Q&A Lucina Question and Answer Thread

[Locuan]

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Welcome to the Lucina Question and Answer Thread. Do you have a game-play related question that needs answering? Ask it here! Other users will be able to answer them. Additionally, if you feel that any of the questions and/or answers should be added to the main post feel free to let me know.

You can find the information regarding Marth and Lucina's differences by clicking the following link:
http://smashboards.com/threads/before-you-ask-the-differences-between-marth-and-lucina.376180/

 

[BSXDrayden]

What's a better movement option for Lucina: dashing, fox-trotting or walking? I know she has the tied highest walk speed in the game with Marth, but usually I fox-trot to get across stage. If there's a better option though, I'd happily switch to it.

 

[Locuan]

What's a better movement option for Lucina: dashing, fox-trotting or walking? I know she has the tied highest walk speed in the game with Marth, but usually I fox-trot to get across stage. If there's a better option though, I'd happily switch to it.

It depends on the situation, however, walking is heavily advised as it gives you the ability to have all of your response options open.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Customs question here. It's actually embarrassing to ask, but I am at a bit of a loss as what to do.

Why is Dashing Assault useful for Lucina's gameplan? I feel like everyone will continue to use their shield a lot against Lucina since she's so unsafe, so that's why I usually use Shield Breaker. But I'm not sure why Dashing Assault is used, exactly. With the lack of a 1113 set in customs, I do want to see if I should be using Dashing Assault.

And second, would Lucina's second Up B (the name escapes me...Crescent Slash) be considered a must? I do prefer Dolphin Jump at the moment but Lucina's issues with killing is pretty well known, so I was wondering if I should consider it.

 

[Locuan]

Customs question here. It's actually embarrassing to ask, but I am at a bit of a loss as what to do.

Why is Dashing Assault useful for Lucina's gameplan? I feel like everyone will continue to use their shield a lot against Lucina since she's so unsafe, so that's why I usually use Shield Breaker. But I'm not sure why Dashing Assault is used, exactly. With the lack of a 1113 set in customs, I do want to see if I should be using Dashing Assault.

And second, would Lucina's second Up B (the name escapes me...Crescent Slash) be considered a must? I do prefer Dolphin Jump at the moment but Lucina's issues with killing is pretty well known, so I was wondering if I should consider it.

First let's go with Crescent Slash. It's a very good move. Most opponents will not know how to DI correctly from the move and will be hit by F-throw > Crescent Slash. It can also be used after F-air sends opponents at a certain angle and to catch opponents after they have used their second jump. It actually has a lot of flexibility. You can also go further horizontally for gimps and be able to return to the stage thanks to the move. BUT, your vertical recovery will suffer. You can work around it and you will find that it doesn't really affect you after you get used to it.

At this point I think Dash Assault is a niche. It depends on the player. I for one enjoy using the move over shieldbreaker but there's a lot of people who use shieldbreaker over dash assault. Also, this is why I love dash assault:
https://gfycat.com/CheeryGloomyBat

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Thanks a lot! I'll try to experiment more with these moves and see what I value more. That Dash Assault setup was pretty awesome!

 

[Pipmonchan]

Personally, I gave up on Crescent Slash because my SD rate when way too high. I'm so used to Dolphin Slash that changing it is impossible for me right now (don't have a lot of time to train, neither).
Just started trying Dashing Assault (because of the lack of the 1113 custom set in EVO rules) and I I'm starting to love it. I think Lucina's grab game is enough of a threat for heavy blockers. I lately was feeling Shieldbreaker is too slow and get dodged too often.

 

[BSXDrayden]

Question: What are the benefits of down tilt minus pushing people slightly away? I hear it's one of Lucina's best moves but I don't use it too often nor really know why.

 

[Saki-]

Question: What are the benefits of down tilt minus pushing people slightly away? I hear it's one of Lucina's best moves but I don't use it too often nor really know why.

Your answer v

It's a strong poking tool that leads directly into an option tree for Lucina that is pivotal for her to control opponents and must be mastered if you want to take her to a high level of play. I will just copy paste directly from a thread I made back in my brawl playing days.



Most of this is still applicable, but Dancing Blade is now 3 frames slower, coming out at frame 7 and rolls are faster so that means your reactions need to be infallible. Practice up guys.

D-tilt is also just great space control. Get used to walking alot with Lucina. She and Marth have the fastest walk speed in the game. They can even walk faster then several characters can run at top speed!! You can do ANY action out of a walk and you have all your options available. This is befitting of their playstyle. They do not just run in sword swinging. They are precise, graceful and deadly. Using walking and empty short hops to space yourself then poke intelligently with d-tilt, jab, SH Nair. Lucina is dominant in footsies. Footsies is the war to control mid range. The space that exists at about 1 to 2 character lengths between both combatants. By exercising dominance at this range she can begin to push her opponent back onto the ledge for ledge traps and net huge damage or a stock. Alternatively she can set up air trap situations with Dancing Blade punishes using the up version. But it all begins with her strong footsies which d-tilt is a key component of.

Marth's best trap and the second best trap in the game after MK's d-tilt trap. As you may or may not know Marth's d-tilt comes out in 7 frames and has IASA frames. IASA stands for Interruptible As Soon As. This means he can cancel the ending lag of the d-tilt when it reaches a specefic point in it's animation. For this attack that point is when Marth retracts his arm. The exact frame that you cancel at is 21. Normally the D-tilt animation last 47 frames. So when you cancel it the recovery time is reduced by half. This makes it an amazing shield pressure tool and one of the best pokes in the game. The d-tilt trap abuses these qualities for an almost airtight trap that an opponent is hard pressed to get out of. Doing it is very simple as well.

All you have to do to start the trap is space a d-tilt as a poke. The trap is initiated when your opponent shields or spotdodges. After that Marth has options to either punish any action his opponent takes or at the very least he will be unharmed and in a position to reset the trap and/or stay in control of the match. Now I will list each action an opponent may take and the appropriate counter.

Edit: Fixed the brackets

 

[Locuan]

Personally, I gave up on Crescent Slash because my SD rate when way too high.

Practice with the move, it has a lot of benefits that you would miss out on. It took me a long while to get used to it as well but it was worth it later on.

Question: What are the benefits of down tilt minus pushing people slightly away? I hear it's one of Lucina's best moves but I don't use it too often nor really know why.

What do you mean by pushing people slightly away?

 

[BSXDrayden]

Practice with the move, it has a lot of benefits that you would miss out on. It took me a long while to get used to it as well but it was worth it later on.

What do you mean by pushing people slightly away?

Oops, phrased it badly. I meant like keeping them away from me through space control.

Thanks for the answer Taysa! I'll do a lot more practice with it and short-hopping in training over the next couple of days then. I don't short-hop enough as I press buttons too hard so I need to practice being gentle a lot more.

 

[ReRaze]

If I read the frame data correctly dolphin slash hits starting on frame 5. Yet its a combo breaker? Isn't frame 5 a little slow for a combo breaker? Did i misread the data or is there something i dont know about dolphin slash such as invincibility frames.

 

[Codaption]

Question for a friend, what are the uses for the different versions of Dancing Blade? I have a basic knowledge of what the final hits can do, and know nothing aboutwhat the other hits are used for.

 

[Locuan]

If I read the frame data correctly dolphin slash hits starting on frame 5. Yet its a combo breaker? Isn't frame 5 a little slow for a combo breaker? Did i misread the data or is there something i dont know about dolphin slash such as invincibility frames.

It does have invincibility frames. Although at the moment I forgot the frames at which those do come up. @ Shaya knows more about this.

Question for a friend, what are the uses for the different versions of Dancing Blade? I have a basic knowledge of what the final hits can do, and know nothing about what the other hits are used for.

The first hit will always be the same. However, from the second hit until the last you can either input while in the DB animation and get hits with different properties:





The variation I use the most is the up variant. This can set up for various situations. For example, if I perform DB1 > up DB2, this will send my opponent at an upward angle (into the air). I would then stop the DB animation. My opponent has various options but if I have conditioned them to me using the full hits of DB they are more than likely to try to jump or in the best situation airdodge. If they air dodge, they will land on the ground with 22 frames of landing lag which I can punish how I see fit.

In the case of the downwards variant, the third hit can actually hit opponents on the ledge after their invincibility has ended. However, I use it mostly when my opponent is shielding my DB. I finish with the last hit of the DB downwards since it has multiple hits in succession than more often than not an average leveled player will drop their shields before the animation ends.

There are more applications but you can read them on @EternalFlame's guide.
http://smashboards.com/guides/the-blade-of-two-fates-marth-lucina-guide.89/

 

[Shaya]

4-6 from the ground and 1-4 in the air for DS invincibility

 

[Codaption]

It does have invincibility frames. Although at the moment I forgot the frames at which those do come up. @ Shaya knows more about this.

The first hit will always be the same. However, from the second hit until the last you can either input while in the DB animation and get hits with different properties:





The variation I use the most is the up variant. This can set up for various situations. For example, if I perform DB1 > up DB2, this will send my opponent at an upward angle (into the air). I would then stop the DB animation. My opponent has various options but if I have conditioned them to me using the full hits of DB they are more than likely to try to jump or in the best situation airdodge. If they air dodge, they will land on the ground with 22 frames of landing lag which I can punish how I see fit.

In the case of the downwards variant, the third hit can actually hit opponents on the ledge after their invincibility has ended. However, I use it mostly when my opponent is shielding my DB. I finish with the last hit of the DB downwards since it has multiple hits in succession than more often than not an average leveled player will drop their shields before the animation ends.

There are more applications but you can read them on @EternalFlame's guide.
http://smashboards.com/guides/the-blade-of-two-fates-marth-lucina-guide.89/

Thank you for this! I just sent the link to them, hopefully this will help a lot.

 

[PMMikey]

I am having such a hard time killing. Like I can totally rack up the damage but just can't ever land the kill tips?

 

[Iceweasel]

Does each hit of Lucina's Down finisher of Dancing Blade count separately for the purposes of move staling? I remember that you could land Side Side Side Down to refresh Brawl Marth's stale move queue, does that still work in Smash 4?

 

[Locuan]

I am having such a hard time killing. Like I can totally rack up the damage but just can't ever land the kill tips?

If you had videos of your gameplay it'd be better to point out what you can do to get kills. Normally, when I find myself in situations like these it is because my opponent has figured out my patterns and my attempts to get the KO so I try different mix-ups. On another note, these are good KO options:

• OoS Up-Smash: For when your opponent is harassing your shield and if he/she performed incorrect spacing.
• Perfect Pivot F-Smash: Used when the opponent is recovering from the ledge and you predicted a roll, or a regular ledge getup. The perfect pivot is good since it gives them the impression you are leaving them with space when you are actually just around the corner coming in with a kill
• D-Smash: To punish rolls.
• U-Throw: If your opponent is over 150%.

For everything else, you can get kills with good reads. An opponent fell on the top platform? He/she has various options, tech in place, getup attack, roll left, roll right. If you predict correctly you can U-Smash kill. Same thing when the opponent lands on stage but you can now use either Smash attack. F-tilt also works good on ledges at high percents.

There might be more stuff I could help out with but it'd be good if you had any videos of your gameplay. Additionally, I saw your tag at Shockwave the day before Aftershock but it seems you had left already and couldn't find/talk to you.

Does each hit of Lucina's Down finisher of Dancing Blade count separately for the purposes of move staling? I remember that you could land Side Side Side Down to refresh Brawl Marth's stale move queue, does that still work in Smash 4?

I actually have no idea. @ Shaya , do you know if this still works?

 

[Shaya]

Fourth strike didn't count as multiple moves.

Dancing blade is still an amazing way to shift your queue 4 spots.

 

[PMMikey]

If you had videos of your gameplay it'd be better to point out what you can do to get kills. Normally, when I find myself in situations like these it is because my opponent has figured out my patterns and my attempts to get the KO so I try different mix-ups. On another note, these are good KO options:

• OoS Up-Smash: For when your opponent is harassing your shield and if he/she performed incorrect spacing.
• Perfect Pivot F-Smash: Used when the opponent is recovering from the ledge and you predicted a roll, or a regular ledge getup. The perfect pivot is good since it gives them the impression you are leaving them with space when you are actually just around the corner coming in with a kill
• D-Smash: To punish rolls.
• U-Throw: If your opponent is over 150%.

For everything else, you can get kills with good reads. An opponent fell on the top platform? He/she has various options, tech in place, getup attack, roll left, roll right. If you predict correctly you can U-Smash kill. Same thing when the opponent lands on stage but you can now use either Smash attack. F-tilt also works good on ledges at high percents.

There might be more stuff I could help out with but it'd be good if you had any videos of your gameplay. Additionally, I saw your tag at Shockwave the day before Aftershock but it seems you had left already and couldn't find/talk to you.

I actually have no idea. @ Shaya , do you know if this still works?

What does Oos mean?

 

[DrCactus]

Oos = Out of Shield
Also, I never actually thought of using up smash Oos, I'll have to try that.
Perfect Pivoting is something I gotta practice as well.

 

[Locuan]

What does Oos mean?

Out of Shield. Dropping your shield is a 7 frame action if I'm not mistaken. So if you attack after dropping your shield normally, that attack will come out after at least 12-13? frames (if you used jab). However, if while in shield you input jump and then quickly input an OoS option, you don't have to wait for those 7 frames meaning you attack faster. For example, you can OoS Up-Smash and Up-B with Lucina.

 

[PMMikey]

Out of Shield. Dropping your shield is a 7 frame action if I'm not mistaken. So if you attack after dropping your shield normally, that attack will come out after at least 12-13? frames (if you used jab). However, if while in shield you input jump and then quickly input an OoS option, you don't have to wait for those 7 frames meaning you attack faster. For example, you can OoS Up-Smash and Up-B with Lucina.

So just block and while blocking attack?

 

[Locuan]

So just block and while blocking attack?

While in shield, you need to input the jump button and then quickly input Up-Smash or Up-B and you will be able to perform the action.

First try regularly dropping shield and then Up-Smashing. After that is done, perform an Up-Smash Out of Shield. You should be able to notice the difference.

If you are still unable to see the difference or need more help let me know. I can try recording a side by side view by recording some videos.

 

[PMMikey]

While in shield, you need to input the jump button and then quickly input Up-Smash or Up-B and you will be able to perform the action.

First try regularly dropping shield and then Up-Smashing. After that is done, perform an Up-Smash Out of Shield. You should be able to notice the difference.

If you are still unable to see the difference or need more help let me know. I can try recording a side by side view by recording some videos.

Would you please record?

 

[Locuan]

Would you please record?

My video editing sucks so I made two gifs:

The first Gif represents Out of Shield. See the difference? On the second, it takes Lucina longer to perform the U-Smash because she has to drop her shield first.

 

[DrCactus]

Does anybody know what % a fully charged Shield breaker would kill at before the patch? I'm doing some testing and it's killing Mario on Wii U FD at like 42/43% on the spot player 2 first spawns at, and now I'm curious as to what the needed % was pre-patch

 

[PMMikey]

What are some good ways to approach? Dash attack have too much lag and if I fair and they block well they're going to grab me.

 

[Iceweasel]

What are some good ways to approach? Dash attack have too much lag and if I fair and they block well they're going to grab me.

I don't usually approach. I use Lucina when I need to play defensively, and unless I'm pretty sure I'm not gonna get shielded, I walk. That said, fair is decent, RAR bair has good range, but a lot of startup, and nair doesn't have much lag. For ground attacks, you can occasionally catch someone off guard with a dashing shield breaker (dash, release, b. If you've done it right, you'll slide just a little bit while doing a shield breaker. If you've done it wrong, you'll Side-B)

 

[Legato]

Hello Lucina mains This might get moved to the MU thread, but I didn't want to mess up the kirby momentum. Played a brilliant Lucina today who really wrecked my Fox. I ended up needing to go Sheik because her spacing was just too good.

Anyways, I caught this Lucina in utilt combos with Fox, but around the second/third utilt she would use uair and get out of it. Does anyone know if this is consistently a combo breaker on a fox utilt string? If no one is 100% sure I might just have to hit the lab. Seems like it's a good find for you Lucina mains in the Fox MU if it is consistent.

 

[Locuan]

What are some good ways to approach? Dash attack have too much lag and if I fair and they block well they're going to grab me.

Lucina is a reactionary character. This means she is best played responding to opponents reactions and punishing them for it. Additionally, you want to limit how much you dash. This game rewards you for walking a lot as all of your options are available to you.

F-air is not a safe option as you mentioned, you need to vary your moves. D-tilt is a great poke, Jabs are good to get opponents off etc.

Anyways, I caught this Lucina in utilt combos with Fox, but around the second/third utilt she would use uair and get out of it. Does anyone know if this is consistently a combo breaker on a fox utilt string? If no one is 100% sure I might just have to hit the lab. Seems like it's a good find for you Lucina mains in the Fox MU if it is consistent.

At what frame does Fox's U-tilt hit-box come out? U-air comes out on Frame 5 so if it's timed in a certain fashion, and it's fast enough, then it should be able to break the string.

 

[Silleby]

Hello Lucina mains This might get moved to the MU thread, but I didn't want to mess up the kirby momentum. Played a brilliant Lucina today who really wrecked my Fox. I ended up needing to go Sheik because her spacing was just too good.

Anyways, I caught this Lucina in utilt combos with Fox, but around the second/third utilt she would use uair and get out of it. Does anyone know if this is consistently a combo breaker on a fox utilt string? If no one is 100% sure I might just have to hit the lab. Seems like it's a good find for you Lucina mains in the Fox MU if it is consistent.

I'm ALMOST 100% sure that U-Air stops the UpAir strings, noticed that a few days ago against a pretty good Fox, UpAir broke the string every single time.

 

[Legato]

Yeah, it works pretty well, I readjusted now by blocking so there is some risk using once a Fox knows you can do it. Still, keeps us guessing and takes away an opportunity for "free" damage.

Edit: Not too sure about the frame data, I'll check around.

2nd Edit: So, Fox's uair starts at frame 3, but his foot is at the floor when this begins. My theory is that Lucina's utilt reaches Fox before the hitbox reaches her.

 

[Boney]

I've got two questions, both when it comes to shield breaking.
First, at low % what are the best option to go for maximum damage?
Second, what has better knock back, a fully charged fsmash or a shieldbreaker?

 

[Moydow]

Fully charged Shield Breaker does 23%, and kills Mario at 49% in training from his starting position on FD.
Fully charged f-smash does 21%, and kills from 58%.
So for punishing broken shields, Shield Breaker is your best option.

 

[RosalinaSGS]

I've got two questions, both when it comes to shield breaking.
First, at low % what are the best option to go for maximum damage?
Second, what has better knock back, a fully charged fsmash or a shieldbreaker?

As for your first question, DB can rack up damage reasonably, and fair is a rather safe way to approach although can become predictable after a while. You can also try SH SB, although it is punishable.

 

[Liyrex]

How versatile is Dolphin slash as a kill move, ad if it is safe to use it should you over something like fair or f tilt?

 

[RosalinaSGS]

How versatile is Dolphin slash as a kill move, ad if it is safe to use it should you over something like fair or f tilt?

It can kill if fresh and near the edge, but fsmash will usually kill sooner, although may be harder to land. It can also sometimes be comboed into from DB, but it's quite a risky move and can be very easily punished if it doesn't hit. If it does, they'll usually be sent far enough for you to safely recover.
As for fair and ftilt, they're probably better moves, and are safer. I believe DS has greater knockback, but imo it should really only be used to kill or finish a combo, and it's still rather risky then.

One option, if you play with customs, is crescent slash, which is a true combo from fthrow.

 

[Liyrex]

Thanks, no customs though I think f tilt is the best option as d air is a bad habit for me and i started using dolphin slash because f smash wasnt hitting.