Let's Talk About Witch Time

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Next thing we know Dodge offset will be in her moveset lol... So far Sakurai has out done himself and we dont even have the character yet. I had a theory before that was dumb until recent discovery of Bat within. Bayonetta is most likely balanced by WT used in the air puts you into free like some have suggested. Or maybe you can only WT on the ground. If you can WT projectile like Shiek's needles and ZSS paralyzer then Bayo will be pretty broken so that's probably not likely.

Also noticed that the Bat Within that activates on air dodge vs Sheik in footage has airdodge landing lag... so it won't cancel roll dodge lag so its just for effects?

Spoiler: Spot Dodge

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Then maybe, Bat Within will only trigger at the beginning frames, since dodges are vulnerable in the first few frames.

 

[Greda]

Then maybe, Bat Within will only trigger at the beginning frames, since dodges are vulnerable in the first few frames.

Still, in the scenes where she performs Bat Within, I'm positive they aren't a spot dodge nor a roll.

Might edit this post later or make a new one showing gif examples.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Still, in the scenes where she performs Bat Within, I'm positive they aren't a spot dodge nor a roll.

Might edit this post later or make a new one showing gif examples.

When you slow down the video, Bayonetta is clearly doing different animations. So either those are her dodges, or Witch Time has different animations.

 

[Greda]

Then maybe, Bat Within will only trigger at the beginning frames, since dodges are vulnerable in the first few frames.

Finally arrived at my computer, and now I believe this theory. My main confusion was of why it would activate in the middle of a dodge, but this explains it. It actually does seem to start on the first frames of dodges. I was looking through the scenes frame by frame, and look at this.

Spoiler: Dodges

The look exactly the same, don't they? The top scene is her forward roll uninterrupted, and the bottom is when it triggers Bat Within. So, when we look at it this way, everything makes sense.

Sakurai said when Witch Time triggers late, Bat Within activates, not early. This explains why we thought it was early, Bat Within activates on dodges, too. In the Sheik scene, we can also confirm this works for airdodges as well.

I'm... Wow...

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

Well, I don't want to take credit for the theory since Trexbor17 and Mr_Kreep3r brought this to light. I had thought otherwise before then.

 

[Gold_TSG]

So basically, she has special, uninterruptible-by-attacking dodges.

 

[blackghost]

So basically, she has special, uninterruptible-by-attacking dodges.

if this is true get ready for a huge amount of salt. so whats the downside to using this? landing lag? or is bayonetta going ot be extremely light to compensate? maybe her shield will be weak as she doesn't block in her games.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

if this is true get ready for a huge amount of salt. so whats the downside to using this? landing lag? or is bayonetta going ot be extremely light to compensate? maybe her shield will be weak as she doesn't block in her games.

For now I think they are just visual effects added to her dodges like Mewtwo/Rosa/Palutena going invisible for dodges, except you have to be hit at the first few frames to activate this effect if not the animation is plain and simple. This may be the first thing I test when she gets released.

 

[David Viran]

For now I think they are just visual effects added to her dodges like Mewtwo/Rosa/Palutena going invisible for dodges, except you have to be hit at the first few frames to activate this effect if not the animation is plain and simple. This may be the first thing I test when she gets released.

The fact that Sakurai said it activates when her dodge moves fail makes it seem pretty likely that BW activates during what would be the vulnerability frames of a Dodge move. At least start up vulnerability.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

The fact that Sakurai said it activates when her dodge moves fail makes it seem pretty likely that BW activates during what would be the vulnerability frames of a Dodge move. At least start up vulnerability.

Yea it could be the whole like frame 2-25ish of airdodge and I will test benefit of being hit the first frame vs last.

 

[Trexbor17]

No video evidence on Bayonetta getting hit/activating BW on the last frames of dodges so maybe its punishable, all in all the wait is killing me too

 

[Gold_TSG]

I want her to be good, but not stupid good.

 

[Ixbran]

sooo ... she has the potential to completely destroy the competitive scene in SSB4 due to having a skill that can get her out of any attack?

Another reason for me to love her inclusion.

 

[Kon]

This theory now makes perfect sense. I watched the BW-part of the trailer again and you're right. We see how airdodge fails, spotdodge fails, back roll and forward roll fail and what happens, when witch time fails. This seems like a huge advantage for bayonetta's defensive options. So if people want to punish defensive options of bayonetta, they will have to go for grabs most of the time.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

In light of recent discoveries I did a little more digging and found these.

Spoiler: More stuff

So maybe rolling/dodge on reaction might be better than shielding? Maybe her shield will be weak like some have pondered. Or maybe the trailer was made to make this look game breaking. RIP for glory lol?

I wonder if ledge roll counts too... Lets say Rosa sets up the Luma spin setup at ledge what happens when i roll onto stage?

Last digging I do until she is released since she might come out in the next 3 weeks.

 

[Skyfox2000]

So you guys are thinking Bat-Within is part of her Dodge Animation? I thought it was apart of the counter lol

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

So you guys are thinking Bat-Within is part of her Dodge Animation? I thought it was apart of the counter lol

It's apart of dodges and WT... It's like a passive on counter/dodge skills.

 

[BlackCephie]

Thats crazy if its actually attached to her normal dodge and WT as well. She must be SUPER light to balance things out. Your opponent must be awarded for being able to land a hit on you at all, given that she will be super hard to hit it looks like.

 

[Trexbor17]

Mr_Kreep3r If this turns out to be true, it was a pleasure discovering this with you, that feeling of discovery is always satisfying

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Mr_Kreep3r If this turns out to be true, it was a pleasure discovering this with you, that feeling of discovery is always satisfying

back at ya! I hope this negates shiek's dthrow 50/50 lol.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Dodging will not trigger witch time or bat within.
This is not gonna happen.
Screencap this if you need to. I'll eat a hat if it does.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Dodging will not trigger witch time or bat within.
This is not gonna happen.
Screencap this if you need to. I'll eat a hat if it does.

Dodge's only trigger bat within. You can see it trigger on her roll/dodges in the gifs provided. G Greda has the best example and explanation

Finally arrived at my computer, and now I believe this theory. My main confusion was of why it would activate in the middle of a dodge, but this explains it. It actually does seem to start on the first frames of dodges. I was looking through the scenes frame by frame, and look at this.

Spoiler: Dodges

The look exactly the same, don't they? The top scene is her forward roll uninterrupted, and the bottom is when it triggers Bat Within. So, when we look at it this way, everything makes sense.

Sakurai said when Witch Time triggers late, Bat Within activates, not early. This explains why we thought it was early, Bat Within activates on dodges, too. In the Sheik scene, we can also confirm this works for airdodges as well.

I'm... Wow...

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Dodge's only trigger bat within. You can see it trigger on her roll/dodges in the gifs provided. G Greda has the best example and explanation

As I said, not gonna happen. What you see there could just be the shield.

 

[Greda]

As I said, not gonna happen. What you see there could just be the shield.

The example I presented was her Forward Roll, not her shield.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

The example I presented was her Forward Roll, not her shield.

I don't know how you roll, but I do it with shield+directional input

 

[David Viran]

I don't know how you roll, but I do it with shield+directional input

The 2 spots that those examples were taken from one was from when we see her forward roll all the way through and the other was right before BW activated. Shield doesn't have a fail window because it's frame 1 and I don't think BW activates on a PS.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

I don't know how you roll, but I do it with shield+directional input

Feels like your trolling us hard lol. A shield would power shielded those attacks... you can see the first few frames of her roll before she gets hit. Rolling with w/e button is still a roll once the animation starts it's considered a roll.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Okay I've rewatched the video on my own in 1/4 speed and I can see what you guys mean.
But I ain't buying it until I can do it myself. This seems kind of OP and would be a change to basic mechanics.
Having a frame 1 roll is ridiculous.

 

[David Viran]

Frame 1 AD lol.

 

[blackghost]

did anyone notice anything in her new gameplay? the window looks a lot more generous than i was expecting. the player got bat within once and witch time twice netting two easy kills.

 

[Trexbor17]

Heres the video of the demonstration made by Nintendo UK, around the 1:10 mark you can see Corrin getting slowed down by witch time while in his dair that is a lingering hitbox which funnily enough activates Bat within as Bayonetta rolls to the left. Hat burgers anyone? XD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D6mh2NTKG4

 

[Gold_TSG]

From what I saw in one of the videos, WT looks kinda punishable on whiff, cause she has to go through the whole backflip animation, which seems to be a little on the slow side.

 

[Trexbor17]

And heres the one from Toukaigi 2016 where the japanese play them https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goq3xeCyud4

 

[DarkSKY]

This move is really good. I didn't think the hitboxes would still be active , though. Its probably for the best or it would be a broken move.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

Whiff in air seems really bad. Can't tell if that's free fall or just alot of lag.

Edit: Also purple flash for witch time ihelps tell difference from roll/air dodge.

 

[blackghost]

Whiff in air seems really bad. Can't tell if that's free fall or just alot of lag.

Edit: Also purple flash for witch time ihelps tell difference from roll/air dodge.

wouldn't say its very bad. she shields imediatly after landing. this is relatively safe and its reminding me of shoryuken it looks easy to punish but i really doubt it is.

 

[blackghost]

Heres the video of the demonstration made by Nintendo UK, around the 1:10 mark you can see Corrin getting slowed down by witch time while in his dair that is a lingering hitbox which funnily enough activates Bat within as Bayonetta rolls to the left. Hat burgers anyone? XD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D6mh2NTKG4

she didn't roll she did two seperate down b's. the first countered the air itself the second was activated off the shockwave granting her a batithin.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

she didn't roll she did two seperate down b's. the first countered the air itself the second was activated off the shockwave granting her a batithin.

she WT then rolled you can see the roll animation at start and end

edit: come feb 3rd we can test it all

 

[blackghost]

she WT then rolled you can see the roll animation at start and end

edit: come feb 3rd we can test it all

thats her down b activation animation at the start for sure and just like in her trailer the batwithin wondow is larger. she would have to counter twice because witch time only makes you invulnerable to that first hitbox you counter the second down b was on the shockwave triggering it.