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This was less than two months ago.
Also aMSa
What I find ironic is that Marth also would have satisfied Armada's MU struggles. While Fox is definitely better vs Puff, I generally feel Marth is an easier pick vs Fox, Falco, and himself at top level play. I also feel like Armada's more punish oriented style would have lent itself to a Marth secondary than a Fox one.
I was watching Mang0's stream and found out why he doesn't like the ditto. He played Fox prior to becoming a professional and used to bop Lucky's Link when they were younger. Then Mang0 "retired" and Lucky practiced Fox. When they played each other next, Lucky destroyed him every time. He hasn't played a single Fox ditto since.
Armada has said that fox wins vs everyone but himself, so by that logic he should play fox based off his own opinion right? Also I disagree that Marth is easier; Marth has to play so precise especially in neutral. Also Armada mained Marth at some point, and has played him some amount, so I think he knows what suits him the best.
If Armada mained Marth at any point, it was probably at the very beginning of career. I am fairly certain he has been dedicated to Peach since '07. Maybe even earlier.
Spacies and ICs are definitely the hardest to play. I think Puff takes the least tech skill but the most skill in a lot of other areas, but to play Sheik you need to know 2 things to do okay: Down throw and fair. If you want to be really good, you might want to learn Nair OoS. As for Marth, the only truly difficult thing to learn is the tipper spacing on every move, and once you learn it you really can't unlearn it unless you take up Marth in another game.
I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to argue. Especially when you called PP's opinion anecdotal. He is arguably the best player in the world at his respective characters and I think if anyone could accurately articulate which one is harder, it'd be him.
That grossly underestimates both Sheik and Marth. There is a lot more to Marth than learning how to tip everything, also, that said, tipping when you need to and not tipping when you don't requires more precision than most things the spacies do because the sweetspot for tips are much tighter. That, in and of itself, shouldn't be discredited or written off.
PP's account of things is anecdotal evidence because he is simply one person. It doesn't matter if he is the best in the world, because everyone functions differently and will have their own subjective experience. Unless you can show data from multiple sources that show a trend that Marth is always easier to play, you can't say that Marth is always easier for everyone to play. Personally, some players find rush down to be their means of control, and Marth can't really do that, and for players like that I would assume they would not find Marth as easy to play as a spacie, for example.
A Peach player could find emotional discomfort in playing Ice Climbers. Doesn't change the fact that Peach bodies ICs.
I implied character specific things. Obviously Marth requires knowledge of chaingrab percents, a very unique spacing mindset, and lots of general tech skill, but that doesn't change that he's far easier than many other characters. And the Sheik thing was a dryly humorous nod at how people joke about her skill floor. Also, perfect nair OoS with Sheik is pretty hard actually.
IIRC, Shroomed said on twitter that he started to enjoy Sheik more. He said anyone could take Doc far if they put in the effort.
You seem to think that spacing is tested equally for all characters, when in fact it isn't. That was my point in mentioning Marth's spacing to Bismo. Sometimes the player has to make a call about getting a tip or not within a fraction of a second, and the right decision leads to a combo and the other doesn't, and it takes far more precision to land a tipper (as well as setting up your positioning for it to be possible beforehand) than it does for Fox and Falco's moves. That is because the sweetspots on their movies are much larger and more forgiving, as well as the fact that their combos seem to be more focussed on being incredibly close to their opponents.
I never said spacing wasn't tested differently. I said technical demands are tested differently and I would argue spacing is one those. And yeah, it takes more precision to land a tipper with Marth than an aerial with Fox/Falco, but Marth can pressure shields with like 2 inputs whereas Fox/Falco can require upwards up 5 in rapid succession. Marth messing up his spacing could be the difference between getting a hit or getting a kill, whereas Fox/Falco messing up their spacing could be the difference between life or death.
Except Marth can't really pressure shields, unless that character has really poor OoS options, like Link or Samus. The reason for that is because, while a tippered aerial on shield is safe on block, you actually position to tipper your opponent, not his shield. The only time Marth can, and should, apply pressure through aerials is in a situation where his opponent is still, or stuck in place. Throwing out aerials for pressure, otherwise, will get you killed, because they aren't safe.
Of course Peach can beat down the ICs in that matchup. I never addressed this point because this has nothing to do with my argument. Just because certain characters have objective strengths against other characters doesn't change the fact that not everyone matches up with that character, or that they are willing to learn that character to exploit their strengths.
Er, what? You either have the most complex definition of shield pressure or you have never played Marth. Marth shield pressure mostly involves dtilting and waiting lol. A well spaced dtilt can't even be punished by a frame perfect Fox wavedashing OoS to shine before another dtilt comes out and characters with slower wavedashes are even more ****ed. As long as your spacing is somewhat decent, the only characters that could probably counter dtilt pressure are nair/fair OoS from Falcon and Marth respectively. Even then, you could probably just CC or shield against those options and punish accordingly.
It has everything to do with this discussion. Characters have objective strengths just as much as they have objective requirements to play. Subjectivity and emotional comfort is secondary because you could argue it for anything. Westballz camping out Armada on battlefield is objectively more effective and easier due to having lower APM than traditional play. Arguing that "some people won't enjoy playing that way" is getting in the way of those facts.
Sure, if you want to nitpick things down to each individual matchup and character specific things then yes, that is obviously a part of a character's overall difficulty, but I'm talking from a very macro-perspective because it's impossible for any of us to agree upon something that is so micro. On a macro level, people tend to play characters that match the style of play they prefer, and that does have a psychological affect on people. It's much easier to go with the tide than against it, and for some people, Marth's reliance on patient, semi-reactive play would be more difficult than Fox/Falco's barrage with safe pressure and rush-down style.
Out of Shield
Mookie, no. A disjointed, low range poke with 6 frames of shieldstun and 13 to 11 frames of cooldown is absurdly good on shields and its among the many reasons why this move is so good in neutral. All pressure really is is threatening your opponent with impending danger. If someone is shielding and you dtilt them, you are establishing a threat and coaxing them to commit to an OoS option (13+ frames of WD OoS, 27+ frame spot dodge, 30+ frame rolls, 3+ frames of jumpsquat + airborne frames). Wouldn't this set up for Marth's "ability to counter everything" as you go on about later?
I think you have it the wrong way around. The nitpick here is the classic "well, if you think about it..." mentality which is the reason you are bringing the human element into this conversation. An otherwise straightforward analysis of components in the game is being needlessly confounded by this perspective. Is it unapplicable? No. It's just that you can argue for the human element in virtually every situation and ignore core facts that existed prior. Falcon can dthrow a fastfaller into the corner of the stage and cover no tech, tech away, and tech in place with one option. The human element could dictate that teching in is the most common option, but that doesn't change the fact that three options can be covered at once.
