List of HDTV's with no(Or little) lag

[ajp_anton]

That TV could very well have lag on it, some CRTs will lag.

On the other hand I have also seen M2K and a few other players do something similar at the start of a match for completely different reasons (they usually claim their controllers aren't working correctly. They are often in PRISTINE or BRAND ****ING NEW condition). Could it be lag? Sure. It could also be the player's nerves or hand warm-ups.

I've never met Armada (seems like a pretty cool dude though), so I can't really say with any certainty what's going on there.

Dash dancing is how people (at least over here) test the lag. Armada never complains about his controller, and IIRC at the first Genesis he still used his very first 5-year-old controller.
That they switched because of lag isn't just my guess though, it's a fact. In case that's what you were questioning.

You're right though that the console lag is meaningless because it is pretty constant and will always be there. But some people don't believe it is there, which is why it was discussed for so long.

 

[Zankoku]

If console lag is under a frame, how would the difference be noticeable? The TV itself couldn't output the difference.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

Yes I did. Read above, all CRTs are not created equal. I have encountered a few that lag like crazy, and they're usually the knock-off garbage displays.

uh... dang. i was directing it more at... well, ok, you never said crts didn't lag (but the entire discussion before your post was about that... even if it's not 100% accurate). i did say before that some newer crts had some post-processing... i haven't realized it could be -that bad- though.

i'm trying to direct the conversation toward either finding out the actual tvs used, or - what has been going on - trying to figure out -why- crts could be so bad, there, as opposed to here.

arguing ajp isn't really going anywhere, and while we had been arguing crt lag you hadn't said anything about it, just some bits about console processes. so... if you know of some crts that can lag badly, please inform us. part of the question is whether or not there is a difference between us/europe tvs, and part is whether or not crt hardware makes it possible for lag on a 'standard' crt (no post-processing filter).

novice showed a video, all his tvs were lagging, all were crts. his frequency of laggy crts goes contrary to popular knowledge here that crts are generally lagless. as we know how a crt works, i guess it either has to be post-processing, or, because the options are few, it's how the signal is routed (which... was discussed a little bit at least... somewhere.)

I'd highly recommend that nobody make any inferences as to the laggy-ness of their TV without doing some type of standardized testing (webcam finger/screen correlation test is easiest) between the two.

kind of trying to get back to this.


(ajp, still interested in which that best tv of yours is.)

 

[Zankoku]

Post-processing is always bad, and if it was applied in a time when CRTs were still standard (this is the first I'm hearing of CRTs attempting to output progressive signal instead of interlaced) then I'm not surprised that such TVs would lag.

 

[Massive]

If console lag is under a frame, how would the difference be noticeable? The TV itself couldn't output the difference.

"Console lag" isn't really lag. The console takes an amount of time to create the images from the screen before we see the results.

The console isn't delaying anything, it's producing the response at the exact time it's supposed to. The console can't "lag".

I say again:
Lag is a delay of experiencing the expected response to an action.
The delay between when you hit a direction of the stick and the console outputs it is the expected response, it is not possible to call this lag because it is the default existence of the game.

(this is the first I'm hearing of CRTs attempting to output progressive signal instead of interlaced)

They're still interlaced actually! The TVs anyway, Computer monitors were usually not interlaced.
Since CRTs are analog displays, they had to use some tricks to clean up the picture. A common one was delaying the input for a few milliseconds and running it over the main signal to smooth out edges (kind of like anti-aliasing) called a "comb filter". This was usually a pretty fast maneuver, but some manufacturers would cut corners and use cheaper ICs for timing or processing, adding a delay.

Those RF modulators everyone used to use for their TVs also had widely varying delays introduced based on the quality of the modulator. The Nintendo brand ones were usually fine, but some of the off brand ones were capable of introducing a few ms of delay (there's a reason the Nintendo brand was always $20 for an adapter and the off brands were $10).

Still other manufacturers would try to clean up the audio or normalize the video signal to get rid of noise in various ways, either of those operations could easily add delay.

High end manufacturers would often have all of these features using an (at the time) cutting edge board to do processing. You can see this in some of the later model CRT Televisions that will have a very clear, crisp picture and no lag. This means they are able to preform the cleanup and display in less time than it takes for a frame to pass.

Those are the TVs you want to use.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

er.. I thought if the technology allowed it, crts could display progressive (60)? in a tv.

 

[Massive]

er.. I thought if the technology allowed it, crts could display progressive (60)? in a tv.

CRTs can do HD resolutions, There are HD CRTs (the originals were computer monitors). Sometimes they have latency issues with video games too, usually due to deinterlacing.

Here is some more info on progressive displays if you're interested..

 

[ajp_anton]

"Console lag" isn't really lag. The console takes an amount of time to create the images from the screen before we see the results.

The console isn't delaying anything, it's producing the response at the exact time it's supposed to. The console can't "lag".

I say again:
Lag is a delay of experiencing the expected response to an action.
The delay between when you hit a direction of the stick and the console outputs it is the expected response, it is not possible to call this lag because it is the default existence of the game.

I disagree on your definition of "lag". When you move your fingers, you expect their actions to happen immediately, but they don't. It's not intended that there's few frames of lag, it's just an unfortunate limitation of the technology used. Lagging means something is delayed of behind, and that's exactly what the display is in relation to your fingers. Whether this lag is noticeable or not because we are used to it is irrelevant.


I don't know the exact model of any TV really, I never look at those. But I think Armada said something that in general Philips TVs are the worst. But there are exceptions, I *think* the good TV I mentioned is Philips =).
And I don't think there's a US/Eur difference. As I said before, I personally experienced more lag in the US, but I may have been looking for it more than usual.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

CRTs can do HD resolutions, There are HD CRTs (the originals were computer monitors). Sometimes they have latency issues with video games too, usually due to deinterlacing.

Here is some more info on progressive displays if you're interested..

I understand the hd res part. I understand the computer monitor part. I've read that article (before and after you linked me), and I still can't see where it says whether crts can do progressive. It says HDTVs can, but with the implication that hdtv is 480p60<, implying that hdtvs are non-crt displays, because we know of no crt-hdtvs. It says that SDTV tvs can't, implying that 480i tvs are crt, but we know this. It doesn't make mention of EDTV though (480p60), and I can't find information on edtv-crts (from wikipedia at least).

Regardless, edtv-crts exist, so.. what about those?

I don't know the exact model of any TV really, I never look at those. But I think Armada said something that in general Philips TVs are the worst.

But there are exceptions, I *think* the good TV I mentioned is Philips =).

yay

 

[Kal]

Pretty much just ignore everything I've ever said about televisions, ever.

 

[ajp_anton]

Philip, it has nothing to do with CRTs. CRT, Plasma, LCD, and LED are just types of TVs. CRTs are generally more expensive to make than the others, though the technology is more reliable (and bulkier). An SDTV is a TV whose resolution is less than 480i. An EDTV is a TV whose resolution is 480p. And, finally, an HDTV is a TV whose resolution is 720i, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. So you could have a CRT that is an HDTV, or you could have a plasma screen that is an SDTV.

In other words, the first set of terms: CRT, Plasma, LCD, and LED; is mutually exclusive from the second set of terms: SDTV, EDTV, and HDTV. The confusion probably arises from the fact that Plasma TVs, LCD TVs, and LED TVs are all HD by convention. There's nothing stopping a company from producing an LED SDTV, as far as I'm aware.

One of the weirdest posts I've read...

Philips is a brand that makes TVs, including CRTs. It's possible that they make more use of cheap components that lag more.
LED is not a type of TV, it's a type of backlight for LCD panels. The other common type is CCFL.
SDTV is 480i, not less.
720i doesn't exist.
Plasma can't be "SDTV", because they are progressive.
LED can't be "SDTV", because they are a type of LCD, and they are progressive.

 

[Kal]

Well, I stand corrected, and visibly ignorant on the topic. I would like to point out that I meant to say "SDTV is 480i," but that probably won't excuse the rather large number of errors in my post.

What's that expression? "I've got egg on my face."

 

[Varist]

i've got egg in my pants

 

[Kal]

or are you just happy to see me?

 

[Veetaak]

You just got AJP'D

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

novice showed a video, all his tvs were lagging, all were crts. his frequency of laggy crts goes contrary to popular knowledge here that crts are generally lagless. as we know how a crt works, i guess it either has to be post-processing, or, because the options are few, it's how the signal is routed (which... was discussed a little bit at least... somewhere.)

Just a clarification, only one of my CRTs has noticeable lag. The apparent lag on other TVs is due to the ba quality of the video.

 

[Mazor]

My knowledge of TVs isn't very extensive and I don't feel that I have anything to contribute to the main discussion here, however this caught my interest:

The gamecube polls controllers a minimum of every 6ms during the frame (twice per frame, basically).

I haven't measured it myself as I don't have an oscilloscope or any other means of measuring right now, but the only place I've seen someone post the results of their measurements states that the poll frequency is 12ms.

If this is incorrect, which it may well be, can you link to a source for your number?

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

kal...lol. <insert birdo clip from smb tv show>

Just a clarification, only one of my CRTs has noticeable lag. The apparent lag on other TVs is due to the ba quality of the video.

hm. well, I wasn't looking at your video quality, and I wasn't depending on the synch of the audio either, but it still looked like they lagged a little... like the amount that a past-few-years-new-ish lcd would.
regardless, that last one seems to prove the point either way.

I haven't measured it myself as I don't have an oscilloscope or any other means of measuring right now, but the only place I've seen someone post the results of their measurements states that the poll frequency is 12ms.

If this is incorrect, which it may well be, can you link to a source for your number?

This is the type of document that first popped into my head regarding hardware discussion, but... I figured looking up the stats themselves was moot to the concept of the point we were trying to argue. (And if you note his idea that polling is controlled by the individual game...)

12ms is the interval time for when the gamecube probes to see if a controller is connected or not, but when it's connected, the update interval is 6ms. The paragraph below:

With an official controller attached, there is a typical interval of about 6ms between successive updates. In fact, I believe that the update rate is controlled by the game, perhaps divided from the video frame rate. Each update lasts around 348us.

Also, it seems like this entire conversation has converged into one two main points now (with the assumption that the interest is console-->tv lag only, and that the lag is unnecessary[-to-show-the-picture] lag, of course):
-There are CRTs that lag, but we need to know the brand/model of them to understand why
-There might be newer LCDs that don't lag, but it hasn't been sufficiently shown that they don't.

 

[Massive]

That's the article where my info came from.

Someone with a functioning oscilloscope (mine broke in college and now sits in my closet mocking me) can check exactly how frequently the controller is polled by connecting it to your GCN controller while it's playing smash.

That or they can go through the emulated game code and mark every time the interpreted gamecode does a MOV instruction from the virtual gamepad register (noooooo thank you, lol).

 

[DRGN]

This is all very interesting.

I haven't read it all yet, but because this thread is technical and intending for precision I wanted to point out a slight distinction in terms of frames. As most of you know, an interlaced pattern alternates between displaying one set of all the even rows (of all the pixels on the screen) and one set of all the odd rows. Each of these sets is called a field. (Also, because they're only displaying to every other row, a field is actually half the vertical resolution of whatever it's intending to be (an 8:3 aspect ratio in most cases).) Two fields together are one frame (together using all of the pixels on the screen). Though that is not to say that two fields are part of the same image; they're rendered at different times and are different images. NTSC Melee makes ~60 passes over the screen in one second. But these passes are of fields. So while you could probably argue that Melee is 60 frames per second because that's the rate it creates images at, what you're usually actually seeing when you play is 60 fields per second (or 30 frames per second). Unless playing with progressive scan of course, but most people don't.

I hope that's not confusing and doesn't create misconceptions.


Anyways, on to the meat-and-potatoes of this topic, I think it's important to talk about which outputs are being used or compared. The GameCubes can output a few different video signals, some (if not all) of which I'm assuming would be processed at different speeds by even the same device.

Older models (DOL-001 (and I just learned that the models lacking it are DOL-101)) have a digital output of 480p (YCbCr, a form of component video), which I think was already talked about somewhere in here. However, the cables used with those ports (these cubes have a separate port to the left of the standard analog port most people use) include circuitry that converts the digital to an analog form of component (YPbPr).

Our other options are a) S-video (NTSC only), b) a different (RGB) component output from the analog port (PAL only), and c) the usual composite. All analog. So all the connections commonly available to us are analog. But at least the progressive from the digital port should help a lot towards minimizing lag. And I bet there's a way to use that unconverted digital output for digital displays.


Also, VGA (like that of common computer monitors) uses analog component video (plus horizontal and vertical sync). Though it's a different type of component video: RGB. Quite different from the YPbPr component signal. At first I was thinking maybe we couldn't use the RGB component from the analog port because I was thinking it's interlaced. But I totally forgot that you can boot some games to change that port to output in progressive scan mode (I only thought of the digital port to offer that)! I haven't tried it (yet), but we should be able to use that for VGA. Then all that's needed is the H/V sync, but I'm not gonna get into that now (it's freaking 8 in the morning). And although NTSC cubes offer S-video instead, I'm guessing it's just what's connected from the motherboard to the port. So if you want the RGB, you could probably open it up and get it anyways. I'm gonna look into that later.

There are a couple mods around that show you how you can get RGB signals from the circuitry in the official component cables for the digital output, also. So you don't have to open your cube. But it seems to me that you'd just be adding more processing.


It could be worth comparing these to the Wii's video outputs as well.

 

[DRGN]

Alright, so I'm still very interested in what the GC & Wii offer in terms of video output and what we can do with them. I've found a few things and thought I would post some of it for the few others out there also interested (and so maybe we could help each other out!).

I was right about RGB existing natively in the cube (which makes sense since YCbCr is actually derived from it), however I was unfortunately wrong about just popping off the case and having at it. The colorspace conversion is done within the GPU (the "Flipper" chip), inaccessible* to us. The data then goes to a different chip on the motherboard, the video encoder (U6 on the underside of the board) as YCbCr. The data bus that transfers this is actually what the digital video port (on the earlier cube models) links into, conveniently preceding pretty much all of the standard conversions! A nice offer by Nintendo, even if it was short-lived. And this means that it doesn't matter if you don't have that fancy digital output port; any GameCube can still be hooked up with component cables (which yield a much better picture).

Another thing: The video encoder (digital to analog converter - DAC) is what converts the digital YCbCr to the various analog outputs (depending on the system's region), offered via the standard A/V plug on the back of the system. A different chip isn't used for each region. The chip can actually operate in different modes to produce either Composite and S-Video (for NTSC) or Composite and RGB (for PAL).** The mode is selected by part of the digital video input (during the blanking period the CbCr lines give timing information). Tracing that back to the GPU, that mode select is determined by registers, which are, I assume, essentially the GameCube's OS registry. This makes a lot of sense because it means the hardware can all be the same from region to region, making the system easier to produce. I haven't done a whole lot of searching on how to change these registers yet. But it would be neat to have a NTSC cube output RGB. You could use that for VGA and a standard computer monitor. I'm betting it's much easier on the Wii since there's so much out there on softmodding.


*Before going to be converted to YCbCr, the RGB video is buffered into the main memory chips on the board (the two "MoSys" chips, U3/U4, above the Flipper). So theoretically you could access this since it's external to the chip. But I'm not really sure how this happens (i.e. what pins, serial/parallel, etc.), so I'm not sure how one would tap into this. Also, the interface that then accesses and converts this to YCbCr I think does other adjustments such as setting the resolution (also configurable by registers btw) and cropping.
**It can actually run in 4 different modes: NTSC, PAL, M-PAL, and debug.

 

[Zoler]

Generally america has way more laggy tvs than EU, i noticed this at both apex and genesis 2. I was also astonished that any American i told about these tvs they wouldnt feel anything.

 

[Massive]

Generally america has way more laggy tvs than EU, i noticed this at both apex and genesis 2. I was also astonished that any American i told about these tvs they wouldnt feel anything.

EU complain about lag, Americans complain about controllers.

This is turning into my favorite stereotype.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

oh hey bra.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Generally america has way more laggy tvs than EU, i noticed this at both apex and genesis 2. I was also astonished that any American i told about these tvs they wouldnt feel anything.

If most of the TVs are laggy, then it's what they're used to, so they won't notice it. When I first started I used an HD TV and didn't believe there was any lag on it. I only realize it existed once I played on a CRT. If they play on a CRT that lags, then they won't realize it lags until they play on a CRT that doesn't lag.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

HD is overrated.

 

[Acryte]

DVDO EDGE comin in the mail apparently it can deinterlace AND upscale in half a frame when in game mode, and to be honest, i'm sending 480p so I don't even need it to deinterlace. That means the lag should be completely gone (crosses fingers).

Edit: this is sick because now I will be able to play without input lag on other people's hdtvs too

 

[Massive]

DVDO EDGE comin in the mail apparently it can deinterlace AND upscale in half a frame when in game mode, and to be honest, i'm sending 480p so I don't even need it to deinterlace. That means the lag should be completely gone (crosses fingers).

Edit: this is sick because now I will be able to play without input lag on other people's hdtvs too

Keep us updated on how it performs so we can start a list of scalers. It's going to become a big deal in a few years when CRTs get very hard to find.

 

[standardtoaster]

Craigslist says hi.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

Alright. Massive, ajp_anton, in case you guys haven't already, I think I pretty much confirmed the cause of most of our conversation: CRTs [here] lag totally because of the post-processing filters later-models got.

I haven't played smash in awhile, but today we borrowed a fairly newer, flat-screened CRT to get some games going. We immediately noticed a fairly considerable lag, and it continued to bug us through the rest of our time: not enough lag to be able to compensate for by playing ahead, but just enough lag to throw our timing off and make our playing feel slower.

It's weird, but one of us knew about this problem years ago, and how it mostly affected flat-screened crts. I was skeptical for most of the time, because we played on a giant flat-screen CRT that was especially picked out just for smash, and it didn't lag - so I knew there must have been something else.

Anyway, I should have tried to investigate that more intently before, but, basically, I'm now convinced that's the reason why ajp_anton is right about the crts lagging, while massive and I are still right about how 'normally', there is none, and can't be any.


Case closed, I say.

 

[ajp_anton]

I'm still certain there's some kind of capacitive lag on every TV. The input voltage does not directly translate into an image, some processing has to be made always.

I have a camera video showing a TV which is often used for finals on Swedish tournaments because it's both big and the least laggy TV around. Rounding down (low temporal resolution -> high uncertainty), it shows >50ms of input lag between controller inputs and the screen. However I don't know how that is divided up between the GC and the TV.
This is proof enough for me, but obviously I can't prove to you that the TV feels lag-free to actually play on, so whatever.

It's an old fat TV with all (?) processing disabled. The bars for contrast etc. are set to middle, which results in a noticeable reduction in lag.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

Hm.

I'm still certain there's some kind of capacitive lag on every TV. The input voltage does not directly translate into an image, some processing has to be made always.

Yeah. Agreed. We can say, 'for sure', that the 'theoretical' minimum lag time has to be at least ~17ms, because of how the game graphics will be processed. After that, I wonder how things work.

I have a camera video showing a TV which is often used for finals on Swedish tournaments because it's both big and the least laggy TV around. Rounding down (low temporal resolution -> high uncertainty), it shows >50ms of input lag between controller inputs and the screen. However I don't know how that is divided up between the GC and the TV.
This is proof enough for me, but obviously I can't prove to you that the TV feels lag-free to actually play on, so whatever.

I think it's interesting how we can say what feels immediate or not, yeah.

Nice job testing that out, couple questions just to confirm though: FPS of your camera? Could add some time. Action that you're recording? (I'm assuming you're using a the control stick, but just in case you're accounting for deadzone or for the button to be depressed all the way.)

If what you're saying checks out, though, it seems like the minimum lag could be between 2-3 frames worth. And since we can already say that 1 frame (the absolute minimum) feels 'immediate', I'd venture to say that an extra frame would go unnoticed (every time). Well. It still leaves 1-2 frames to be accounted for, I suppose.

Is a 3-frame delay noticeable? Rather, is a 3-frame delay what we've all been used to this entire time, and, even though we may be able to say 'Yeah, it still lags, by just half a hair,' we can also say 'but it doesn't get better than this.'
I think it seems so.

It's an old fat TV with all (?) processing disabled. The bars for contrast etc. are set to middle, which results in a noticeable reduction in lag.

Now that you mention that (again), that seems to make more sense. Yeah. Interesting. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

I don't think it's possible to have a completely lagless HDTV. I have one that is really, really good on game mode and you can't notice any lag, but once I got a CRT it just felt much, much, much snappier.

There's no substitute IMO, just get a CRT. They're fantastic, and you may as well have one for older consoles anyway. They look way better on them than on flatscreens.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

im sure as **** that pos tv lags.
the only hdtvs that lag just a little bit (on the level of a bad/newer crt) are those without postprocessing which is extremly rare. those are the ones they use at airports and the like just to display information. you cant just buy them in a store. every single modern tv, even older hdtvs, have postprocessing that you cant turn off completely. "gaming mode" turns it off slightly, but not all of it (since lcds are far more dependent on postprocessing to get a decent image quality).

som old sdtv lcds have no postprocessing which makes it playable for smash. my portable gamecube lcd from joytech is one of those.

many newer crts have postprocessing aswell, those are usually the crts that lag the most. you can often turn off lots off it or even all which will improve lag significantly (anybody who brings a tv to a tournament should turn that **** off if possible). old crts are the best for smash.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

im sure as **** that pos tv lags.
the only hdtvs that lag just a little bit (on the level of a bad/newer crt) are those without postprocessing which is extremly rare.

som old sdtv lcds have no postprocessing which makes it playable for smash. my portable gamecube lcd from joytech is one of those.

On HDTVs it's not just the postprocessing that causes it to lag, but also the upscaling (processing) to bring the gamecube's signal up to match the HDTV's native resolution. (A sort of 'preprocessing', if you will.)

They make some 'TFT LCD' 640x480 display panels (LCDs with a native resolution that matches the gamecube's resolution), but I believe they're mostly used as components for building something else. e.g. portable console mods.T

Also, those portable gamecube LCDs lag, I used to have one.

 

[ajp_anton]

The camera was 30fps, hence "low temporal resolution", and the lag veried between 2-3 frames. I rounded this down to 2 frames = 67ms, and just said >50ms.
I filmed both moving the hand left/right in the character select screen, and hitting (down+) B for a shine with Falco. Same result for both.

And I'm pretty sure the "theoretical minimum lag" is much more than 17ms...

Meaningless note, but 640x480 isn't the resolution of the signal. It has 480 lines, but analog has "infinite" resolution. You can sample this signal at whatever resolution you want, but 640 pixels per line makes sense because that's what the GC uses internally afaik, or close to it, and it gets you a 4:3 ratio.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

Oops, temporal=time. I should have googled that to make sure. And 67ms. Got it. (I should have figured that out myself.)

And, note is noted.

Question:[COLLAPSE="Can one distinguish a 1-frame lag difference (16.7ms)?"]So, say our lag is 3 frames, total. That's basically 50ms (I wonder if it's actually closer to ~30, but let's say 50).

We can notice a difference between, say, 3 frames and 6 frames (another 50ms difference, so 1/10 of a second lag compared to 1/20), but can we 'perceptually' notice a difference between 3 frames a 4? That is, in a 'blind' test, could we tell which setup lags more, if one only lags by 1 frame more?

-if so-

It seems we can estimate the maximum amount of lag a tv can have for a 'sensitive' player to be able to play on without complaint, by combining the lag that already exists (and that we're used to, what we call and feel as 'immediate') with the margin of detection (or whatever) we have for frame differences in lag.[/COLLAPSE]Or, the question I'd rather have answered:

Can we just call 2-3 frames the maximum and minimum amount of lag a tv has before it's considered laggy, based on what we normally call and feel as 'immediate' (and based on your numbers shown here)?

(If I had a high speed camera I'd also test this myself... mm, go pro hero 2...)

 

[ajp_anton]

Notice that 67ms is 4 frames at 60fps (it was 2 frames on a 30fps camera), and that 67ms is basically lagless. Swedish players reading this can comment on what they think of Jack's TV (the bigger one), especially Armada who plays most of his finals on it.

To be honest, I don't think 50ms or so is much lag at all. Our consciousness brain sits behind our sensor system and so much processing that we basically live 100ms in the past. Basic primitive reflexes can react faster if they bypass most of the processing, but that's another matter. Adding a little more lag isn't very noticeable, because we are already used to it.

I doubt one could see a difference between for example 5-6 frames. If you think one lags, you probably think the other does too.
If we are on the limit of it feeling laggy and you do a large number of blind tests, 6f might feel laggy more often than 5f, but both will occasionally feel laggy and sometimes not.
3f vs 6f will separate the results further, but I don't really know what your point here is =).

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

On HDTVs it's not just the postprocessing that causes it to lag, but also the upscaling (processing) to bring the gamecube's signal up to match the HDTV's native resolution. (A sort of 'preprocessing', if you will.)

They make some 'TFT LCD' 640x480 display panels (LCDs with a native resolution that matches the gamecube's resolution), but I believe they're mostly used as components for building something else. e.g. portable console mods.T

Also, those portable gamecube LCDs lag, I used to have one.

I included upscaling in the postprocessing, it happens at the same time as the other processing, ie before the picture is displayed on the screen. the "post" refers to the fact that it happens after the picture has been sent to the tv.
Yes they lag slightly, but some of them more then others. I was lucky with the one I got.
Also remember that old lcds look way laggier then they are because they have tons of blur.

 

[-Philip Coast Philip-]

I included upscaling in the postprocessing, it happens at the same time as the other processing, ie before the picture is displayed on the screen. the "post" refers to the fact that it happens after the picture has been sent to the tv.
Yes they lag slightly, but some of them more then others. I was lucky with the one I got.
Also remember that old lcds look way laggier then they are because they have tons of blur.

Ah. Yeah. I was just making sure, the upscaling has to happen, even if you turn off the other postprocessing.
And, yeah, I do remember it having a fairly high response time... sometimes I kind of miss that ghost-ly effect games could have...

ajp-

Yeah. I just want a baseline, to say, ok, if your tv lags more than this, then it will be considered 'laggy'. Perhaps then we can compare and, maybe at some point, find out if there are any HDTVs that are actually 'lag-free' (or fall below the baseline of lagginess, rather).