Lucas mains, I need your help.

[~Pink Fresh~]

ok i'm a little confused here. i was sitting the barbershop getting my hair cut, when i thought about how lucas would look if he got his hair cut. then i thought, "whoa wtf was i thinking". anyway i thought about how lucas isn't placing at tournaments at all. i sat there and wondered what was wrong. why is it that our character isn't placing, but others are. i tried to figure out what lucas had that was soooo bad that he hasn't come in top 8 within like a month or 2. this is what i came up with

limited range
slow projectile
poor matchups against top tiers

i figure that doesn't make sense. i mean look at falcon. he has like 0 range minus uair, dtilt, ftilt, utilt. he doesn't even have a projectile. plus his matchups are worse than ours. how is he placing higher than us? is our character really that bad? so... i need your help.


why aren't we placing? what is preventing lucas from prospering? what makes him such a bad character?

 

[Nefarious B]

Falcon places? I thought he was loltier

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Falcon places? I thought he was loltier

he's 19th for the month of december.

 

[prOAPC]

Lucas is not a popular character. He's from a japanese only game, he's a kid that looks cute, while C. Falcon is from a really well known game, and he looks mainly, so people prefer to try to use him instead of using Lucas, well, that's what scrubs tell me before they get owned.
On a serious note, Lucas in not the type of character that most people would like the first time they use him, specially for his normal recovery (upB, without the ATs), noobs like easy recovery, like second jump+easy upB (like, falcon, toon link, marth...)
On the other hand, we need some more (popular) videos in youtube, of an outstanding Lucas player, so people can say "omg! Lucas can do that! i should try that character", that happened to me with NL's diddy, and at the beginning of brawl happened to everyone with Snake.
my theory is:
more popular -> more people playing the character -> more people using the character in tournaments -> higher chance to get better placings

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

falcon and marth are pretty difficult in terms of recovery. you CANNOT use your second jump with them; something that is not noob friendly. marth only uses his second jump when he is too low, too far away to just up b, or to stall invinci frames. other than that he can usually just up b or land on the stage.


that's besides the point. i would like to know what makes lucas bad. the worst thing i can think of are matchups, which IMO needs some revising. DK is NOT 25:75. he's definitely a soft counter. we have his ratio worse than marth's and that just isn't right.

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

DK is definitely a soft-counter.

I have to think about your question though.... But I think a lot of it has to do with his bad match-ups against Game and Watch and Marth. Well, for me at least. There are too many in my region.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

DK is definitely a soft-counter.

I have to think about your question though.... But I think a lot of it has to do with his bad match-ups against Game and Watch and Marth. Well, for me at least. There are too many in my region.

Marth is everywhere >_>
G&W not so much, but there are plently of them.

 

[ToxiCrow]

DK is definitely a soft-counter.

we hav to re-check the match ups. he's not that bad. his vertical recovery is terrible. u can spike him ur dair and he wont be able to recover (lucas' dair is a pretty weak spike)

 

[PKNintendo]

It's because 70% of Lucas mains quit Lucas when they thought Marth could truly infinite them.

50% of players counterpick to Marth when they see Lucas (or Ness) and the Lucas mains freak and get infinited. (or worse)

That pretty much sums it.

 

[prOAPC]

marths are everywhere, that's why i have exp in this match up, that i don't see him that hard
i still have to fight a good G&W, these days i read a G&W main, saying that G&W can't punish, can we take that in our adv?
here we have really few snakes, but all of them give me problems, everytime i'm about to win, a C4 appears from nowhere and kill me
generally, a find hard match up that have more priority in the air, like MK and Peach, and have a better projectil game, like Toon Link

 

[ToxiCrow]

ihate that...so much. its not like Lucas is the worst in the game

 

[Tyr_03]

Marth isn't Lucas's worst matchup. Once you get Marth off the stage he's extremely easy to gimp. All you really have to do is space extremely well when you're at kill percentage to avoid the Dsmash death. It's bad but not terrible.

I save Snake for killing Game and Watches. It's a much easier matchup for obvious reasons.

The reason that Lucas doesn't do well in tournaments is because he's at a disadvantage against almost all high and top tiers. So you basically have to be better than everyone at the tournament by a substantial margin or else you're going to lose unless the entire tournament is full of like...Dedede players which they never are. So yeah...the best players at tournaments aren't playing Lucas. That's why we're not winning. Same reason Ness wasn't winning tournaments in Melee. He got ***** by like everyone because he's an inferior character who only like 3 good players played. If Champ and Reflex were playing Lucas instead of Falcon they'd probably be doing well with him.

 

[PKNintendo]

Why are they even playing Falcon?

Edit: Lucas needs more help!

 

[ZMan]

No one excels with Lucas yet. That's just it. And doesn't Reflex use Wario?

 

[lil cj]

We all know that Lucas has potential to place in tournies
Players like Galeon, Okin, and Seanson has showed us that
But its due to his lack of popularity
and no one but us Lucas mains hav respect for the little guy
He has to gain that respect and we as Lucas mains have to do our part to develop his meta game and GO TO TOURNIES
The Deadly 4 is wat is literally killing Lucas right now
once we find ways to beat them...Lucas will be alright

 

[thecatinthehat]

Falcon is a bad example.

Use Sonic instead.

He actually does amazing in tourneys.

Falcon is meh.

 

[Neon Ness]

is the Meta Knight of low tier...

But yeah, what Tyr said is true, and it's been said before. Tournaments are crawling with people who main our worst matchups. Using Lucas is an uphill battle, so much so that many would call it impossible to do well with Lucas in the Smash World.

And we'll have to prove 'em wrong...

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

we hav to re-check the match ups. he's not that bad. his vertical recovery is terrible. u can spike him ur dair and he wont be able to recover (lucas' dair is a pretty weak spike)

I'd rather Bair than dair. his hitbox is ********. Bair can out range him (while spiking) both horizontally and vertically. dair barely even outranges it vertically. besides, you can bair -> dair if you miss the spike. then again... most DK's won't have to get to the point where you they have to use spinning kong.

Marth isn't Lucas's worst matchup. Once you get Marth off the stage he's extremely easy to gimp. All you really have to do is space extremely well when you're at kill percentage to avoid the Dsmash death. It's bad but not terrible.

I save Snake for killing Game and Watches. It's a much easier matchup for obvious reasons.

The reason that Lucas doesn't do well in tournaments is because he's at a disadvantage against almost all high and top tiers. So you basically have to be better than everyone at the tournament by a substantial margin or else you're going to lose unless the entire tournament is full of like...Dedede players which they never are. So yeah...the best players at tournaments aren't playing Lucas. That's why we're not winning. Same reason Ness wasn't winning tournaments in Melee. He got ***** by like everyone because he's an inferior character who only like 3 good players played. If Champ and Reflex were playing Lucas instead of Falcon they'd probably be doing well with him.

so basically, we suck lol.

Why are they even playing Falcon?

Edit: Lucas needs more help!

don't question teh falcon

Falcon is a bad example.

Use Sonic instead.

He actually does amazing in tourneys.

Falcon is meh.

i used falcon because of his placement on the tier list.

 

[Chuee]

Why are people playing falcon?!?!?!?!?!? Its really obvious. Hes the most epic character in the game. A FALCON PAAAWWWWNCH and Super powerful knee.

I fought a G&W a few days ago on the AiB ladder. I didnt really have a hard time fighting him most matches & he never really bucketed my pkf. The only problems i had were when he bucket gimped my PKT and then killed me at low percent the next stock -_-

Come on guise we can at least get a few points =/

 

[ToxiCrow]

I'd rather Bair than dair. his hitbox is ********. Bair can out range him (while spiking) both horizontally and vertically. dair barely even outranges it vertically. besides, you can bair -> dair if you miss the spike. then again... most DK's won't have to get to the point where you they have to use spinning kong.

i'd rather bair then dair too, but the point i was making is that his vertical recovery is so bad that even if u hit with dair he wont be able to recover.
i'd rather spike with bair over dair anyday

 

[mNag]

we hav to re-check the match ups. he's not that bad. his vertical recovery is terrible. u can spike him ur dair and he wont be able to recover (lucas' dair is a pretty weak spike)

It's all about the bair. Dair has it's place, but bair should be your primary spike. Infact, I prefer to approach with my bair instead of nair or fair for the extra range.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

It's all about the bair. Dair has it's place, but bair should be your primary spike. Infact, I prefer to approach with my bair instead of nair or fair for the extra range.

OH SNAP NEW LUCAS lol.
uhm... you can approach with bair, but you have to know how to do it.

tell me kind sir...
how do you approach with bair? details please.

 

[ToxiCrow]

LOL yes it's all about the bair but thats not the point i'm making =]
DK = Bad vertical recovery. that's what i'm trying to get across lol

 

[Tyr_03]

Yes, essentially I'm saying we suck. Or rather we're not enough better than our opponents to beat them when we're at a natural disadvantage.

And Reflex plays Wario, Pokemon Trainer and Captain Falcon last I saw. He's ridiculous with all three.

 

[ToxiCrow]

LOL i love Tyr's brutal honesty

 

[ChrisTheCom]

Lucas is not a popular character. He's from a japanese only game, he's a kid that looks cute, while C. Falcon is from a really well known game, and he looks mainly, so people prefer to try to use him instead of using Lucas, well, that's what scrubs tell me before they get owned.
my theory is:
more popular -> more people playing the character -> more people using the character in tournaments -> higher chance to get better placings

Unfortunately, I think this is one of the two things affecting Lucas' tourney results. Lucas simply isn't as well known compared to the other characters, and those who saw him for the first time in the SSE saw him as a wimp that needed Ness' ninja skills to save him (even though he eventually became brave).

Lucas also features a greater learning curve (than others), requiring the proper utilisation of spacing techniques to control a match. This generally makes newcomers feel awkward when using him, especially due to his different playstyle compared to other, more straightforward characters, leading them to often fall back on grounded PK fires and smashes to try and overcome their opponent, rather than well timed aerials/tilts/grabs. On top of this is his PK Thunder recovery which takes time to perfect, and just recovering in general, which is something that requires experience to know when to tether/zap jump etc.

I only started using Lucas after seeing someone's combo video on YouTube (megablueblaster) found here http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=YV689E9vYsk (love bair spikes), perhaps showcasing Lucas' abilities more (in tourneys, etc) would attract more players.

And of course, Lucas' bad match ups are very discouraging, I know that if I have a couple of matches where I'm off my game I'll switch to a different character.

Basically, I think playing as Lucas requires an insane amount of precision, not just in getting the perfect height and spacing for PK fires and SH fairs, nairs, dairs etc, but also in timing thunders, smashes, perfecting the timing of Zap Jumping and Magnet Pulling and other AT's, his grab's timing and range, and this is something not only awkward for newcomers, but very straining on current players. This is certainly not helped by the myriad of people maining his counters, which are even more stressful for a Lucas main (obviously there's less strain in a advantageous matchup than a disadvantageous one), hence less people are using him, hence less high placements.

 

[lil cj]

Unfortunately, I think this is one of the two things affecting Lucas' tourney results. Lucas simply isn't as well known compared to the other characters, and those who saw him for the first time in the SSE saw him as a wimp that needed Ness' ninja skills to save him (even though he eventually became brave).

Lucas also features a greater learning curve (than others), requiring the proper utilisation of spacing techniques to control a match. This generally makes newcomers feel awkward when using him, especially due to his different playstyle compared to other, more straightforward characters, leading them to often fall back on grounded PK fires and smashes to try and overcome their opponent, rather than well timed aerials/tilts/grabs. On top of this is his PK Thunder recovery which takes time to perfect, and just recovering in general, which is something that requires experience to know when to tether/zap jump etc.

I only started using Lucas after seeing someone's combo video on YouTube (megablueblaster) found here http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=YV689E9vYsk (love bair spikes), perhaps showcasing Lucas' abilities more (in tourneys, etc) would attract more players.

And of course, Lucas' bad match ups are very discouraging, I know that if I have a couple of matches where I'm off my game I'll switch to a different character.

Basically, I think playing as Lucas requires an insane amount of precision, not just in getting the perfect height and spacing for PK fires and SH fairs, nairs, dairs etc, but also in timing thunders, smashes, perfecting the timing of Zap Jumping and Magnet Pulling and other AT's, his grab's timing and range, and this is something not only awkward for newcomers, but very straining on current players. This is certainly not helped by the myriad of people maining his counters, which are even more stressful for a Lucas main (obviously there's less strain in a advantageous matchup than a disadvantageous one), hence less people are using him, hence less high placements.

You pretty much said it all
Another new Lucas main!

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Yes, essentially I'm saying we suck. Or rather we're not enough better than our opponents to beat them when we're at a natural disadvantage.

And Reflex plays Wario, Pokemon Trainer and Captain Falcon last I saw. He's ridiculous with all three.

i think it's both of the things you said plus the fact that like 20 people main him. Only about 8 go to tournaments. like 4 go consistently.

 

[Seanson]

i havent played brawl for a few mo0nths, but i guess im coming back since i dont suck as much as i thought. i tried my best at a tourney two days ago and all I could come up with was 7th out of 52. I almost won the match where i lost but it was too close, and against my nemesis. at least there will be a top8 now once i get tourney host to post the results

 

[ParanoidDrone]

*snip*

Hmm...I used Ness in both 64 and Melee, so I was already used to his floaty jump and odd recovery. Maybe this is why I didn't find Lucas too hard to use? I'll agree he does require a lot of precision.

Maybe we could recruit Marth players since they already have spacing down?

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

Watching Tyr be brutally honest makes me want to be equally as honest... maybe just plain mean... Hmmm...

Lucases to Learn From:
Seanson
Galeon
Ok1n

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Okin plays funny, he said it himself.

not much pk fire, too much dair. blah blah.

the thing is, we don't have a "lucas from which to learn." we kinda feed off each other, though most people on here are trash.


Edit:

Maybe we could recruit marth players since they already have spacing down

Nobody from brawl would switch marth for lucas.

I played marth in melee, if that counts.

 

[lil cj]

I think the we should recruit some of the Zelda, Ness, and Olimar mains
They are the most similar to Lucas out of every other character.
Alot of people that play Ness already play Lucas and come to the Lucas boards
Plenty of Zelda mains either second Lucas or is trying to learn him
And Ive seen alot of people on SWF that main both Oli and Lucas for some reason...they are too similar...but Olimar is better than Lucas overall and can take care of most of Lucas' bad match ups.
...he just has a terrible recovery.

 

[Chuee]

Watching Tyr be brutally honest makes me want to be equally as honest... maybe just plain mean... Hmmm...

Lucases to Learn From:
Seanson
Galeon
Ok1n

Serpit's also really good with lucas. The only thing is the people ive seen him fight arent lucas' worst matchups.

And yeah noone would switch from a high tier to a low tier.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Well yeah, but I thought maybe we could learn something from their spacing. Or something.

I wonder how Olimar relates to Lucas? I can see Zelda since her kicks of doom are really precise and Ness for obvious reasons, but Olimar?

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

we could just become better players instead of recruiting people.

 

[ToxiCrow]

i havent played brawl for a few mo0nths, but i guess im coming back since i dont suck as much as i thought. i tried my best at a tourney two days ago and all I could come up with was 7th out of 52. I almost won the match where i lost but it was too close, and against my nemesis. at least there will be a top8 now once i get tourney host to post the results

yea post those at ankoku's thread. it should help.
is there a thread for the tourney 2 days ago?

 

[Dxt XXII]

Why would anyone use Lucas? Look at his matchups. He has a huge learning curve.
He is fun to play. So? He's not winning me money.

^Unfortunately, that is the mentality of most serious smashers.

The good news is that more good Lucases are coming up. A few months ago, there were maybe three or four good Lucas players. Now there are way more.

 

[ToxiCrow]

^^^
Galeon, Serpit, Ok1n, Livan. thats not a whole lot
i'm not trying to be disrespectful (just in case it sounded like i came off that way =] )

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

Daaaaaayuuuuum. ToxiCrow is mutha-effin harsh, yo.