Lets talk about Armada's Fox

[Kerpy Derp]

Also shout out to DarkBlueSpark for helping a scrub like me may his Kirby's rek forever

 

[MookieRah]

A poke isn't pressure... A poke is a poke. You can use whatever definition of shield pressure you want, but dtilt is a poke.

Also, explain to me how Marth couldn't just CC, dash dance grab, utilt, or dash dance fair to punish an aerial OoS after dtilting them? Or better yet, show me footage of a high level Marth actually getting punished with an aerial OoS when perfectly spacing dtilt (excluding Marth or Falcon since they have already been accounted for).

You won't get punished on reaction for a perfect spaced dtilt, you get punished if they expect it and throw an aerial in your face. There is a reason that several people will tell you to be careful about your dtilt usage against the spacies and falcon, because it they predict you are going for it then they will simply hop over and punish you for it. Also, CC isn't some kind of magical thing that works against everything. Enjoy Falcon stomps or crossups from spacies. If your opponent is able to cross you up, then Marth won't have a way to punish their action, and a lot of times in these scenarios they will want to cross you up because most dtilts happen when Marth pushes into his opponents's zone to make a poke. In this way, you not only take free damage, but you have also lost stage control.

If dtilt was anything like you said it is you'd see people downright spamming it all the time in neutral, and that is not the case. Go and watch PP vids.

Its really similar to classic "Mango pressure" where he gets his opponent in shield and starts dashdancing to bait a roll or punishable option.

That is why that is called Mango pressure and not shield pressure. You are threatening your opponent with movement while they are stuck in shield. Also, Mango does this to his opponents when they are pinned to the ledge, when they have even less options. You don't see this happening in the middle of the stage. I've already pointed out that, in those situations, Marth can use aerials to put up real shield pressure.

No. It's just that you can argue for the human element in virtually every situation and ignore core facts that existed prior.

Which is why I said in the beginning that I think the spacies are, actually, objectively harder to play. My only assertion here is that, A: I don't think it's by a very large margin, and B: not everyone would feel like PP does regarding Marth being less of a mental strain. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm arguing anything else.

 

[Flippy Flippersen]

Why are you guys arguing about what character is hardest to use in absolute top level of play. Staying on said level is the hard part of top level play. Characters are picked based on what will allow a top player to win most. If players didn't think fox was their best chance to win (or in other words the easiest character for them specifically) we wouldn't have that many foxes. On the same note it's not like there aren't people who feel that way about marth.

Having a discussion on what character it is easiest to win with for people who already have decided what characters they believe in is silly. Armada believes fox has the easiest time winning. PP believes this is the case for marth.
Armada practices insane amounts of time to not flub tech. PP studies all his important opponents as much as possible and tries to basically find all the holes in their defenses. Armada's huge amount of tech practice makes fox for him a perfectly doable character and the insane tools fox has benefit him most. PPs knowledge of what do to against his opponents to put them in bad spots makes marth a better pick.

The hardest characters at top level are characters that don't have tools and fox/marth aren't lacking tools. As long as those tools don't get counters it is completely irrelevant what the players have to make them good since if they weren't able to they had to switch or weren't able to reach top level to begin with.

If you're talking lower levels or even mid levels of play fox is prolly harder to play cause everyone knows the matchup. Everyone has an insanely hard combo on you. Everyone will train to hit every single mistake you hit and you will make a lot of mistakes. (not being a top level player afterall)

 

[MookieRah]

Why are you guys arguing about what character is hardest to use in absolute top level of play. Staying on said level is the hard part of top level play. Characters are picked based on what will allow a top player to win most. If players didn't think fox was their best chance to win (or in other words the easiest character for them specifically) we wouldn't have that many foxes. On the same note it's not like there aren't people who feel that way about marth.

Thanks, actually. You summed up my entire argument in a paragraph.

 

[1MachGO]

A poke isn't pressure... A poke is a poke. You can use whatever definition of shield pressure you want, but dtilt is a poke.

A poke can't be used for pressure? I don't really get what you are trying to prove with this statement.

You won't get punished on reaction for a perfect spaced dtilt, you get punished if they expect it and throw an aerial in your face. There is a reason that several people will tell you to be careful about your dtilt usage against the spacies and falcon, because it they predict you are going for it then they will simply hop over and punish you for it. Also, CC isn't some kind of magical thing that works against everything. Enjoy Falcon stomps or crossups from spacies. If your opponent is able to cross you up, then Marth won't have a way to punish their action, and a lot of times in these scenarios they will want to cross you up because most dtilts happen when Marth pushes into his opponents's zone to make a poke. In this way, you not only take free damage, but you have also lost stage control.

This is a strawman. I was talking about how safe dtilt is on shield. I never said it couldn't be countered in neutral.

If dtilt was anything like you said it is you'd see people downright spamming it all the time in neutral, and that is not the case. Go and watch PP vids.

Dtilt is probably the only move in Marth's arsenal that comes close to being spammable. You might not see it as much against characters who alternate between air and ground based approaches (i.e. the fast fallers) but you'll see it frequently see it as Marth's go to move to bait, assert stage control, establish threats, etc.

And PP uses dtilt, he just doesn't have to when people respect it. Here are some quotes from one of his AMAs:

"Falco is very good at controlling the opponent and Marth controls space well too, so imagine the threat of your Dtilt or Fair to be like a more theoretical laser that's always out and bigger haha. Falco's movement is actually pretty good when combined with laser so applying some DD and WD tricks to having a laser threat is quite strong from a Marth background!"

"Marth I approach with dash/WD inward Dtilt, but then I don't have to Dtilt so I just dash/WD and get free stage because they respect Dtilt LOL Marth's great."

That is why that is called Mango pressure and not shield pressure. You are threatening your opponent with movement while they are stuck in shield. Also, Mango does this to his opponents when they are pinned to the ledge, when they have even less options. You don't see this happening in the middle of the stage. I've already pointed out that, in those situations, Marth can use aerials to put up real shield pressure.

Its still a form of shield pressure lol and just as good if not better than physically attacking a shield. Attacking with aerials are good in that position, but I would argue a simple dtilt is more threatening (since it could shield poke and is easier to space) or a dashdance (which maintains optimal frame advantage).

Shield pressure almost exclusively occurs by the ledge because this is when the opponent has the least amount of options and is most likely to put up their shield. Citing they need to be by the ledge is moot.

Which is why I said in the beginning that I think the spacies are, actually, objectively harder to play. My only assertion here is that, A: I don't think it's by a very large margin, and B: not everyone would feel like PP does regarding Marth being less of a mental strain. I'm not sure where you get the idea that I'm arguing anything else.

I don't have any qualms with your first assertion but I take issue with the way you are trying to use speculative subjectivity as an argument. PP is not the only top level player who finds Marth easier than spacies (see: M2K, Hax, Mango, etc.) and it is more or less definitive that Marth is easier from upper mid level play and down.

But yeah, this is getting off topic at this point and we never inherently disagreed at the true heart of the matter, just the finer points, so its whatever.

@ Flippy Flippersen

Marth being easier than Fox was only a single reason as to why I pondered Armada not opting for him. Armada is a player renowned for his rigid emphasis towards perfecting the punish game. I felt Marth embodied that style of play more-so than Fox and him being easier to play in some of the specific MUs he struggled in was a bonus. Of course, I now realize that Armada initially developed Fox for Puff and putting time into a different character when his Fox is already suitable for those problem MUs would have been inefficient. Perhaps if he foresaw how much he'd struggle with Peach things would have gone differently.

 

[MookieRah]

But yeah, this is getting off topic at this point and we never inherently disagreed at the true heart of the matter, just the finer points, so its whatever.

I think the biggest issue is we are disagreeing with definitions of words, tbh, at least lately. Mainly, defining shield pressure. To me, it's more literal, for you, not so much. Like what I was trying to say with poking, I don't think it's shield pressure because you throw it out often in neutral, or in other words, before you even know your opponent will shield or not. I also think of threatening movement, whether they are in shield or not, would be baiting/approaching, and not so much shield pressure.

But yeah, no point in going on and on about it. I don't think we can reconcile our different views regarding the difficulty of tech skill at the highest level of play.