Let's Talk About Witch Time

[David Viran]

You can't "stack" knockback. A trip to the training room with a spawned timer should debunk this.

We don't actually see Fox die in the clip. but if he does it's because a) the damage he took increased fair's knockback, and b) they were really close to the blastzone.

If things worked like you say Fox would've flown off instantly when Witch Time expired.

The red lightning came when fair connected and unless the Fox DIed it, he was guaranteed dead. It's also important to note tho that the initial fsmash created the red lightning too so the rest of the combo was unnecessary.

 

[Greda]

I dunno. It seems like all that knockback is put on a kind of stack, like is magic the gathering. It would make sense. Lets say someone is at 85% and you hit them with an upsmash. Maybe that doesnt kill. But what if you catch them in wt first, start with the upsmash then combo them to 100%, then wt ends at which point the knockback from the upsmash resolves, resulting in a kill. Seems like a more practical approach. In the video, the last hit before he dies is a bayo fair string, not ab kick, which has like no knockback. Thats the only reason it seems like the strongest hit's knockback is stored.

ABK upwards hardly causes knockback. Downwards, however, it props the enemy up. I said ABK was the last attack because it was the last attack she made on Fox before Witch Time ended, Fair was done completely out of Witch Time.

The red lightning came when fair connected and unless the Fox DIed it, he was guaranteed dead. It's also important to note tho that the initial fsmash created the red lightning too so the rest of the combo was unnecessary.

I doubt it, he was too close to the blastzone for it to take THAT long for Fox to die off that Fair. They didn't even show him dying, and I suspect it's because he didn't die.

Edit: I can't read, I didn't read the part when you said "unless the Fox DIed it". Oops.

 

[meleebrawler]

The red lightning came when fair connected and unless the Fox DIed it, he was guaranteed dead. It's also important to note tho that the initial fsmash created the red lightning too so the rest of the combo was unnecessary.

I'm just making a point that you can't "add" knockback just because they're slowed. Fox didn't fly faster from the fair string than he did from fsmash.

It's easy to test, just grab a timer, smash someone at kill percent then hit them with an aerial before they fly too far. Congrats, you just stopped them from dying.

 

[BlackCephie]

You can't "stack" knockback. A trip to the training room with a spawned timer should debunk this.

We don't actually see Fox die in the clip. but if he does it's because a) the damage he took increased fair's knockback, and b) they were really close to the blastzone.

If things worked like you say Fox would've flown off instantly when Witch Time expired.

True. Its def possiible the he would have just died from the fair because he was so high up.

 

[Gold_TSG]

Am I the only person that just loves watching that fsmash? I can feel the impact.

 

[deepseadiva]

This is probably going to be the best counter.

A free combo for every solid read...? Bayonetta omgggggggggg I swear

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

What if Witch Time worked for grabs, too? It does in her games, but for the sake of balance, it may not be implemented for Smash; therefore it would be treated like every other counter in the game.

 

[Greda]

What if Witch Time worked for grabs, too? It does in her games, but for the sake of balance, it may not be implemented for Smash; therefore it's treated like every other counter in the game.

As much as I would love that, I doubt that. Witch Time already has Bat Within as an insane failsafe, if the counter isn't able to be punished by grabs, it's probably going to be punished by hardly anything. Maybe even nothing.

 

[blackghost]

As much as I would love that, I doubt that. Witch Time already has Bat Within as an insane failsafe, if the counter isn't able to be punished by grabs, it's probably going to be punished by hardly anything. Maybe even nothing.

it may be punishable by a dash grab but not a standing grab. she is moving when she goes in the backflip animation for her counter. its going to be wierd to deal with this move. even as a bayonetta main.

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

I'm wondering. We haven't seen yet the pose that Bayo does while she counters. They showed us perfect timed counters.

What if her counter stance is a little back flip? That would be nice. It could even dodge some kind of grabs ()

 

[deepseadiva]

it may be punishable by a dash grab but not a standing grab. she is moving when she goes in the backflip animation for her counter. its going to be wierd to deal with this move. even as a bayonetta main.

You're right she does move! This move is gonna be broken YESSSSSS GURRRLLLL

 

[BlackCephie]

it may be punishable by a dash grab but not a standing grab. she is moving when she goes in the backflip animation for her counter. its going to be wierd to deal with this move. even as a bayonetta main.

Yea I thought I saw this. Pretty much looks like a swiss army knife of a move. Could prolly even use it raw for mindgames as long as she doesnt have end lag after that backflip.

 

[blackghost]

Yea I thought I saw this. Pretty much looks like a swiss army knife of a move. Could prolly even use it raw for mindgames as long as she doesnt have end lag after that backflip.

i would describe her in game play in her games as "offensive counterpuncher" that looks like translated directly over.

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

WT and Back roll share the same animation. WT spark is center body and roll spark is at the feet. WT's purple magic effect only appears when one of the two skills are triggered.(Thought this should go here)

Spoiler

WT

Back roll

 

[NewFoundAbility]

Broken move right here!

What are your impressions, do you think will it actually be broken?

A couple of questions:

1. Do you think using witch time, like marth countering luigi up b or side b, will screw luigi's recovery? Or other hitting up b like lucina's, pikachu's, ryu's, etc

2. Witch time at the edge > Dsmash ftw


3. If Bayonetta dodge a proyectile like Link's boomerang, do you think Witch Time activate on Link, on the boomerang or doesnt activate.

If you got other questions post them here so we can talk about it!

1. I think it just slows them down. So... Combo after that? Sounds awesome if that's the case.

2. Eh, uh... Depends on the character?

3. It activates on Link. It's too early to tell.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Has anyone talked about using off-stage Witch Time near the ledge to intercept the opponent's up B and how it might set up to an easy down smash spike?

 

[Greda]

Has anyone talked about using off-stage Witch Time near the ledge to intercept the opponent's up B and how it might set up to an easy down smash spike?

What if it sends you into Free Fall when you use it in the air? That would be a major weakness...

 

[ligersandtigons]

What if it sends you into Free Fall when you use it in the air? That would be a major weakness...

If that was the case, it should still have some usage because if you do it close enough to the ledge, you should be able to grab the ledge.

 

[Doctor Troggy]

I'd imagine that (Considering it's combo potential and the safety net that is Bat Within) Witch Time would be a move with more end-lag on an unsuccessful use. Most moves with the same capabilities that Witch Time seems to have often have a lot of lag (For example, Dedede and Bowser's FSmashes) or have a mechanic/gimmick to discourage repeated use (For Example, Villager and ROB's Up Bs or Shulk's Vision).

 

[ligersandtigons]

I'd imagine that (Considering it's combo potential and the safety net that is Bat Within) Witch Time would be a move with more end-lag on an unsuccessful use. Most moves with the same capabilities that Witch Time seems to have often have a lot of lag (For example, Dedede and Bowser's FSmashes) or have a mechanic/gimmick to discourage repeated use (For Example, Villager and ROB's Up Bs or Shulk's Vision).

During the direct, they already confirmed that witch time has the same anti spam mechanic as vision

 

[Doctor Troggy]

Oh, alright. Forgot about that. Thanks for reminding me. Should probably look more into things before posting, eh?

 

[Kon]

I don't see why Witch Time should put you in Freefall if used mid-air/offstage. There is no counter with such a downside, so I don't see his being a problem for witch time neither.

I agree that it may give Bayo an easy time to land the Dsmash spike at the ledge against the opponent. However it depends on %, at low % you will probably be too slow to jump onstage and perform a Dsmash in time. At mid-high% it should work. I'll try it definitely out at the release of the dlc.

 

[Trexbor17]

I dont think it works on projectiles, when you compare mewtwo's fsmash and megaman's fsmash, bayonetta's down b was hit at nearly the same time, yet in mewtwo's case wt was activated but with megaman it didnt activate, also id like to point out the fact that when sheik performed her fsmash, frames before bayonetta's bw activates, it really looks like she's performing a dodgeroll.

Spoiler: WT projectile

Slowed down to .25x

Spoiler: BW

Slowed down to .25x

 

[Lakuto]

I dont think it works on projectiles, when you compare mewtwo's fsmash and megaman's fsmash, bayonetta's down b was hit at nearly the same time, yet in mewtwo's case wt was activated but with megaman it didnt activate, also id like to point out the fact that when sheik performed her fsmash, frames before bayonetta's bw activates, it really looks like she's performing a dodgeroll.

Spoiler: WT projectile

Slowed down to .25x

Spoiler: BW

Slowed down to .25x

About the Sheik animation, it's probably the B-reverse version i guess.

In that state of mind, moves like Villager's F-Smash wouldn't be Witch Time-able? Yeah, pretty much.

 

[Gold_TSG]

That's definitely not a dodge roll. Watch Sheik's fsmash closely and you'll see the animation lags when it hits Bayonetta. That means it made contact with her.

 

[Trexbor17]

If you listen closely to the explanation it says that "Bat Within protects Bayonetta, even when her dodge move is about to fail" So unless was mistranslated and he tried to say counter move, its safe to assume that Bat Within also activates on dodges and airdodges. Also b reversing doesnt change the animation, so you would see her do the animation in the other way; you see the spark in the beginning and then she moves in front so saying that she dashed and then pressed down b wont cut it either. Now im not too sure about this but dodgerolls have 4 frames in the beginning which you can get hit out off, if Bayonetta was hit during those 4 frames and then Bat Within was activated, it would explain the lag in Sheik's fsmash

 

[meleebrawler]

If you listen closely to the explanation it says that "Bat Within protects Bayonetta, even when her dodge move is about to fail" So unless was mistranslated and he tried to say counter move, its safe to assume that Bat Within also activates on dodges and airdodges. Also b reversing doesnt change the animation, so you would see her do the animation in the other way; you see the spark in the beginning and then she moves in front so saying that she dashed and then pressed down b wont cut it either

What's the point of having Witch Time as a down b if simply dodging grants the same effect? (Not to mention making airdodges and sidesteps completely broken by having the few vulnerable frames covered by Bat Within.)

Witch Time may function mechanically as a counter, but it's really technically a dodge.

When Bat Within activates you can move the swarm before reforming, so it's likely moving towards the direction of the attack has Bayonetta auto-turn like a forward roll.

 

[Trexbor17]

Witch time slows the enemy down, Bat Within doesnt grant you that effect, so dodges wont slow the enemy down

 

[Gold_TSG]

There's just no way that he meant dodge rolls also cause BW, cause WT's animation is a dodge, and that's what it is in her games.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

If you listen closely to the explanation it says that "Bat Within protects Bayonetta, even when her dodge move is about to fail" So unless was mistranslated and he tried to say counter move, its safe to assume that Bat Within also activates on dodges and airdodges. Also b reversing doesnt change the animation, so you would see her do the animation in the other way; you see the spark in the beginning and then she moves in front so saying that she dashed and then pressed down b wont cut it either. Now im not too sure about this but dodgerolls have 4 frames in the beginning which you can get hit out off, if Bayonetta was hit during those 4 frames and then Bat Within was activated, it would explain the lag in Sheik's fsmash

"her dodge move" is referring to Witch Time. The spark is located in the middle of Bayonetta when she does Witch Time, while the spark from her dodge roll is located at her feet.

I dont think it works on projectiles, when you compare mewtwo's fsmash and megaman's fsmash, bayonetta's down b was hit at nearly the same time, yet in mewtwo's case wt was activated but with megaman it didnt activate, also id like to point out the fact that when sheik performed her fsmash, frames before bayonetta's bw activates, it really looks like she's performing a dodgeroll.

Spoiler: WT projectile

Slowed down to .25x

Spoiler: BW

Slowed down to .25x

I think the slight timing difference determined whether Witch Time activated or not as opposed to whether the move countered was a projectile or not. Bat Within seems to activate at the very first frames, and the very last frames. In between all that is a successful Witch Time and then a delayed successful Witch Time with Bat Within added to it (at least this is how I'm understanding how Witch Time works; the timing seems to mirror that from her source games).

Possibly this: Bat Within->Witch Time-> Witch Time/Bat Within-> Bat Within

 

[Lakuto]

What would have been cool though is that you can slow down the projectiles with WT (not the user of it) then reflect them with an attack while they are slow.

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

In her source games, Witch Time is activated on projectiles. I would imagine it would be the same in Smash. But we'll see. I just want her to be in already so we can test these things out.

 

[Lakuto]

Yeah, the waiting is killing us bit by bit...

 

[blackghost]

In her source games, Witch Time is activated on projectiles. I would imagine it would be the same in Smash. But we'll see. I just want her to be in already so we can test these things out.

for the sake of ba;ance i really doubt she can trigger witch time on projectiles.

 

[Skyfox2000]

I really don't think Witch Time is going to be that strict.

I'm going to really hate this move on For Glory.

 

[Kon]

I really don't think Witch Time is going to be that strict.

I'm going to really hate this move on For Glory.

Why? just always grab your enemy in for glory ;D

 

[Trexbor17]

I cant tell but i think youre agreeing with me about the dodgeroll Aerolink, btw thanks i didnt notice the spark at her feet

 

[Mr_Kreep3r]

If you listen closely to the explanation it says that "Bat Within protects Bayonetta, even when her dodge move is about to fail" So unless was mistranslated and he tried to say counter move, its safe to assume that Bat Within also activates on dodges and airdodges.

So I rewatched the shiek and samus bat within footage. Bayonnetta starts a Spot dodge animation vs samus charge shot. While vs shiek a backroll then a air dodge and last a forward roll. Its safe to assume you are correct and that the invincibility frames on Bayo's Roll and Dodges trigger bat within upon being hit.

So witch time bat within won't move you? Bat within from airdogde can't be frame trapped?

Is this just for visuals or... So many questions, so many theories, and a lot of possibilities. (Could be wrong, but the animations are diffrent)

Spoiler: See for your self

watch in .25 speed and watch Bayo's feet for sparks

Edit: Also is her spot dodge one on her taunts from her game (off topic)

 

[AeroLink_the_SoulMaster]

So I rewatched the shiek and samus bat within footage. Bayonnetta starts a Spot dodge animation vs samus charge shot. While vs shiek a backroll then a air dodge and last a forward roll. Its safe to assume you are correct and that the invincibility frames on Bayo's Roll and Dodges trigger bat within upon being hit.

So witch time bat within won't move you? Bat within from airdogde can't be frame trapped?

Is this just for visuals or... So many questions, so many theories, and a lot of possibilities. (Could be wrong, but the animations are diffrent)

Spoiler: See for your self

watch in .25 speed and watch Bayo's feet for sparks

Edit: Also is her spot dodge one on her taunts from her game (off topic)

That's does seem to be the case... I guess I've been wrong about the Bat Within triggers not being her actual dodges.

So, basically, Witch Time window could simply be this: Witch Time (perfect timing)->Witch Time/Bat Within (delayed timing)
And so, maybe Witch Time won't activate on projectiles (based off Mega Man's fsmash in the video). And Bat Within either activates when hit at the beginning frames of her dodges or maybe even throughout the entire duration of the move...

 

[Greda]

That's does seem to be the case... I guess I've been wrong about the Bat Within triggers not being her actual dodges.

So, basically, Witch Time window could simply be this: Witch Time (perfect timing)->Witch Time/Bat Within (delayed timing)
And so, maybe Witch Time won't activate on projectiles (based off Mega Man's fsmash in the video). And Bat Within either activates when hit at the beginning frames of her dodges or maybe even throughout the entire duration of the move...

So I rewatched the shiek and samus bat within footage. Bayonnetta starts a Spot dodge animation vs samus charge shot. While vs shiek a backroll then a air dodge and last a forward roll. Its safe to assume you are correct and that the invincibility frames on Bayo's Roll and Dodges trigger bat within upon being hit.

So witch time bat within won't move you? Bat within from airdogde can't be frame trapped?

Is this just for visuals or... So many questions, so many theories, and a lot of possibilities. (Could be wrong, but the animations are diffrent)

Spoiler: See for your self

watch in .25 speed and watch Bayo's feet for sparks

Edit: Also is her spot dodge one on her taunts from her game (off topic)

Not at my computer, so I can't look into this in as much depth as I'd like, but..

I don't believe her dodges make her go into Bat Within. The only example presented is her forward roll, and that makes Bayonetta go far lower at the start of the animation than the one she goes into Bat Within. I watched these in slow motion so I have a good idea.

As for it being a spot dodge, it's unlikely. Both as a mechanical feature, and a spot dodge. The spot dodge moves Bayonetta to the right which wouldn't make sense for a spot dodge.

It wouldn't make sense for Bayonetta to go into Bat Within and take damage in dodges anyway.