Let's Talk about Kongo Jungle 64

[cot(θ)]

Hey guys, since Kongo Jungle 64 is the "least banned" stage that hasn't been discussed yet (even being legal instead of Halberd at a recent regional in my area), I think it's time to put it to a vote.

http://smashboards.com/threads/kongo-jungle-64-research-thread.381839/

There are two potential problems with this stage, both of them centered around the barrel.

1. When recovering low, the barrel can intercept your recovery, coming into view of the camera too quickly for the player to react. If you're buffering an up-B and the barrel is facing down, it's game over for you.

See 16:50:

In my ruleset, I have a clause that states that either player may request fixed camera mode after the stage is selected. This deals with problem number 1.

2. Barrel camping.

This is potentially a lot more problematic. However, there are only 3 or 4 characters in the game that can do that safely, in that they won't die if the other player hogs the barrel (in fact, in that video you can see that if Jigglypuff doesn't execute the technique properly, even it will die if the opponent hogs the barrel, because it's too low to reach the stage). Which means it's pretty much only viable for Jigglypuff, Villager, probably Kirby and maybe Peach.

While it's unfortunate to have a stage that's effectively an insta-ban for 3-4 characters, this stage also has several unique features that make it an interesting stage, including its deeply sloped main platform, its multi-tiered platform layout, and its extremely high ceiling.

Personally, I think with a healthy stagelist and enough bans to go with it, it's not particularly harmful to have a stage that needs to be banned at all times against a few characters. There are already characters (and probably more than 3 or 4) for whom, say, Halberd is an insta-ban for its low ceiling, so it's not like it makes those characters more OP than anything we already have.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

I managed to take a Sonic here by Gentlemen's Agreement for game 3, and I won the round, because I knew he wanted to kill me off the top, so I knew the high ceiling here would give me the best chance. He didn't know the stage had such a high ceiling. God these East Coast Conservatives. This stage is great, I love it. I have to rely less T-Jolts with my Pika, but the weird central plat, multiple ways to come in while recovering, and barrel cannon getting some hype saves, its honestly a fantastic stage. I have no respect for any ruleset not running it for any reason that isn't "We needed to cut down to reach a good strike number."

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I have no respect for any ruleset not running it for any reason that isn't "We needed to cut down to reach a good strike number."

Speaking of which, this could present some serious problems with FLSS. If the number of equal stages isn't equal to 4n+1, then the entire thing falls apart. I don't know how many stages we have legal right now, but if it isn't exactly equal to either 9 or 13, there will be serious problems (one of the major reasons I support 5-stage starter lists instead).

This is kind of off-topic, though. Any tournament which uses a starter list and counterpicks has no excuse to not legalize KJ64 as a counterpick. It's a fantastic stage.

 

[Gawain]

I don't really have a problem with it. Why not just ban camping the barrels? DQ someone if they abuse it and just let it be.

That said, I think the current number of stages is more than fine enough and doesn't need to be messed with. @ TheHypnotoad put it best.

 

[Blue Warrior]

You could just have a barrel limit, like after one or two times of using the barrel you have to reach back onstage.

 

[erico9001]

Problem 1 seems way too circumstantial to matter.
1) Your character must have low recovery and you are utilizing it
2) The barrel must be in that exact position
3) It must be facing upside down
4) The camera must be hiding it, else you would know (and if you're recovering low, the camera would normally follow you)
Yeah, if it's really needed, you can just play in fixed camera mode. But... that's not going to ever really be needed .

So, problem 2...

Initially, I thought being out of a stage strike for these character would stink. However, on closer inspection, these 4 characters do not benefit insanely from other specific stages. You don't need to ban Delfino or Halberd, because the characters do not benefit from the low ceilings.

Against Jigglypuff, you'll want to ban KJ64 and Battlefield. All the others are relatively neutral. Source. Despite what you may think about Rest, Jigglypuff actually does not like low ceilings.

Peach you probably want to ban the same stages as Jiggs, and you'll be fine. Source

Villager is a bit different with this. Source. He likes Battlefield/Lylat Cruise a lot. At the start of the thread, there was some people saying KJ64 was actually bad for Villager, but later some saying it's decent for him. Stalling with the cannon was never brought up in the thread, though.

Kirby does not have much information on stages at all. They have a long MU/Stage discussion thread, but in the past, when I went through it all, I only really picked up that Battlefield seems good and T&C might be bad. Then, the only other information is either about 3ds stages or that apparently, Kirby can get some early U-throw kills off KJ64, T&C, and Duck Hunt? I'm not sure if that is something Kirby really looks for or something. Well, I guess you may have wanted to ban KJ64 already to begin with.

Coincidentally, KJ64 + Battlefield seem like the best choices for striking with all 4 characters. Of course, this depends on what character you yourself use. Interestingly, the only character mains that appear to be aware of the cannon stalling are Jigglypuff mains, right now.

The only character of these 4 that banning KJ64 might be a bad idea is Villager. If they do not know about the cannon stalling or consider the stage to be bad for them, striking the stage might be a waste when you could have striked either Battlefield or Lylat instead. If your tournament allows 3 strikes during counterpicking, then it is no decision at all. Otherwise, you might have to either let Villager play on a stage he likes or risk the small chance that he would know about cannon stalling, would actually do it, and would have the circumstances necessary to actually use it.

From what I have found today, my worries over having this stage legal have completely vanished. There is no reason to have this stage banned whatsoever. In practice with the striking system, cannon stalling presents no issue for the players at all.

Note:
I would like to note that a character will simply pass through the cannon if another is already in it. If a character commits too largely to the cannon stalling, the character might not be able to make it back to the stage without using the cannon. In that case, you could kill the person by just going in the cannon yourself.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Far too conducive to circle camping. As a Wario and Jigglypuff player, this stage is very unhealthy for the metagame.

 

[Overswarm]

Far too conducive to circle camping. As a Wario and Jigglypuff player, this stage is very unhealthy for the metagame.

It's better than Town and City or Smashville.

You can't circle camp on this stage at all, at least not more than you could on other stages. There are very clear ways to stop someone from attempting any sort of circle camping. If you'd ban the stage for circle camping here, you'd have to ban many other stages as well. T&C, Smashville, Delfino, Halberd...

Barrel camping isn't really an issue with any character specifically, but more the matchup. You could talk about about certain ones all day but ultimately it comes to this:

Kirby vs. Little Mac is impossible for Kirby to lose if Kirby has a % lead and gets in a barrel. Little Mac has a guaranteed loss.

Knowing this, the question is this:

Do you say "Little Mac is just an awful character, it's his fault. We don't ban stages because mediocre characters suck on them" or do you say "We don't allow auto-win stages"?

Should Little Mac need to ban this stage every set?

That's really the only deciding factor.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's better than Town and City or Smashville.

You can't circle camp on this stage at all, at least not more than you could on other stages. There are very clear ways to stop someone from attempting any sort of circle camping. If you'd ban the stage for circle camping here, you'd have to ban many other stages as well. T&C, Smashville, Delfino, Halberd...

Barrel camping isn't really an issue with any character specifically, but more the matchup. You could talk about about certain ones all day but ultimately it comes to this:

Kirby vs. Little Mac is impossible for Kirby to lose if Kirby has a % lead and gets in a barrel. Little Mac has a guaranteed loss.

Knowing this, the question is this:

Do you say "Little Mac is just an awful character, it's his fault. We don't ban stages because mediocre characters suck on them" or do you say "We don't allow auto-win stages"?

Should Little Mac need to ban this stage every set?

That's really the only deciding factor.

Is T&C really an issue? Isn't it "Final Destination with a shorter ceiling" for literally half the match? On Smashville, Delfino, and Halberd, there shouldn't be any situations that are as bad as what you're suggesting with KJ64 Kirby vs. Mac; you're still entirely capable of getting within range of the opponent even if it puts you in a bad position to do so.

 

[cot(θ)]

Speaking of which, this could present some serious problems with FLSS. If the number of equal stages isn't equal to 4n+1, then the entire thing falls apart. I don't know how many stages we have legal right now, but if it isn't exactly equal to either 9 or 13, there will be serious problems (one of the major reasons I support 5-stage starter lists instead).

This is kind of off-topic, though. Any tournament which uses a starter list and counterpicks has no excuse to not legalize KJ64 as a counterpick. It's a fantastic stage.

My plan is to just have up to 3 arbitrary stages as CP instead of starter. Why remove good stages from play entirely just because of the stage striking process? And after about 13 stages, FLSS becomes very obnoxious anyway, so I might continue to limit starters even if 17 legal stages is reached.

 

[Overswarm]

Is T&C really an issue? Isn't it "Final Destination with a shorter ceiling" for literally half the match? On Smashville, Delfino, and Halberd, there shouldn't be any situations that are as bad as what you're suggesting with KJ64 Kirby vs. Mac; you're still entirely capable of getting within range of the opponent even if it puts you in a bad position to do so.

Oh no -- Kirby vs. Mac on KJ64 is way worse than any of those stages.

But a Wario or Jiggs camping on KJ64 isn't much better or worse than camping on T&C, Delfino, Halberd, or Smashville. You have to remember that camping for 8 minutes for a guaranteed win is obviously an impossibility, otherwise you'd only need a small % lead or a stock lead and have a guaranteed win. What IS routinely possible is camping out the last minute with a stock lead or a two to three hit lead -- that's when most timeouts occur. For that situation, T&C, Delfino, Halberd, and KJ64 ar all in the same boat. T&C is actually the worst offender as a character like Greninja and Pikachu are literally untouchable due to the wide platform layouts, but this is only the case in certain transformations.

 

[Ulevo]

I fail to see how Halberd is prone to circle camping.

 

[Shaya]

Characters traversing under the stage regain invincibility when crossing to the other side.
I don't know if there was maybe something else that was causing it, but a 5 jumper on any of the "sharking" stages have feasible circle camping strategies.

In Halberd's case the length of time on either of the two parts is random, hence it becomes a more noticeable possibility in lower stocks / shorter time limits.

 

[Infinite901]

My only question is: what happens if someone is in the cannon and someone else tries to go in?

 

[Overswarm]

I fail to see how Halberd is prone to circle camping.

Characters with high air mobility (e.g., Wario on speed bike, Jigglypuff, Pikachu with standard QA, etc.) can stall out for a bit under 30 seconds or so before being forced into an engagement -- during transformations, you can add another 10 seconds or so. Wario can go from the top platform in the first transformation off his bike, jump, use his other bike in the air underneath the stage and then use his regular jump to go on stage or alternatively up+b towards the ledge. If he grabs the ledge, he becomes invincible and can either start the process over again by jumping off the ledge and using his bike or by dropping from the ledge, using his bike, then quickly jumping back on the stage.

The only part Wario can potentially be damaged in that exchange is during his exit from the ledge during a jump or when he's coming back to the stage/ledge from underneath with no more ledge invincibility.

 

[Ulevo]

Edit: Never mind.

 

[Pazx]

While I like this stage, OP focuses on two trivial issues when the only real strike against this stage is the potential for circle camping and thus doesn't do justice to just how big or small that issue is. I think the point about how this stage being stupid for agile characters is no different to Halberd being stupid for vertical killers is something I've personally overlooked and to have one legal over the other to me seems completely arbitrary.

I have no respect for any ruleset not running it for any reason that isn't "We needed to cut down to reach a good strike number."

This is the single worst argument against a stage's legality I have ever heard.

 

[Raijinken]

Seeing as even Battlefield is circle-able for agile characters against those who are less so, matchup-specific circle camping seems like a weak argument. And while the "best stage" (Smashville) is an instant strike against the "best character" (Sheik), I think it's fair to have must-strikes.

I support the stage.

 

[erico9001]

My only question is: what happens if someone is in the cannon and someone else tries to go in?

Note:
I would like to note that a character will simply pass through the cannon if another is already in it. If a character commits too largely to the cannon stalling, the character might not be able to make it back to the stage without using the cannon. In that case, you could kill the person by just going in the cannon yourself.

 

[SphericalCrusher]

Absolutely. This is a good stage for competitive play for many different reasons, and probably one of the best counter-pick stages IMO.

 

[cot(θ)]

Added a video showcasing issue #1. If anyone knows how I can get it to start at a particular time, please let me know.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Added a video showcasing issue #1. If anyone knows how I can get it to start at a particular time, please let me know.

IDK about embedded videos, but for URLs add "&t=XXmYYs" to the end (where XX = the minutes and YY = the seconds).

Example link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNl6zWFHaJk&t=16m50s

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Has anyone ever actually stalled out the majority of a tournament match via barrel camping, and if so, was it captured on video? This stage has been legal in my region since day one, I've never seen anyone try, and I have very significant doubts such a tactic would see success in any match-up not involving Little Mac (who can more easily be beaten just by camping the top platforms, a tactic that is really bad for Little Mac on more stages than just this which is why Little Mac is a counterpick tier character in every ruleset). It seems to me that trying the barrel camping would just be really risky if your opponent was good enough at the game to exploit the commitment of the whole thing; there are all kinds of ways even Kirby could get killed messing around down there by an opponent who was ready and waiting to take advantage of the situation.

Timeouts do happen here somewhat more than on other stages just because the blast zones are pretty far out, but otherwise, I haven't observed this stage to be unusually slow paced. The only match-ups I think you'd see long term run-away are ones in which that's a workable tactic on all stages; obviously some depressing MU like Shulk vs Sonic will involve a lot of running away here, but that's kinda the story of that MU everywhere and I'm not really convinced Kongo makes it any worse than it already was. At least I haven't seen evidence of that fact, and my experiences with this stage have been pretty positive as long as Little Mac has not been involved.

 

[Deleted member]

This is like my favorite stage and i'm really bummed it is not really legal in any tournaments near me. I feel the barrel camping reason doesn't make since. I feel as though it is pretty easy to punish when they shoot out of them, and they can accidentally kill themselves.

 

[WD40]

No thanks, I hate that stupid dip in the stage.

 

[Rinku リンク]

I don't particularly like the stage because of the awkward geography, blast zones, and the random barrel factor. Though I don't think it should be illegal by any means.

 

[[Deuce]]

KJ 64 needs to be a thing, I'm tired of battlefield being the only go-to place for large blastzones. Just place a consecutive barrel limit, and I haven't seen any evidence of circle camping as of yet