Let's Talk Items

[LiteralGrill]

I had created a poll about items over on the 3DS board and noticed that due to a good bit of misinformation and my wording the question poorly the discussion did not get very far. Since then, we've been discussing items on the 3DSA Social Group, so I wanted to bring some ideas we've had here as well as present some things to help avoid certain parts of the discussion that will be useless.

SO ACTUALLY READ THE OP BEFORE COMMENTING!
​

If not when I call you out on not reading and being a drag on the discussion deal with how stupid you are

- - - - -​

First, the pointers:

• Items were originally banned in Melee as you could not turn random exploding capsules off. Yes randomness is also a factor on why items are currently banned, but it was not the original cause for banning. Capsules CAN be turned off in Brawl yet items were not tested for mainstream play in Brawl
• Items in Brawl DO NOT SPAWN NEAR THE LOSING PLAYER.
• Almost all people who advocate for items DO NOT WANT BOB-OMBS ON. As the most rediculous of items are always mentioned in items debates it is best to remind people that to have items legal we would want to test them just like stages or any other tactics. A great example of this was Item Standard Play (or ISP).
• For anyone who wants to bring up Ken vs. CPU at EVO 2008 here are the videos of those matches. Match 1 - Match 2 - Match 3
• WHOBO once held an ISP tournament that was a great success (even @Mew2King participated, I love to hear what you think btw M2K). ISP events can and have been done in other places as well, they are not impossible to run as some people suggest.

- - - - -​

Now, we have been disccussing in the 3DSA social group the possibility of using Smash 3DS to:

B ) To create a scene that can/will act as a stepping stone for the introduction of casual players into the traditional tournament scene without forcing them to 'abandon' all of the conventions of casual play.

C ) To create a scene that current tournament players can go to, if they so choose, that has an alternate style of play than what they are used to.

Goals Jack presented in his ISP thread. As many people already consider Smash Wii U to be the "competitive" Smash, we thought it way be a worthy goal to use Smash 3DS as a tool to help build up the entire smash scene by reaching out to new players and helping them work their way into the scene without the huge "culture shock" of suddenly seeing all items off and so many stages banned.

I would like to get your opinion on this idea, and any suggestions on how that idea could be realized to benefit the competitive scene, as well as open this up as a place to discuss items in general. Please don't start a flame war, read the OP as I already suggested, and try to keep an open mind as I know ISP is not for everyone (but some do love it).

Ready! Set! Go!!!!!!​

 

[Muster]

I remember someone having an idea to implement items into the counterpick formula, with you being able to ban certain items a the start of the match, do you think this could be a good idea if implemented correctly?

I believe Sakurai balanced players with items on, so maybe the tier list won't be so defined in the isp set.

 

[IsmaR]

I'll be watching this closely. Extremist opinions on both sides are inevitable, but discussion should still remain relatively civil. If any flaming or trolling breaks out, it will be dealt with harshly. That said, it shouldn't get to that point.

Best of luck with this, Capps.

Personally, I enjoy the idea of items in a competitive environment (probably from also being a part of communities like Mario Kart), but understand why most shrug them off without so much as a second thought.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Why not just have two tournament types?

One that allows items.

One that doesn't.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Why not just have two tournament types?

One that allows items.

One that doesn't.

I don't think tournaments that host multiple games would bother hosting two different versions of the same game, especially since Smash isn't a top tier competitive fighting game either.

I wouldn't mind the introduction of items honestly, but it depends on what items are allowed. Things like the Spam-Fan can go to hell, while I don't mind things like the Ray Gun which can easily be avoided.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I remember someone having an idea to implement items into the counterpick formula, with you being able to ban certain items a the start of the match, do you think this could be a good idea if implemented correctly?

I believe Sakurai balanced players with items on, so maybe the tier list won't be so defined in the isp set.

ISP had item counterpicks, something along these lines is definitely possible.

Why not just have two tournament types?

One that allows items.

One that doesn't.

You pretty much just took my suggestion. Wii U = Itemless, 3DS = Items. The idea would be to allow a game that is more friendly towards the new players just coming to our community (and to give us old timers maybe sometime new to try just for fun) while along side that having the play we are generally more accustomed to so these new players can check it out and have an easier time crossing over then they do now in the cold turkey fashion.

I don't think tournaments that host multiple games would bother hosting two different versions of the same game, especially since Smash isn't a top tier competitive fighting game either.

I wouldn't mind the introduction of items honestly, but it depends on what items are allowed. Things like the Spam-Fan can go to hell, while I don't mind things like the Ray Gun which can easily be avoided.

You might be surprised on the first part, but on the second that's why I mentioned how ISP tested the items and made a strong criteria for what items should stay legal and which should be banned. If you've tried out the ISP rules there really aren't any items that are that bad (possibly minus in the counterpick category but even then they must be CPed.) I would hope if we tried to introduce items in this format the same kind of testing would occur.

I'll be watching this closely. Extremist opinions on both sides are inevitable, but discussion should still remain relatively civil. If any flaming or trolling breaks out, it will be dealt with harshly. That said, it shouldn't get to that point.

Best of luck with this, Capps.

Personally, I enjoy the idea of items in a competitive environment (probably from also being a part of communities like Mario Kart), but understand why most shrug them off without so much as a second thought.

Thanks for the support, it'll be nice to know someone is watching so things don't get out of hand. I figured we really gotta have a civil and educated discussion about items at some point, so here's the opportunity. And you should try ISP in Brawl sometime, I've been doing it with my wife as she prefers at least some items on, she's enjoyed it quite thoroughly/inspired me to reconsider items.

 

[DaDavid]

I'm confused though, is the suggestion to simply make 3DS the item version and Wii U the... not item version? Why not allow both tourney types on both platforms? If I'm misunderstanding than ignore this section I guess.

I think the idea of regulating items but allowing them to be a factor is great. In my own personal life, me and my brothers have made a list of items in Brawl that we don't allow on whenever we are playing in anything even resembling a "serious" way. Hell even when we're just having fun matches we all have veto powers regarding what items to turn on.

I do believe that being able to play with items on should be promoted, since after all, it's not like the better player isn't still going to win most of the time. That "most" is what I've heard some people raise questions about, but honestly the better player only wins "most" of the time in no-item play anyway. There's always some element of "luck" whether it's in or outside the game.

 

[Renji64]

The who point of items off is competive play why have touraments with items kinda defeats the purpose.

 

[Substitution]

Let me put this here.

"Sure, I want this to be big too. But we can't just switch to new rules because of a new audience.
We can still be the Smash game people know and love. We don't need to completely change.
It's entirely possible to make this a side event.
We can't just alienate players so we can cater to another. It's like taking apples out because of the oranges crowd."

And:
"It's not like we can't try items. But consider trying it as two separate events.
That way the items crowd can have their scene. And the non-items crowd can have their scene.
We won't have to alienate one crowd. As there will be opportunities for both."

 

[LiteralGrill]

The who point of items off is competive play why have touraments with items kinda defeats the purpose.

1. There are people who enjoy items
2. Items play is STILL COMPETITIVE.
3. Read the OP (loads more there)

I'm confused though, is the suggestion to simply make 3DS the item version and Wii U the... not item version? Why not allow both tourney types on both platforms? If I'm misunderstanding than ignore this section I guess.

As odd as it sounds yes that's what I'm suggesting. holding ISP as a side event has been nice, but since most people have already determined that competitive play will take place on the Wii U and the 3DS will mostly be for side events anyways, why not make a large distinction and use the 3DS as a tool to introduce new people?

 

[pitthekit]

Too bad you can have fixed neutral spawn locations for items... It would remove the element of randomness while rewarding the player with the most stage control.


Ex. Every one minute a banana peel will spawn in the middle of final destination.
Therefore the person who is closest to neutral has the best possibility to pick up the banana peel.

 

[Substitution]

As odd as it sounds yes that's what I'm suggesting. holding ISP as a side event has been nice, but since most people have already determined that competitive play will take place on the Wii U and the 3DS will mostly be for side events anyways, why not make a large distinction and use the 3DS as a tool to introduce new people?

So then we should just give up on the people who want to play the 3DS non-items?
Like I've said. It's ridiculous to alienate one crowd just to bring in another.
We wouldn't be drawing in people, we instead would be replacing.

Sure, the 3DS scene might not be as big. But that doesn't mean anything.
We can still bring to game everyone loves and bring in others.
We'd simply make two different scenes. Non-item, and item.
That way we draw in two crowds.

 

[DaDavid]

As odd as it sounds yes that's what I'm suggesting. holding ISP as a side event has been nice, but since most people have already determined that competitive play will take place on the Wii U and the 3DS will mostly be for side events anyways, why not make a large distinction and use the 3DS as a tool to introduce new people?

I understand your reasoning more clearly now, but I still think it's a bit more alienating for 3DS players who want no-item play and Wii U players who would enjoy ISP. I don't necessarily think it couldn't work out long-term though, if we think of the separation between the consoles as a temporary means to an ends.

Wii U players see that ISP has been working out well on the 3DS and thus the conversation can begin about whether or not ISP at the Wii U level should be potentially parallel to no-item play, with the eventual goal of both gameplay types being respected and common on both platforms.

 

[Muster]

As odd as it sounds yes that's what I'm suggesting. holding ISP as a side event has been nice, but since most people have already determined that competitive play will take place on the Wii U and the 3DS will mostly be for side events anyways, why not make a large distinction and use the 3DS as a tool to introduce new people?

This is actually a really great idea. While Sm4sh for the wii u will obviously be the main event, (looks better, can be recorded easier, less consoles to keep track of, will likely run better) The 3ds scene being devoted to introducing newbies to the scene will certainly be a great way of using all that sm4sh has to offer for us. It's also a great way to differentiate the games, as the 3ds version would certainly have troubles standing on its own if it has the same ruleset as the wii u version.

Just as a little side question: what do you think about the items shown off so far? which do you think will be legal or banned based off the information we currently know?

I understand your reasoning more clearly now, but I still think it's a bit more alienating for 3DS players who want no-item play and Wii U players who would enjoy ISP.

Simple, items can be turned on or off for matches on either system, Isp side tournaments for the wii u version is certainly plausible.
People who want to play sm4sh with no items competitively but on the 3ds version are a minority of a minority, if they honestly believe that a no items ruleset for the 3ds will bring them something the wii u version won't, then they can host their own tournaments with that ruleset. Capps' plan for an interesting spin on the 3ds gameplay is probably the best it can get, as the 3ds version isn't going to be the popular version at tournaments.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So then we should just give up on the people who want to play the 3DS non-items?
Like I've said. It's ridiculous to alienate one crowd just to bring in another.
We wouldn't be drawing in people, we instead would be replacing.

Sure, the 3DS scene might not be as big. But that doesn't mean anything.
We can still bring to game everyone loves and bring in others.
We'd simply make two different scenes. Non-item, and item.
That way we draw in two crowds.

In a way, it's kinda what I'm suggesting. People in general have been completely unwilling to ever test anything or change anything in any way. Unfortunately to most people at the moment the 3DS is only smash on the go and NOTHING else and even if people play a game where the only difference is stages at a tournament beside the Wii U version I feel like we're missing HUGE potential to use a tool we've been given to do something different.

I understand your reasoning more clearly now, but I still think it's a bit more alienating for 3DS players who want no-item play and Wii U players who would enjoy ISP. I don't necessarily think it couldn't work out long-term though, if we think of the separation between the consoles as a temporary means to an ends.

Wii U players see that ISP has been working out well on the 3DS and thus the conversation can begin about whether or not ISP at the Wii U level should be potentially parallel to no-item play, with the eventual goal of both gameplay types being respected and common on both platforms.

I guarantee you, hell I'll even offer up something very valuable I own that if the Wii U version starts with no items they would NEVER be added back. Unfortunately once something is banned in this community it stays banned forever, I could show you MANY examples and even show several where bans were based on lies or simply from dislike. (Or talk about how items get rid of the issue with planking in Brawl and might have even been able to stop MK dominance but still weren't added.) Things just don't come back which sucks. Yes I realize this isn't optimal for people who might like items on the Wii U or people who don't like items on the 3DS but as of now it's pretty much been that way for people who liked items regardless of Smash.

This is actually a really great idea. While Sm4sh for the wii u will obviously be the main event, (looks better, can be recorded easier, less consoles to keep track of, will likely run better) The 3ds scene being devoted to introducing newbies to the scene will certainly be a great way of using all that sm4sh has to offer for us. It's also a great way to differentiate the games, as the 3ds version would certainly have troubles standing on its own if it has the same ruleset as the wii u version.

Just as a little side question: what do you think about the items shown off so far? which do you think will be legal or banned based off the information we currently know?

You seem to agree with me. I wont say the idea doesn't have issues, but I think that we'd be wasting a tool in the 3DS version by just playing it as is.

As for items shown thus far I'll make NO guesses. (Maybe minus the fairy in the bottle being too strong, it reminds me of the heart container). Items from Melee to Brawl were actually REALLY different, so I don't want to assume too much going into the next game.

 

[Ussi]

3DS version is for those who want both games or don't want to buy a wii U. A lot of people don't want to buy a wii u just for smash when they have a 3ds already.

 

[Substitution]

In a way, it's kinda what I'm suggesting. People in general have been completely unwilling to ever test anything or change anything in any way. Unfortunately to most people at the moment the 3DS is only smash on the go and NOTHING else and even if people play a game where the only difference is stages at a tournament beside the Wii U version I feel like we're missing HUGE potential to use a tool we've been given to do something different.

So then we prove that our spot wasn't wasted.

But, in a way that all parties can be satisfied. Which is where having two options come into play.
We not only get the crowd that's love it as it is. But we also draw in a new crowd, one open to the new idea.
We get two crowds instead of one. Which means a bigger scene than if we had one.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So then we prove that our spot wasn't wasted.

But, in a way that all parties can be satisfied. Which is where having two options come into play.
We not only get the crowd that's love it as it is. But we also draw in a new crowd, one open to the new idea.
We get two crowds instead of one. Which means a bigger scene than if we had one.

In all honesty, if both versions just committed to actually testing EVERYTHING and did it right I wouldn't make this suggestion. Unfortunately I need to be realistic and realize it wont happen. Heck, half the reason I'm suggesting to try items on the 3DS is because I know they won't see a single ounce of testing if if they should otherwise. There's a good chance we hurt Brawl by removing items (seriously) and I wish to not to so again. The 3DS does not stand much chance for sucess without a distinguishing factor because of the struggles it takes to use the 3DS, so there's the distinguishing factor.

 

[Substitution]

In all honesty, if both versions just committed to actually testing EVERYTHING and did it right I wouldn't make this suggestion. Unfortunately I need to be realistic and realize it wont happen.

It wouldn't hurt to try.
Even if it's a small team we can still make it work.
If we can prove that items can be implemented people would be more accepting.
The only real hard part if asking people to try.

Heck, half the reason I'm suggesting to try items on the 3DS is because I know they won't see a single ounce of testing if if they should otherwise.

But we shouldn't make it to where it's the only way.
We can test items. But we can still have the game people love.

There's a good chance we hurt Brawl by removing items (seriously) and I wish to not to so again. The 3DS does not stand much chance for sucess without a distinguishing factor because of the struggles it takes to use the 3DS, so there's the distinguishing factor.

And yet Melee did fine without them.
There we're other factors that hindered Brawl. It wasn't just removing items.
The good thing about SSB4 is we have the advantage of being closer to Melee.
We have the opportunity of obtaining the crowd that Brawl lost. We need to use that to our advantage.

 

[LiteralGrill]

It wouldn't hurt to try.
Even if it's a small team we can still make it work.
If we can prove that items can be implemented people would be more accepting.
The only real hard part if asking people to try.

Well as of now the only person planning to be a dedicated TO to 3DS is... Me So yeah, a small team indeed, though I give credit to everyone who comes to discuss things, it's really nice to bounce ideas off people.

But we shouldn't make it to where it's the only way.
We can test items. But we can still have the game people love.

Which is what I'm doing. Yeah it's not the way people may like, but I'm not seeing the idea that ANYONE will actually consistently run ISP side events at all events for both versions, a chance that someone might do it for ONE version that may bring them tons more players to events? Possible.

And yet Melee did fine without them.
There we're other factors that hindered Brawl. It wasn't just removing items.
The good thing about SSB4 is we have the advantage of being closer to Melee.
We have the opportunity of obtaining the crowd that Brawl lost. We need to use that to our advantage.

Yes Brawl had other issues, but it's funny that people talked about how our ruleset was about catering to a single character and to make the game faster when we ourselves made it only to cater to ourselves which caused the problem in the first place. It being faster or closer to Melee is great if the only goal is to have Melee vets come over, it means little to brand new people. Having a game they access without a huge culture shock could mean BIG things.

 

[Substitution]

Well as of now the only person planning to be a dedicated TO to 3DS is... Me So yeah, a small team indeed, though I give credit to everyone who comes to discuss things, it's really nice to bounce ideas off people.

Well, like you've said, as of right now.
In the bright side. We don't know the outcome of the two games. Heck they're not even out yet.
The scene could go anywhere. We could get big, they could get big. Or we'd be equal.
And it's not like both of us don't have our problems. As of right now, where we land is unpredictable at best.

Which is what I'm doing. Yeah it's not the way people may like, but I'm not seeing the idea that ANYONE will actually consistently run ISP side events at all events for both versions, a chance that someone might do it for ONE version that may bring them tons more players to events? Possible.

As long as we still have a non-items version. I'm sure people will be fine.
Like I said, having both options open (especially if items become a thing) will draw in more than just one.
The first step is just proving they work. It will be hard. But with enough hard work, we can make it work.

It being faster or closer to Melee is great if the only goal is to have Melee vets come over, it means little to brand new people. Having a game they access without a huge culture shock could mean BIG things.

In a way, it can actually.
Remember, with veterans comes some of the bigger names who missed Brawl. Or heck, the ones who missed Melee.
One thing I've learned is people love those guys. And they get to see their favorite smashers in a new environment.
And lets face it, who wouldn't want to go against Hungrybox? Or heck, Mew2King (to give a few examples)?

It also proves that people are more open to this one.
Whereas Brawl was divisible. We could end up being the middle man.
We'd not only be the Melee people have wanted. We're also the changes that Brawl wanted.
This game could appeal to the best of both worlds. And with a more accepting crowd, we'd get more people wanting to give it a chance.

 

[D-idara]

Goals Jack presented in his ISP thread. As many people already consider Smash Wii U to be the "competitive" Smash, we thought it way be a worthy goal to use Smash 3DS as a tool to help build up the entire smash scene by reaching out to new players and helping them work their way into the scene without the huge "culture shock" of suddenly seeing all items off and so many stages banned.

I would like to get your opinion on this idea, and any suggestions on how that idea could be realized to benefit the competitive scene, as well as open this up as a place to discuss items in general. Please don't start a flame war, read the OP as I already suggested, and try to keep an open mind as I know ISP is not for everyone (but some do love it).

Remember, the game being accesible to new players looks bad in competitive players' eyes...they want the game to be as much 'You need to practice for years to go competitive' as possible so they'll always be againist anything that makes the game easier and more intuitive to play. Of course Items and crazier stages should be considered for competitive play because adapting to changing enviroments and different situations is also a form of skill, not just wavedash+wavedash+waveshine+cheap edgeguard.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Remember, the game being accesible to new players looks bad in competitive players' eyes...they want the game to be as much 'You need to practice for years to go competitive' as possible so they'll always be againist anything that makes the game easier and more intuitive to play. Of course Items and crazier stages should be considered for competitive play because adapting to changing enviroments and different situations is also a form of skill, not just wavedash+wavedash+waveshine+cheap edgeguard.

I'm not concerned about those issues. This does not make the game easier to play, just more accesible. Items mean you need to learn things like (using Brawl as an example, who knows what 3DS will bring) glide tossing, new combos (Ganon infinites ), throwing, item control, stage control, how to use each item, and the list goes on. The game will still remain challenging.

 

[smashbro29]

The fact that they fall at random is frankly enough for me to never consider using them seriously, even if it's a bat or a fan.

You're also forgetting this is the community that won't even play on certain stages with memorizable stage patterns and hazards, you think they'll be up for something 100% random?

 

[Zonderion]

The fact that they fall at random is frankly enough for me to never consider using them seriously, even if it's a bat or a fan.

You're also forgetting this is the community that won't even play on certain stages with memorizable stage patterns and hazards, you think they'll be up for something 100% random?

So, would you change your stance if you could designate the item spawn points?

 

[Malcolm Belmont]

Honestly as long as it's not for competitive matches i really don't mind Items being turned out but i do understand why people don't like items..

 

[LiteralGrill]

The fact that they fall at random is frankly enough for me to never consider using them seriously, even if it's a bat or a fan.

You're also forgetting this is the community that won't even play on certain stages with memorizable stage patterns and hazards, you think they'll be up for something 100% random?

I'm going to assume people who would try ISP wouldn't mind and that I'd be tapping into a lot of new people seeing as how it was being used more as an introduction into smash, so yeah I see no issues.

 

[D-idara]

The fact that they fall at random is frankly enough for me to never consider using them seriously, even if it's a bat or a fan.

You're also forgetting this is the community that won't even play on certain stages with memorizable stage patterns and hazards, you think they'll be up for something 100% random?

Oh, I'm suddenly at a disadvantage and I must find a way to turn this on my favor! It's not like this is the fun part of a competition!

 

[LiteralGrill]

Oh, I'm suddenly at a disadvantage and I must find a way to turn this on my favor! It's not like this is the fun part of a competition!

Hey now be nice...

Yes some people do think that way, and they have every right to do so. They play how they like just how we would. Which i'm hoping to offer people with that different opinion a chance to play that way via 3DS. Sound cool?

 

[mimgrim]

Well besides the fact that I actually find most items boring.

It's the randomness of items that is the biggest problem imo. Sure you can turn capsules off in Brawl but there is still that random chance an items will just fall on top of you and give you an advantage without putting any effort towards getting that advantage. You can argue stuff like stage control and stuff gets promoted more, even though it's already a important part of competitive play as is so it becomes moot, but due to the random fact the control wouldn't always be enough. That's the biggest gripe I have with items, they have the potential to give a free advantage, which is never a good thing.

 

[DaDavid]

Well besides the fact that I actually find most items boring.

It's the randomness of items that is the biggest problem imo. Sure you can turn capsules off in Brawl but there is still that random chance an items will just fall on top of you and give you an advantage without putting any effort towards getting that advantage. You can argue stuff like stage control and stuff gets promoted more, even though it's already a important part of competitive play as is so it becomes moot, but due to the random fact the control wouldn't always be enough. That's the biggest gripe I have with items, they have the potential to give a free advantage, which is never a good thing.

I understand that there's always a certain degree of randomness, which is I guess why no one that takes competitive play super seriously (sorry if that sounds condescending or anything) would never be down for it, but that's why I think it makes a perfect side or alternative event for either players who want to slowly adjust to full on, no-item play or players who just want a way to have competitive (in the sense of winners and losers mattering) matches but who have an understanding that the randomness of the game is something both competitors are willing to accept.

 

[mimgrim]

I understand that there's always a certain degree of randomness, which is I guess why no one that takes competitive play super seriously (sorry if that sounds condescending or anything) would never be down for it, but that's why I think it makes a perfect side or alternative event for either players who want to slowly adjust to full on, no-item play or players who just want a way to have competitive (in the sense of winners and losers mattering) matches but who have an understanding that the randomness of the game is something both competitors are willing to accept.

I don't care if it's a side event.

I just don't want it as the main even/to replace the main event.

 

[DaDavid]

I don't care if it's a side event.

I just don't want it as the main even/to replace the main event.

And that's not really at all what's being suggested here. It's just a matter of making it more parallel to no-item play as opposed to making it some unimportant little thing in the corner.

 

[mimgrim]

And that's not really at all what's being suggested here. It's just a matter of making it more parallel to no-item play as opposed to making it some unimportant little thing in the corner.

Not exactly what I get from reading the thread.

What I am seeing is;

Wii-U = no item play

3DS = item play

I don't like that.

I don't care if it gets it's own tournament thing or side event but it shouldn't replace non-item play as the primary event for either system.

 

[LiteralGrill]

And that's not really at all what's being suggested here. It's just a matter of making it more parallel to no-item play as opposed to making it some unimportant little thing in the corner.

That's a seriously good way of wording my thoughts, thank you.

 

[DaDavid]

That's a seriously good way of wording my thoughts, thank you.

Just doing what I can to make sure your idea is accepted or criticized for what it actually is, I know things can get lost in translation sometimes.

 

[HammerHappy]

Oh, I'm suddenly at a disadvantage and I must find a way to turn this on my favor! It's not like this is the fun part of a competition!

"Oh, now I've suddenly lost the match because random chance favored my opponent in an apparently competitive series with the goal to determine the player with the greater skill. Losing a match due to pure luck and not because my opponent proved himself better is the fun part of a competition."

Smash Bros already suffers competitively enough because of that and character imbalance. There's a reason stages are banned out.
People watch competitive games to witness the highest expression of talent for that game. They don't want to see someone drop a Suicune on someone and think "Well, I could of done that."

No items didn't hurt Brawl. Brawl killed Brawl before they could. Brawl was specifically designed not to accommodate competitive play, blatantly in some regards (#tripping). You're right, may as well have allowed items and no stage restrictions. I don't think Brawl could of been taken less seriously competitively.

It's not like being non-comp is a bad thing. Smash Bros as a series has never exactly been the pinnacle expression of an even playing field. Just now in SSB4 has steps been taken to decrease the effectiveness of ledge hogging. I don't think anyone likes to see those kills on opponents barely knocked/thrown off the stage. It's just as lame as being fan slap locked to death. Hopefully along with that change recoveries will be made much more difficult from Brawl though.

So I agree with OP. We all know that the 3DS version will largely be disregarded in comp for the console version. It's a perfect sandbox for item and stage use while giving a lot of new players an entry point into the Smash community. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be given the same balance and mechanic inspecting SSB4 has clearly undertaken to remove a lot of the faults that detracted from Brawl/Melee.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'm glad you like the idea but...

They don't want to see someone drop a Suicune on someone and think "Well, I could of done that."

You are now stupid as stated in the OP. Sorry, but you used a horrible example especially when I said we'd look at using ISP criteria which bans Pokeballs no questions asked. I'm trying to turn on items that work with competition, so read next time.

But to respond to something else as well:

"Oh, now I've suddenly lost the match because random chance favored my opponent in an apparently competitive series with the goal to determine the player with the greater skill. Losing a match due to pure luck and not because my opponent proved himself better is the fun part of a competition."

Mitigating an opponents luck and using your own to the maximum is a component found in an incrredibly high number of competitive games. Randomness does not instantly mean that something is noncompetitive.


And finally, you didn't have to be a jerk. Seriously, why respond to someone not being civil by being a jerk as well? It does nothing to further the discussion.

 

[mimgrim]

Mitigating an opponents luck and using your own to the maximum is a component found in an incrredibly high number of competitive games. Randomness does not instantly mean that something is noncompetitive.

How many of those competitive games are fighting games? Heck, how many of those games have the same pace as a fighting game even?

 

[LiteralGrill]

How many of those competitive games are fighting games? Heck, how many of those games have the same pace as a fighting game even?

Quite a few can hold quite the pace. But in all honesty for fighters I am unsure. To me it is still a testable skill and has been tested in Smash at ISP events in Brawl even and shown to cause no problems.