Lock On Technology! Sonic Match Up Discussion

[Planet Piss]

Yeah, they have to be behind you a bit, you angle it down, and hit with the elbow on return. If they DI it like they would a usual fsmash, you get a free whatever. It's pretty hilarious, but really situational.

You could probably do it to utilt, or omgggg downb jc nair resets. :o :o :o

Know what's even better? uthrow fsmash fsmash. Dat double fsmash swag

 

[Wizzrobe]

Know what's even better? uthrow fsmash fsmash. Dat double fsmash swag

I just Side B after every Up-throw.

you can potentially drag them off the stage which is basically an insta-death with HA,

Also, Side B can cover all DI's except directly above, but when they do that I can usually react and up-tilt or something.

You can't f-smash if he DI's away.

 

[GHNeko]

lol wizzy your playstyle is mad simple.

hbox jr

 

[Planet Piss]

I just Side B after every Up-throw.

you can potentially drag them off the stage which is basically an insta-death with HA,

Also, Side B can cover all DI's except directly above, but when they do that I can usually react and up-tilt or something.

You can't f-smash if he DI's away.

Yeah lol double fsmash is by no means a pragmatic combo/gimmick but it's cool when it goes down.

Personally I like adding down b WDs and utilts when they don't DI to get that extra damage before I combo them offstage. Most people are reluctant to go offstage against Sonic so they'll DI up to stay on. I like meteoring people out of forward b also, then HAing after they're stuck below the stage.

As a potential new topic, have any of you fought a good Lucas? ****'s scary when he just zips around dacusing everything. He's like Falco except harder to gimp and more frightening.

 

[GHNeko]

yes i have. lucas isnt harder to gimp imo. hes just annoying

 

[Planet Piss]

yes i have. lucas isnt harder to gimp imo. hes just annoying

I have a much easier time gimping Falcos, I'll just say.
Lucas is really annoying though, especially if the player knows the matchup. Specials don't work unless Lucas is already in hitstun or teching because his pkf, magnet, and especially that janky nair all gobble Sonic right up. You really have to play defensively against Lucas, not drop any combos, and try to predect when he's going to magnet stall or teather so you can edgegaurd him properly. Baiting usmashes works too.
I was just wondering if anyone has any tips for the matchup because it's very difficult when the Lucas knows the matchup; I get hit by **** like forward b dacus all day and it's terrible.

 

[GHNeko]

block pf freeze. block all jab sequences. and abuse SM on platforms. looookas is not great at defending his back side so attempt to cross him up alot.

 

[Solharath]

Yeaaah, it's definitely best to be defensive against Lucas. Personally I find SDJ>Wavedash>Pivot Grab(either pivot and grab or actually Pivot Grab) to be fairly effective if you can predict their shield(and of course, if you think they'll Short Hop Nair, then Wavedash back out of a SD and punish). Sonic is basically always fast enough to punish mistakes, and wavedashing basically gives you the ability to stay in your lovely little Spin Charge and act out of it fairly quickly.

Another thing I've learned to love is to short/full hop Side B and hold down the Side B for maximum height. It's great at popping over sex kicks and most nairs. Then just time your double jump into a bair or try to land, wavedash, and punish if you're quick enough.

Sonic is basically always quick enough to lay on the pressure if you wanna be aggressive, but you cannot allow yourself to autopilot against a smart opponent that can easily answer SD like Lucas and his Nair. Hell, half the time he can just grab you out of your SD with his snake a lot easier than most characters can.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Since the person who started the thread doesn't come on anymore, we won't focus on any specific MU just ask me about any MU you guys are wondering about.

Also, to any admins or mods in the PM forum: I recommend just letting me take over this thread since neko doesn't come on anymore. Reflex let me take over the video thread a while ago, so I might as well take over this one as well.

 

[leelue]

Sounds good. I disagree with Neko's opinions anyway.

 

[Solharath]

So the Sonic Ditto. I hate it with a burning passion.

He who tilts most tilts best? Spins get stuffed by Sonic's tilts on most occasion, if my last two Sonic dittos were any indication. I mean, it's obvious to say that the person who knows Sonic best will win, but it's worth noting that it's especially true even when the player is arguably worse. Case in point, my spin and spin combos were bested by my opponent, but because I knew Sonic better than my opponent did by sheer force of experience and practice, I just stopped spinning and stopped his entire game with ftilt and utilt, mostly.

What does anyone else think of the Sonic ditto? Does Sonic's weight hold a huge disadvantage for him, because he is combo'd pretty easily? Most spin setups tend to place him exactly where the attacking Sonic wants him to be, DI aside.

 

[Wizzrobe]

So the Sonic Ditto. I hate it with a burning passion.

He who tilts most tilts best? Spins get stuffed by Sonic's tilts on most occasion, if my last two Sonic dittos were any indication. I mean, it's obvious to say that the person who knows Sonic best will win, but it's worth noting that it's especially true even when the player is arguably worse. Case in point, my spin and spin combos were bested by my opponent, but because I knew Sonic better than my opponent did by sheer force of experience and practice, I just stopped spinning and stopped his entire game with ftilt and utilt, mostly.

What does anyone else think of the Sonic ditto? Does Sonic's weight hold a huge disadvantage for him, because he is combo'd pretty easily? Most spin setups tend to place him exactly where the attacking Sonic wants him to be, DI aside.

I posted tips on the Sonic MU in the general discussion thread.

Also, f-tilt is good vs spin definitely, but spin is better overall since you can just bait your opponent to f-tilt or whatever then spin at him immediately. I don't think the Sonic you fought was very good if you were just using tilts to beat all his spins.

 

[Solharath]

I noticed, I was waiting for you to answer to this topic.

It's mostly an aerial spin destroyer, he loved using Aerial spins. To be fair, it wasn't all that great, and in WF I took him on seriously and 3-0'd him with Sheik and Sonic, and then sandbagged hard in GF Set 1(and then won, to my own surprise). Amusingly, the Sonic he played harkened entirely back to the one I used at Lordy's v5... the one you said was good. =P

I knew he wouldn't bait, but the absolute range on ftilit could stuff a spin even if it's baited with a WD back. Personally I find utilt to be best against Sonic's aerial spin approaches, because it's fairly quick and I think it has less lag than ftilt. I would speak in specifics but I haven't picked the game up in more than a couple days. Either way, I think we're both fairly right in this regard, as both can be used as mixups in an offensive and defensive manner pretty interchangeably with good rewards.

Wizz, how often to you fight the Sonic Ditto? Not calling you out - I don't fight it very often and when I do I just outplay them with tilts to beat spammy spins, but I am curious if you're more theory crafting or if you're speaking out of experience.

 

[Oro?!]

Wizzrobe 2013- "What you did was okay, but you could've just spun at him"

 

[Wizzrobe]

I noticed, I was waiting for you to answer to this topic.

It's mostly an aerial spin destroyer, he loved using Aerial spins. To be fair, it wasn't all that great, and in WF I took him on seriously and 3-0'd him with Sheik and Sonic, and then sandbagged hard in GF Set 1(and then won, to my own surprise). Amusingly, the Sonic he played harkened entirely back to the one I used at Lordy's v5... the one you said was good. =P

I knew he wouldn't bait, but the absolute range on ftilit could stuff a spin even if it's baited with a WD back. Personally I find utilt to be best against Sonic's aerial spin approaches, because it's fairly quick and I think it has less lag than ftilt. I would speak in specifics but I haven't picked the game up in more than a couple days. Either way, I think we're both fairly right in this regard, as both can be used as mixups in an offensive and defensive manner pretty interchangeably with good rewards.

Wizz, how often to you fight the Sonic Ditto? Not calling you out - I don't fight it very often and when I do I just outplay them with tilts to beat spammy spins, but I am curious if you're more theory crafting or if you're speaking out of experience.

I have had experience, I'm not theorycrafting. Aerial spins are really good too I haven't tried uptilt against it though but I would like to try it out.

 

[Nguz95]

I know you have been talking a lot about the falco matchup, so how about we switch gears to a different Melee veteran. Does anybody here find the Marth matchup difficult? I feel like every time I get close with a spin dash or something he just throws out an fsmash and then I am back to square one. Sonic relies on getting close to his opponents, and nobody is better than Marth at spacing because of tipping. What do you think?

 

[Bombitty]

Play the patience game. weave in and out of his range to bait him into one of his slower grounded swings then punish quickly. If you drop the pressure for even a moment back off and bait again. Just don't rush in headfirst or you're gonna have a really bad time against a good Marth. And just a tip for playing against Marth with any character: WATCH OUT FOR THE MAGNET HANDS. They like to dthrow and either chain grab or leave you at perfect tipped fsmash range. Luckily its easily stopped by just di' ing away from him.

 

[Wizzrobe]

I know you have been talking a lot about the falco matchup, so how about we switch gears to a different Melee veteran. Does anybody here find the Marth matchup difficult? I feel like every time I get close with a spin dash or something he just throws out an fsmash and then I am back to square one. Sonic relies on getting close to his opponents, and nobody is better than Marth at spacing because of tipping. What do you think?

Sounds like you are very predictable with your approaches if that happens a lot. Sonic has so many mix-ups for getting in, be patient with spinning by just sitting their charging and find a good time to let it go. You can spin at him wavedash down before in f-smash range to bait it out then punish him for it. Sonic has so many mix-ups for getting in just don't keep using the same thing cause it will get predictable then you will be punished.

 

[hax0rm4n]

EDIT NVM IM DUMB

 

[Nguz95]

Sounds like you are very predictable with your approaches if that happens a lot. Sonic has so many mix-ups for getting in, be patient with spinning by just sitting their charging and find a good time to let it go. You can spin at him wavedash down before in f-smash range to bait it out then punish him for it. Sonic has so many mix-ups for getting in just don't keep using the same thing cause it will get predictable then you will be punished.

I see now. It seems like Sonic relies a lot on movement and mixups. It looks like being creative is going to be the best bet (and PRACTICE!). I know his down-b is great for baiting because a wavedash can cancel it, is cancelling his side-b worth it? It seems too short and slow to do something his down-b can't.

 

[Nazo]

I see now. It seems like Sonic relies a lot on movement and mixups. It looks like being creative is going to be the best bet (and PRACTICE!). I know his down-b is great for baiting because a wavedash can cancel it, is cancelling his side-b worth it? It seems too short and slow to do something his down-b can't.

There are quite a variety of options with side-b, and makes for a great mix-up tool, seeing as most opponents don't know the difference between sonic's spin moves; Cancelling side-b into a jump-cancelled grab makes for good mix-ups against opponents who won't let go of the shield button.
In fact, I'll just list some options for side-B:
-Jump
-Jump cancel grab
-Wavedash
-Slide kick
-Jump>footstool>waveland
-Jump cancel Usmash

I guess what I'm getting at is, yes, it is worth cancelling side-B. The distance and speed of side-B can really throw off an opponent, especially when they're expecting down-B. It's a great tool for mix-ups and cross-ups, and even better for combos.

 

[Nguz95]

I see. His spin dash allows me to mix it up more. Thank you for clearing that up for me. What are the advantages of using his other throws besides up throw? Down throw seems like it throws them too far away to consistently allow me to follow up with something like a spin dash. His forward and backward throw seem like they are good for getting your opponent off the edge, but in terms of setups for other moves they aren't nearly as good as up throw. Am I missing something?

 

[Tero.]

I use dthrow most of the time and then techchase

 

[Nguz95]

That makes sense. You use Sonic's speed to tech chase really easily. Can you use homing attack to tech chase? Then you could follow up with either his down or side b depending on where you are on the stage.

 

[Nazo]

Use uthrow on heavy weights and fast fallers. Combos are easier after uthrow when you use dair spike to bring them back to the ground. Fthrow and dthrow are great tech chasers as well as combo starters. They're also good for getting the opponent offstage.

 

[leelue]

back throw is good for ending matches with falco in under 90 seconds

 

[Nguz95]

That is a good point. One thing about the JC grab is I don't like pressing the x/y and z buttons simultaneously. I feel like I lose control of the top right part of the controller. Is there any less awkward way to get the JC grab?

 

[Wizzrobe]

That is a good point. One thing about the JC grab is I don't like pressing the x/y and z buttons simultaneously. I feel like I lose control of the top right part of the controller. Is there any less awkward way to get the JC grab?

Not really, lol. I'm not sure why it would feel like that.

 

[JacopeX]

Any idea how to play against Mario in 2.6?

The biggest issue for me when playing a good Mario is his Fireball cancels into more fireballs and that pretty much keeps my options limited down to just blocking or jumping over and doing a baiteable/punishable home attack. It seems like I have no way around it.

 

[Tero.]

Here I have an idea

Don't play 2.6 Sonic

 

[Alex Night]

Be nice, Tero. This thread is about discussing the Sonic Matchups, not bash on the Blue Blur himself.

Any idea how to play against Mario in 2.6?

The biggest issue for me when playing a good Mario is his Fireball cancels into more fireballs and that pretty much keeps my options limited down to just blocking or jumping over and doing a baiteable/punishable home attack. It seems like I have no way around it.

Now, for your question about Mario. I do have plenty of experience playing as Mario as he is my best main in Project M at the moment. The Fireballs do have the potential of zoning out Sonic and coerce him to go somewhere that Mario wants him to be in. Another thing that Mario can do better now with his Fireballs is approaching, especially for Grabs. Mario has always been a combo machine and Sonic is a bit hard-pressed dealing with a smart Mario that knows to not leave himself too open for Sonic's DD+WD movement. He is very capable of dealing with pressure himself and his attacks like DSmash and FSmash have more deceptive range along with less endlag than Sonic's DSmash or FSmash. (Which is kinda suspicious for somebody who is the fastest thing alive.) Dair is one of the attacks to really watch out for Mario as it has great priority that I'm not even sure if Sonic's Fair or Bair can beat which are Sonic's highest priority moves and it can give him breathing room from Sonic's approaches if used right.

Also, getting back onto the stage is a nightmare when Mario is at the edge and ready to guard. It is highly recommended to either recover high or low enough to snap the ledge even if he uses the Cape to turn you around when you use Up B. The Cape is not his only edgeguarding tool, but it is his most safe and deadly trick for edgeguarding Sonic.

While Mario is good at covering his areas against Sonic, Sonic does have his incredible speed to get in on Mario when he makes a mistake and is quite capable of doing combos himself. The best thing to do against Mario is just to keep moving and keep him guessing. Don't let him get you cornered and force you to back up from his Fireballs. Stages that aren't small like Battlefield or Try making Mario recover low so that he is forced to utilize his amazing double Up B recovery. Once he tries to do that, you're free to hit him with your Spring to try knocking him away during the small window when he wall jumps out of the first Up B or try to stage spike him with a quick Homing Attack since HA now sends enemies at an upward angle. (although I'd be careful with that one as not all Mario players will allow you to gimp them that easily as they can still attack quickly with an Upair to knock you away and then recover safely with an Up B.)

Overall, the best thing that I can say about fighting against Mario is just keep mixing up your options and work on Perfect Shielding/Power Shielding his Fireballs as doing that will hurt Mario's approach game. Once he has your movement and style figured out, Sonic doesn't stand a chance against Mario. I know that is something that should be true for Sonic against the rest of the cast, but I feel this is especially true for Mario vs Sonic matchup. While Sonic is fast and capable of pulling off combos, Mario has better priority, range, capable of using Fireballs in approaching as well as zoning, and not to mention much better killing power. In this Matchup, I think that the matchup difference is... 60 - 40 . It all depends on how you bring the fight to Mario with Sonic.

I hope this helps you understand fighting Mario better if only a little.

 

[JacopeX]

Thank you for the response, Alex.

While I am more familiar with Melee Mario than Project M mario, I always target Mario's use of Down-B when recovering since it actually leaves him open at the right height and any distance. Especially for Sonic to go for a f-air and be able to recover with ease. I am aware of the other things (cape, down smash, up air combos, etc) since my friend is a devoted Mario main and know how to play him on the ground and air. But the whole fireball buff just overwhelms me. XD I usually jump out of shield when with aerials as a defensive option into either down air or down b to keep him guessing. But rushing/chasing him down and keeping him from playing his zoning game is my best bet and works. Once you get Mario off stage, everything is in your advantage believe it or not. So yeah, I agree with that. But like you said, power shielding may not be a bad idea to practice now since Sonic can get outzoned.

I don't know if I can time that spring during his wall jump recovery. I usually just try to nair him off the stage where he is left with no jumps or a punishable down b.

 

[GabPR]

I noticed that this thread has been abandoned for a while, any chance of reviving this again? I feel there could be a lot to discuss with the different changes in 3.0 to the cast. Any starters?

 

[Tero.]

Not playing Sonic anymore.
I want 2.5/2.1 back ;_;

 

[Solharath]

I'm still awful at Spacies/Ike. Just really have a bad time with them. Any Sonic's out there with the tricks and tools they use to overcome them, 'specially Ike? I'm really rather barren when it comes to Spacies players where I am, so when a good one does show up I'm just out of luck and get bodied. Seeing as Sonic's moveset exists inside of his hurtbox a good majority of the time, I can't seem to find a solid way to get past Fox's neutral game.

 

[Alex Night]

Well, I think the match-up for Mario vs Sonic is still 60-40 in Mario's favor with the edge going to Mario in terms of edge-guarding Sonic and preventing himself from being edge-guarded.

How about we discuss the Sonic match-ups with the new additions like Samus?

Also, Tero. Sonic is 10x better than what he was in 2.6, so stop trying to ask the PMBR to make him Brawl MK broken like he was in 2.1 and 2.5. He has more killpower and more aerial momentum to help chase his combo'd opponents now which is what he needed.

I'm still awful at Spacies/Ike. Just really have a bad time with them. Any Sonic's out there with the tricks and tools they use to overcome them, 'specially Ike? I'm really rather barren when it comes to Spacies players where I am, so when a good one does show up I'm just out of luck and get bodied. Seeing as Sonic's moveset exists inside of his hurtbox a good majority of the time, I can't seem to find a solid way to get past Fox's neutral game.

Actually, I keep hearing around the Sonic boards that Sonic is the only bad match-up for Fox; like it's 55-45 or 60-40 in Sonic's favor. The trick is mastering on dragging your opponents across the stage with Side B, Jump Cancel, and then Side B again. There's also the Blast Attack to set them up for stronger hits like Fair or Nair. Fox's Neutral Game is pretty strong, but Sonic can play the whole Dash Dance/Wave Dash movement better than Fox. If the problem is that you keep getting trapped in your shield by Shine to Nair pressure, then you gotta buffer a roll away from Fox.

As for Falco, I am not sure. I know that the Side B Jump Canceling technique is very useful for all three spacies. Whether you lead it into another Side B, a Jump Canceled Grab, or maybe even a FSmash. I hope this helps you a little bit.

 

[Tero.]

Also, Tero. Sonic is 10x better than what he was in 2.6, so stop trying to ask the PMBR to make him Brawl MK broken like he was in 2.1 and 2.5. He has more killpower and more aerial momentum to help chase his combo'd opponents now which is what he needed.

I'm not asking for anything, lol
and I don't care if he's better now he is not as fun as he used to be, that's why I switched to another character

 

[Nguz95]

Maybe it's a good thing you switched then...

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Not playing Sonic anymore.
I want 2.5/2.1 back ;_;

Thank god that nightmare is over

 

[DireDrop]

Actually, I keep hearing around the Sonic boards that Sonic is the only bad match-up for Fox; like it's 55-45 or 60-40 in Sonic's favor.

That's it. Sonic for SS tier 2014.

As for Falco, I am not sure. I know that the Side B Jump Canceling technique is very useful for all three spacies. Whether you lead it into another Side B, a Jump Canceled Grab, or maybe even a FSmash. I hope this helps you a little bit.

Couldn't Sonic approach the Falco matchup the same way a Marth would? With lot's of powershielded lasers and hard punishes? Sonic certainly has the speed to move around Falco like Marth does, and it sounds like his combo game is just as strong, if not stronger.