think both times we had traded hits and i went high and was drifting down and they were getting up from ledge and i hard predicted them to do something fast and foolish to try to get under me so I just rolled out.

 

[Mahone]

Yo, are you in blacksburg? I'm moving back soon, when are you leaving?

 

[FoxLisk]

Yo, are you in blacksburg? I'm moving back soon, when are you leaving?

I'll be leaving probably Sunday, I'm just visiting. So unless you're coming back this weekend I probably wont see you

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

Also, about upmash on shield, ive been thinking... You should be able to shield sdi in and rest oos even if they space it... I havent tried it out yet but it should work in theory right?

Yeah I mean the only way to make sure you can get OOS faster is to make sure you drop the shield stun frames faster, so while it'll still help to shield DI your shield into the usmash, you really need to have your shield toward them already when the hitbox first comes out to have the maximal time to rest oos.

 

[Keblerelf]

How does jigglypuff remove options/add pressure to the opponent? The more I play her, the more I feel I'm relying on the person to make mistakes so that I can punish. This makes it seem that I have to be really good at reading the opponent instead of forcing them into situations that give me an advantage.

I'm going to use fox as an example (because my friend just showed me the business a couple weeks ago). Whenever I fight against fox, i feel like I can never keep him in one spot. Sure I can advance on him as he dash dances and kind of corner him near the edge, but unless I predict when the player is going to move, he can just run under me as I'm spacing moves to get back into the middle of the stage. In the neutral position, I feel like all my damage output relies on him running into my moves or not spacing well; if he happens to be on point, I cant see him getting hit.

I briefly talked to umbreonmow about this and he said the way jigglypuff removes options is through the threat of rest and edgeguarding and that her strengths are negating control from her opponent, but she lacks any sort of pressure game. What I got from him was that puff is passive aggressive, and my best bet to have some sort of control is to cover as much space as I can with my aerials and by floating around so that I can create the threat of pressure, which seems to describe hbox's playstyle from what I observed.

Can you guys offer any insight on the matter?

 

[-LzR-]

Crouching instantly removes a lot of options.
Also, you can do a lot of wellspaced bairs on their shield to condition them to shield, then quickly crossup and grab them. Puff is really good at this stuff.

 

[idea]

How does jigglypuff remove options/add pressure to the opponent? The more I play her, the more I feel I'm relying on the person to make mistakes so that I can punish. This makes it seem that I have to be really good at reading the opponent instead of forcing them into situations that give me an advantage.

I'm going to use fox as an example (because my friend just showed me the business a couple weeks ago). Whenever I fight against fox, i feel like I can never keep him in one spot. Sure I can advance on him as he dash dances and kind of corner him near the edge, but unless I predict when the player is going to move, he can just run under me as I'm spacing moves to get back into the middle of the stage. In the neutral position, I feel like all my damage output relies on him running into my moves or not spacing well; if he happens to be on point, I cant see him getting hit.

I briefly talked to umbreonmow about this and he said the way jigglypuff removes options is through the threat of rest and edgeguarding and that her strengths are negating control from her opponent, but she lacks any sort of pressure game. What I got from him was that puff is passive aggressive, and my best bet to have some sort of control is to cover as much space as I can with my aerials and by floating around so that I can create the threat of pressure, which seems to describe hbox's playstyle from what I observed.

Can you guys offer any insight on the matter?

ahh that's so general...hungrybox is probably the best puff for pressure, watch a lot of his videos. if he's not bairing your shield he's bairing the place where you would have to jump to get away from the bair on your shield you were expecting. puff is good at that. like yeah, you can't catch up to spacies, but you can limit their movement a lot of the time.

jigglypuff can't really shield pressure, but she can position pressure, which is basically what you said about forcing fox toward the edge. that counts as pressure too.

also try varying aerial timing. if you always rising bair it's easy to avoid, if you always ff late bair it's easy to avoid, if you do both it's harder to deal with.

no you don't always have to use bair, fair is really good too and underrated, bair is just what i imagined when i was writing this

even more generally, try to be as fast as possible. you need all the speed you can get. like if you don't already, practice doing that late aerial to wavedash away thing, you need to be able to do that on a moment's notice.

 

[Krynxe]

To expand on this, what do you do about a good, fast player that completely out pressures you but is also great at not getting grabbed? Like for instance, sometimes when I play impatient foxes I can get very easy uthrow rests and whatnot, but when I'm playing a really good fox that knows how to fight puff I find myself helpless, they're just always in my face and I can't get any space or time to get control and going to grabs leads me to get punished more. Sorry if this is a bit too broad.

 

[Republican0fHeaven]

good fox that knows how to fight puff I find myself helpless, they're just always in my face and I can't get any space or time to get control and going to grabs leads me to get punished more.QUOTE]

Just a general thought, but it seems like you just need to play them more and more til your game gets faster and your mind starts processing what to do in certain situations against the fox more quickly.

Gotta be able to wavedash to position yourself flawlessly and at any moment. Cause a lot of the time when a fox predicts you'll be in shield he can go for a grab. But if you throw your shield up and immediately wd backwards oos as he goes for a grab... then you have a grab opportunity or an fsmash opportunity.

But I know what you mean, against good foxes it feels like its hard to get control of the game. But playing them more gets you used to that style and speed of play. One hard prediction can be a stock against a player thats alot better than you.

ALSO quick question, how do you rest falcon out of his dthrow? I know he has to mis-space the knee, but is there an optimal way to di the throw/the tumble after the throw? I've never messed around with it and figured it'd be better to ask someone that knows more about it.

 

[crush]

I like rollout when im in the air sometimes

 

[ShroudedOne]

What do you guys think about the Falco MU in particular? I've been starting to think that Falco wins (although most people will probably settle for even). It just feels like he is so good at locking her down, and tilts/bairs are really effective for stuffing her pressure.

 

[idea]

To expand on this, what do you do about a good, fast player that completely out pressures you but is also great at not getting grabbed? Like for instance, sometimes when I play impatient foxes I can get very easy uthrow rests and whatnot, but when I'm playing a really good fox that knows how to fight puff I find myself helpless, they're just always in my face and I can't get any space or time to get control and going to grabs leads me to get punished more. Sorry if this is a bit too broad.

that's a pretty general question too...you just have to stay one step ahead of them. against foxes that are like, not that campy, and good in general, and know the matchup, i find there's not much i can do from a neutral position besides throw out safe aerials with really good spacing. really good spacing = if they run or jump at me they get hit, if they don't run at me it's hard to punish me. essentially you are camping safe aerials as close to them as you can. i hate it. stupid fox.

also for this i find fair to be better than bair a lot of the time 'cause it stays out longer. i use bair more for...soft predictions, i guess you could say. where it's more like an educated guess. since it's slightly more precise in its timing.

also, wavedashing is very important vs. fast, technical foxes. you just need all the speed you can get and wavedashing is pretty fast. plus it lets you move while still being able to CC and/or grab, which is always good, and you can't do that in the air.

honestly i don't understand people who play melee and don't wavedash, it's like the most fun single input thingy in the game. it's the thing i miss most whenever i try to play brawl.

ALSO quick question, how do you rest falcon out of his dthrow? I know he has to mis-space the knee, but is there an optimal way to di the throw/the tumble after the throw? I've never messed around with it and figured it'd be better to ask someone that knows more about it.

you guys bring this up way too much like you need any more help getting rests on falcon. (also i really don't know 'cause i always forget about this)

 

[Krynxe]

Just a general thought, but it seems like you just need to play them more and more til your game gets faster and your mind starts processing what to do in certain situations against the fox more quickly.

Yeah, figured this too. I haven't been in the smash scene very long (about 3 months now) and because I'm still in high school I can't really get any friendlies between the monthly tournaments I go to. I don't have very much time clocked into playing against good players, but I really wish I could because solo practicing puff is ridiculously stupid.

I like rollout when im in the air sometimes

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/18909762
@0:49:18

Also, that's my first recorded match. The set starts at 0:47:18, all that's there of me is that doubles set. (Losers brackets, losing 2-0; partner being high on weed johns lol...) Again I'm pretty new haha, so if you decide to watch my set you'll see that I'm pretty garbage. This is only doubles though, I did waaay better in singles. Also, after watching my set I really need to figure out getting back to the platform safely. I'm so predictable, I keep getting baired and uaired. ;-;

And thanks for the input Idea/RoH

 

[idea]

try doing this: short hop fast fall bair spaced as far away as possible on someone's shield, then wavedash back away immediately. just get used to doing that, it'll come in handy.

 

[-LzR-]

I never actually thought about Wavedashing after landing with aerials >_>
That sounds amazing, especially since my things is autocanceled nairs. I could so bait grabs with that WD.

 

[Blistering Speed]

What do you guys think about the Falco MU in particular? I've been starting to think that Falco wins (although most people will probably settle for even). It just feels like he is so good at locking her down, and tilts/bairs are really effective for stuffing her pressure.

I think it's probably Falco's worst MU.

 

[idea]

I think it's probably Falco's worst MU.

not sheik or marth?

 

[Bing]

... Yeah I'd say Sheik is Falco's worst MU, Falco is generally Combo food to Sheik, Atleast Falco can laser Marth to keep him at bay, mind you, Marth can get around that.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah Sheik ***** Falco it's like 80-20 Sheik favour

Lasers. nair, combos, and edgeguarding are all worthless against Sheik

 

[Blistering Speed]

not sheik or marth?

Nope, Puff IMO. It's ~even anyway, but I could see a REALLY SLIGHT Puff advantage too.

 

[King5280]

I think its pretty even, maybe a little towards falco. falco is hard as **** to box in and hes so in your face even when he's not that cause hes gay.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Falco's stupid. He's a bird AND a pilot and the ****er still can't fly, what a tool.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah Sheik ***** Falco it's like 80-20 Sheik favour

Lasers. nair, combos, and edgeguarding are all worthless against Sheik

<3 KK

I actually like fighting Sheik as Falco, cause he rules her body on-stage.

==

But I don't feel like Puff can deal with lasers as well as her jumps might indicate. And she kinda moves slowly when she's just hopping over towards you, and I think Falco can react to that. She can still box him in when she gets to him, but I think Falco is good at not letting that happen...I dunno. Just random thoughts on my part...

 

[King5280]

Falco's stupid. He's a bird AND a pilot and the ****er still can't fly, what a tool.

but in his defense he has a gun. and its gay.

 

[Bing]

Falco's gun can only be effective if the player uses it correctly, yeah you can fire lasers all day but if they're just fired aimlessly then guess what? Puff can still get in and **** easily.

 

[Mahone]

I think puff probably beats falco, but its pretty close to even.

One of the big problems for falco is that he can't really kill... like if you just di his upthrow behind him at kill percents he can't get that stupid upthrow upair, and without that all his kills have to be bairs at like 150% and sometimes a lucky dair to dair combo...

Ya lasers seem annoying, but i think no one really tries to innovate and beat them... i recently started working on powershielding them, taking them and fairing immediately, taking them and wavelanding back, and smashdiing them, but I'm sorta done with smash now so i never really got to try them out, but the point is that there is a lot of potential for making lasers less effective.

Also, since I MAHONED mango twice at ROM4 and it worked... i have decided to tell all you guys so you can **** all falco/fox players...

Basically when you backthrow a fox/falco off the stage and you predict they are going to jump back, normally you jump with them and then bair/nair to hit their illusion, or you wait if you predict they are going to jump back up-b, but what you can do instead is dair... which will cover all of the side-b heights from your head to your toes (the dair hitbox is **** for this and covers ALOT vertically) and then you can just do some aerials on their forced up-bs to finish them off....

but the real beauty of it is that if they decide to up-b, often times you can react and move the dair into their up-b, so it covers most of their options...

I don't know if i explained it well, but just try it in friendlies and you'll see how **** it is