Q&A Lucina Question and Answer Thread

[Saki-]

Haven't given up, no plans on swapping mains until I've gotten better as a player. At my level my losses aren't because of my main but how I play the game, and inability to fix my exploits. Though I haven't seen a tournament since September due to heavy workload on school and military. I'd say ditto on Toucan's recommendation of going to the Marth boards, but it's been slow lately too (I blame school and Shaya-sama's absence). As far as matchup stuff goes, until I fight people who have a good grasp on their character, I feel it'd be pretty pointless for me to throw input in.

 

[AUnique]

IMO Lucina does not have any MU's Superior to Marth's, does that mean she has no advantages at all? No i wouldn't say that however overall she has less tools as even Marth's sourspot attacks can lead into more strings, and Tipper is safer on Shield overall especially in 1.1.1.

Well, her having no advatages at all seems like pushin it to me. I'm not implying she does better, but that some things may play out differently, for good or for bad. I often think, doesn't Lucina at least do a little better in moments where tippers are extremely hard to land? (In disadvantage for example, or when in need of a quick punish)
Idk, on paper it seems Lucina ought to have something in which she isn't completely outclassed by Marth, that, or flawed character design.
She definitely falls behind anyways... perhaps I'm just overthinking it.


Thanks, Nika! Great overall view on the matchup, it really helps a whole bunch. Apologies for the question bombing; what is Sheik's main approach tool aside from Grab?

 

[Codaption]

I'll repeat what I said before about Marcina matchups against faster characters. A fighter that can run rings around Marth's sword range is going to be pretty much impossible to tipper consistently, so in those kinds of situations Lucina would likely be the better pick imo.

 

[Nika]

I agree with both of the above. Marth is a slightly better character in general, but there are definitely kills that Lucina gets but Marth doesn't. People who say there's literally no situation where she's better are just wrong IMO.

Thanks, Nika! Great overall view on the matchup, it really helps a whole bunch. Apologies for the question bombing; what is Sheik's main approach tool aside from Grab?

No problem! It's the Q&A thread after all

It's fair, for sure. Her fair is one of the best moves in the game. It actually outranges ours for some reason, it autocancels (hence her fair trains - don't take her to flat stages, or stages with runoffs!), it has ludicrous frame data... HOWEVER if she spaces it incorrectly, I'm pretty sure you can shieldgrab it. I could be wrong about that, if she autocancels into jab she might still have frame advantage - would need to test it. At least, I've done the shieldgrab many times, I'm just not sure if the Sheik could have stopped it by jabbing. It works against less experienced Sheiks though if nothing else. Make sure you don't try to shieldgrab if she lands out of range, she'll punish you every time.

I guess her other main approach is needle into follow-up? What sucks about the needles is that even a single needle will pop you up and she can throw them super quick, so you pretty much always need to be wary. Again, proper spacing is the best defense.

 

[AUnique]

Yeah, I'm a former Mario main; it has become general knowledge at their boards Sheik's spaced Fair is impossible to shieldgrab, unspaced being punishable. Maybe Lucina can reach her with DTilt or something, seems plausible.

Actually, Sheik's Fair has 35 FAF, autocancel frame 11>, active hitbox frames 6-7 and can be Fast Falled without lag. I think, if Fast Falled, it can be punished with OoS Dolphin Slash. Shieldstun might mess it up though. Or the move not having enough range...

So, once I somehow manage to get Sheik in the air, how should I look to keep the advantage?

 

[Nika]

Hmm I don't have a great answer for that honestly, I guess I usually just try to swat them around with fairs and bairs. (I rarely use uair except in combos, fair/bair are usually the better option due to lower endlag.) You could also go for mixups with aerial DB - covers air dodge and deals more %, but it's harder to protect yourself since you're giving up more control over your movement. If she's on a platform directly above you, utilt and nair are both great for providing pressure.

I don't think Dolphin Slash oos would hit a perfectly spaced Sheik fair on shield, but I'm not sure. Probably if you perfect shield? In general though I use Dolphin Slash a lot, it's amazing for escaping combos and providing quick, surprising punishes. It is pretty risky, but if you use it enough your reflexes will get better and you'll have a better idea when to use it and when not.

 

[AUnique]

Okay, thanks for your time! Only thing left is practice then...

 

[BoxedOccaBerrys]

I have trouble with killing with lucina, what are her best killing moves? I find myself spamming side smashes when possible...

 

[Iceweasel]

I have trouble with killing with lucina, what are her best killing moves? I find myself spamming side smashes when possible...

Forward smash, up smash, occasionally ftilt. Depending on how your opponent recovers, side aerials are great for gimping. If you're fighting a lightweight and they're really high percent (talking 150+) you can kill with uthrow.

 

[femrilu]

Bear with me as I just started getting into SSB and don't know all the terms yet.

But going away from Sheik on SSB4 after enjoying her alot in SSBM (mainly cause of the down air) to Lucina I run into a big problem for me as a noob.

How to deal with ranged spammy characters, especially Lucas and Ness? I am actually quite frustrated with their PK Fire bs and barely manage to get close or grab them.

The people I play against also play totally different from the ones I play online on Dolphin. Less techniques, weird patterns, overall hard to read for a beginner like me anyway.

Any basic techniques in SSB4 (just started to play it 2 days ago) on how to gap close efficiently?
(Googling barely helped me tbh, got some stuff on powershielding, found out Lucina and Marth can SH airdodge to have more i-frames, but do you guys have the optimal gap closing combo?)

 

[BrendanLee]

Bear with me as I just started getting into SSB and don't know all the terms yet.

But going away from Sheik on SSB4 after enjoying her alot in SSBM (mainly cause of the down air) to Lucina I run into a big problem for me as a noob.

How to deal with ranged spammy characters, especially Lucas and Ness? I am actually quite frustrated with their PK Fire bs and barely manage to get close or grab them.

The people I play against also play totally different from the ones I play online on Dolphin. Less techniques, weird patterns, overall hard to read for a beginner like me anyway.

Any basic techniques in SSB4 (just started to play it 2 days ago) on how to gap close efficiently?
(Googling barely helped me tbh, got some stuff on powershielding, found out Lucina and Marth can SH airdodge to have more i-frames, but do you guys have the optimal gap closing combo?)

For gap closing the most basic one is running/walking/ and then shielding and dropping it. Foxtrotting and dash dancing pivot is also another option. The SH airdodge works as well and you can Fair or 1st hit of nair (start of some combos) after it. Down tilt is also good as it stops that Ness grab spam, you can also pivot/non-pivot F-Tilt or Jab. Try to be patient too. If you are winning they will most likely be forced to approach you. Do not give these characters alot of room to spam. IF you get hit by Ness Pk Fire you can jump out of it depending on how close you are to him.

If you mean combos for the character, they are not registered as true combos in training mode but the ones I can think of right now:
SH 1st hit of Nair (meaning you SH then wait to use Nair right before you land) > Dancing Blade /Grab/F smash/Jab
SH air dodge > 1st hit of Nair > Dancing Blade /Grab/F smash/Jab
SH Dancing Blade 1 > 1st Hit of Nair > F Smash/Dancing Blade/Jab/Grab (Use this one for Tall Characters)
Its risky and tricky but Sometimes I am able to get SH 1st hit of Nair > Up tilt > Up Air or 1st hit of Nair > up tilt > Up smash (Low Percents)
If you use Down throw you can get an up air from it if their percent isn't too high. I usually used Dancing Blade up version because it was the only one I could depend on in the last patch, Idk if the others are good now in this new patch.

 

[femrilu]

Thanks alot, when my Wii U comes in a few deys I will definitely try these out!

For the gap closing with running into shielding, don't I get into Lucas' grab range that way? As he will see I shield and then just use his long grab to get me into his down throw?

 

[Nika]

Oh yeah, you can up B out of PK Fire if the Ness tries to run in and grab you. Literally just mash it and the move will go off right around the time he gets to you. Ness players never seem to learn not to do this for some reason, I think it's just too ingrained in their playstyle (and also it gimps their whole game).

Lucas is pretty easy for Lucina, you can just do ftilts and fading fairs. If you think he's going to grab you when you run up, you could try spot dodging.

Learning to walk a lot is really useful btw, she (+ Marth) has the highest walk speed in the game and it gives you more options at close-mid range than dashing everywhere.

 

[femrilu]

Oh yeah, you can up B out of PK Fire if the Ness tries to run in and grab you. Literally just mash it and the move will go off right around the time he gets to you. Ness players never seem to learn not to do this for some reason, I think it's just too ingrained in their playstyle (and also it gimps their whole game).

Lucas is pretty easy for Lucina, you can just do ftilts and fading fairs. If you think he's going to grab you when you run up, you could try spot dodging.

Learning to walk a lot is really useful btw, she (+ Marth) has the highest walk speed in the game and it gives you more options at close-mid range than dashing everywhere.

Oha, didn't know that bout the up b out of Ness' PK Fire, thanks :D.

As Lucina vs Lucas, to get in range of the Ftilts, you think SH with airdoge into first hit of nair and then ftilt would work?

 

[BrendanLee]

Oha, didn't know that bout the up b out of Ness' PK Fire, thanks :D.

As Lucina vs Lucas, to get in range of the Ftilts, you think SH with airdoge into first hit of nair and then ftilt would work?

Yes, but be careful because Ftilt isnt really fast.

 

[Nika]

Yeah, I usually follow first hit of nair with utilt - below your opponent is usually the best position to be in. I want to try following it up with fsmash though, apparently that's possible.

 

[AUnique]

Yeah, I usually follow first hit of nair with utilt - below your opponent is usually the best position to be in. I want to try following it up with fsmash though, apparently that's possible.

A bit late on this, I reckon, but I can confirm NAir to FSmash works on middleweights from ~70% and on fast fallers and heavies from ~115%. Any earlier and it can be either shielded or countered with fast aerials.

So, recently I've been struggling a lot at punishing characters with good aerial games, which I separate into:
Aggresives, or characters with good to decent aerial mobility, coupled with low-lag or hard to punish aerials (for example: Ike, Mario, Roy, Ryu), and...
Gimmickys, which have some kind of extra movement option midair that allows them to escape disadvantage with ease, these specifically being multi-jumpers (Kirby and Jiggs, especially), Peach(gliding), and ZSS(flip).

My questions are:
vs. Aggresives, what is Lucina's most safe and reliable move to relieve their aerial pressure? Shieldgrabs are complicated due to how easily they can land on either side of you or the landing lag/shieldstun ratio being in their favor, and UTilt is too much of a commitment, imo.
vs. Gimmickys, I often get baited into commiting too much, as multi-jumpers have practically like 4 attempts at an advantageous 50/50 that leads to another lose-or-lose 50/50 upon my loss at the first one, Peach has FAir to punish my slightest mistake when dealing with her gliding shenanigans, and ZSS's Flip Kick is just absurdly hard to punish in general. Should I just let them be, or is there some way in which I can retaliate?

I know these aren't easy questions, and I probably didn't make my point clear enough, so any help is deeply appreciated.

 

[Nika]

My own style is just to play safe and wall people out with mostly fairs, occasionally nairs or any of her tilts. Fair is probably your best bet vs "aggressives". All her grounded moves leave her vulnerable, but you can fade with aerials. The tradeoff is that you're giving up ground whenever you fade, so you can get pushed to the edge or at least give up stage position. If you'd rather hold your ground, you can just throw out jabs - her jab has really good range.

The second question is harder to answer. One option you should practice is up B if you have a platform above you to land on - even if you whiff, the sudden change in vertical position makes it hard to punish as long as you're not just falling to the ground again. Otherwise, along with the normal spacing stuff I mentioned above, just practice your movement options on the ground - walking, dash dancing/dance trotting, dashing/jumping B reversal, reverse tilt/smash, etc. Those will help throw off your opponent's spacing, which is especially key for characters like that.

 

[AUnique]

Thanks for the tip, it has worked wonderfully so far! Still adapting to jumping with shoulder buttons though. I guess I've relied too much on shield, hence my trouble with hyper aggresive playstyles.

Yes! Forgot about Up B; that should do the trick. Great general outlook, it really helped me out!

 

[Nika]

Glad to hear it! Also I thought about it and realized this...

A bit late on this, I reckon, but I can confirm NAir to FSmash works on middleweights from ~70% and on fast fallers and heavies from ~115%. Any earlier and it can be either shielded or countered with fast aerials.

...is potentially a MASSIVE game changer. Like, having a guaranteed kill setup at a relatively low percent solves Lucina's biggest problem and makes her such a bigger threat. I'm super hyped to try this out. If it's a true combo, that paragraph is required reading for all Lucina mains!

 

[AUnique]

Sorry if I discourage you a bit; it's not my intention, but unfortunately, it isn't quite that as of right now. The kill potential is definitely there, but it's honestly way too hard to land in the midst of a match, at least from my experience, and its existence is already known, so people are able to react accordingly. I myself rarely ever land it, though I'm certainly not the best at exploiting openings, as you can tell.

At best, I see this combo as something for the opponent to fear, since Nair1 can be easily landed from SH Airdodge, but game-changing seems like stretching it.

 

[AUnique]

Oh, and forgot to say, the percents were messed up, stupid me.
It's ~115 for middleweights, ~95 for lightweights, ~130 for fast fallers, ~140 for heavyweights.

The good thing about the increased percents is Nair1>Shield Breaker might be a valid mixup, I dunno.

 

[Nika]

Yeah, I mean it's hard to land but any guaranteed kill setup for Lucina is a big step forward. Those percents are a bit discouraging but it's still about 50% below uthrow kill range. So yeah maybe that was too much but it's still a great thing to be aware of. SH air dodge -> nair 1 is a pretty solid approach in general anyway, especially if you don't spam it.

 

[ReRaze]

Wait you guys aren't using Lucina's nair 1 as a kill setup? Seriously that is the sole reason I play Lucina over Marth (that and Lucina is cooler). I've been using it for a while now and it hasn't failed me yet.

Dancing Blade > Nair 1 > Fsmash is how I end 90% of my stocks and works consistently at around 90%. Your opponent has a really small window to react and even then most of their options are too slow or beaten out for most characters, e.g F-smash can catch jumps, airdodges. Extremely quick moves like mario's nair can't reach Lucina and is beaten by Fsmash anyway. The only move that could beat it is probably Marcina's dolphin slash itself but you can shield and punish this.

Short hop airdodge > Nair 1 > Fsmash also works really well.

Pre patch, Shield breaker instead of fsmash was a ridiculously good mixup but now you have to weaken their shield a bit first.

It's also very safe because you can jump away after the first dancing blade/airdodge or continue the dancing blade so they can't shield grab you.

Marth's one doesn't work as well not only because sourspot nair and dancing blade have less hitstun iirc but you can't space fsmash off of this.

 

[AUnique]

Hmm, I'm not sure what to say here. I'm also aware of the Air DB1> Nair1> FSmash mixup, and the problem with that one is Air DB1 is very unreliable once your opponent knows what you're doing, which is pretty much always when you're up against experienced players. Why unreliable? Because the hitstun just isn't enough; any semi-quick aerial can interrupt it, like, frame 7 or faster. This happened to me all the time, reason why I stopped using it.

Nair1> FSmash is, however, a lot more useful.

Those percents are a bit discouraging but it's still about 50% below uthrow kill range

I'm basing this off percents where it will kill no matter what, more specifically, when knockback is enough to keep your opponent airborne until FSmash lands. I don't know if landing while in hitstun causes some lag for your opponent. If it does, the combo could work earlier than I expected, or have better mixup potential.

 

[ReRaze]

Hmm, I'm not sure what to say here. I'm also aware of the Air DB1> Nair1> FSmash mixup, and the problem with that one is Air DB1 is very unreliable once your opponent knows what you're doing, which is pretty much always when you're up against experienced players. Why unreliable? Because the hitstun just isn't enough; any semi-quick aerial can interrupt it, like, frame 7 or faster. This happened to me all the time, reason why I stopped using it.

Nair1> FSmash is, however, a lot more useful.

I'm basing this off percents where it will kill no matter what, more specifically, when knockback is enough to keep your opponent airborne until FSmash lands. I don't know if landing while in hitstun causes some lag for your opponent. If it does, the combo could work earlier than I expected, or have better mixup potential.

hmm have you tried spacing it? most of the faster moves don't have very good range, and surely not frame 7, I got a friend to test and Roy couldn't Blazer out of it.

Also hitstun does indeed carry over when you land. If i'm not mistaken....

 

[AUnique]

Yeah, I've tried, but the small reaction span is still there. I don't know, it just never worked for me, whether it was because of them shielding in time, or counterattacking.
Sorry, with frame 7 or earlier, I referred to Lucina's own Nair, which is frame 6 but hits mostly on frame 7.

 

[ReRaze]

Yeah, I've tried, but the small reaction span is still there. I don't know, it just never worked for me, whether it was because of them shielding in time, or counterattacking.
Sorry, with frame 7 or earlier, I referred to Lucina's own Nair, which is frame 6 but hits mostly on frame 7.

If they are shielding in time you are probably doing it at too low of a percent, but I guess if it never worked for you a simple nair f-smash is just as good if not better.

 

[Nika]

I have trouble pulling off short hop DB1 combos... it seems like it only works on half the cast since they need to be tall enough to get hit by it, plus DB1 is has some of the worst range of any of her moves and leaves you pretty vulnerable if you whiff, since it kills your momentum. It might be optimal for punishes but it feels too risky for a approach. Could just be my conservative playstyle though, I'll keep trying it and see if it nets me results.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Hi there. I'm adding characters into my playable characters list. Right now, I'm on secondaries and I want to have Lucina as one of my secondaries. This might be a superficial reason for wanting to have her as a secondary, but I love Lucina's brunette look. It's amazing. Not to mention, I like playing as her. How should I use Lucina and what are some good combos to use? Thank you in advance.

 

[Shaya]

I have trouble pulling off short hop DB1 combos... it seems like it only works on half the cast since they need to be tall enough to get hit by it, plus DB1 is has some of the worst range of any of her moves and leaves you pretty vulnerable if you whiff, since it kills your momentum. It might be optimal for punishes but it feels too risky for a approach. Could just be my conservative playstyle though, I'll keep trying it and see if it nets me results.

DB1 stuff never really combos and in general is something that only works on Wifi.
Don't take too much stock in it unless your only scope of play is wifi.

And if that's the case, then you can alternate between SHDB1 or SH air dodge first hit of neutral air.

Raw SHDB1, ignoring it's non-real components, would be something you look for from someone spot dodging immediately when you jump (afraid of grab?) or they're dash attacking into you.

Marth/Lucina do not have approaching tools in general. They can only attempt to outspace/outbutton other characters using their range/disjoint and not much else due to lack of safety and versatility; they can come out unscathed if they get a successful hit (and can continue to get successive hits through traps, no real combos unfortunately) but anything else leaves them much too open.

 

[HoSmash4]

What are Lucina's bread and butter combos/frame traps on fast fallers? (Sheik)

 

[Nika]

I usually open up a match by going for dthrow > bair/uair until I get into Dancing Blade percents (about 25-75%). The good news about fastfallers is that even though DB doesn't work at 0%, it ends up working well into mid percents, so the total percent range where it works is greater than on light characters. (Also, dthrow > bair/uair works for longer too.)

Lucina's moves are kinda too slow for frame traps imo, but other people might have some ideas on that front.

 

[Jaypen7]

How safe on shield are Lucina's moves this patch? I wouldn't really know about this stuff since I'm still fairly new to competitive smash in general.

 

[Greenkagami]

I'm looking to create a video character guide for Lucina, and any and all help would be be appreciated. Plus you'll receive a shoutout in the credits plus links to their contributors' respective channels or other social media pages.

 

[Nah]

How safe on shield are Lucina's moves this patch? I wouldn't really know about this stuff since I'm still fairly new to competitive smash in general.

It's only for aerials, but this is a list of all the characters's (minus Corrin and Bayonetta) safety on shield that Shaya posted about a week ago: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...72MVQ95wG5RfnHroDgMc8/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=0

Her aerials range from about -6 to -15 on shield it seems.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

So, Lucina isn't viable at high level play because she lacks lingering attacks and a projectile, and her lack of a tipper means she can't secure a ko at useful %, yet Marth's tipper mechanic only hinders him at high level play? I'm confused here.

 

[Jaypen7]

So, Lucina isn't viable at high level play because she lacks lingering attacks and a projectile, and her lack of a tipper means she can't secure a ko at useful %, yet Marth's tipper mechanic only hinders him at high level play? I'm confused here.

I mean she gets kills at like 80%(or %90) which is pretty alright.

 

[ReRaze]

It's not just that but her fsmash comes out on frame 10 i.e the fastest fsmash in the game. Combine that with an fsmash that's stronger than a majority of the casts and you have a reaaaallllyy good punish tool.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I mean she gets kills at like 80%(or %90) which is pretty alright.

What I mean is that why is Lucina inferior to Marth at high level play when I have seen a handful of people say that his tipper mechanic only ends up hindering him and she can't play properly at the same level because she lacks sweetspots in her attacks when this is exactly what hinders Marth?