Ledge Snap Vulnerability - Can we take advangate of this?

[Dr. Tuen]

http://smashboards.com/threads/ledge-snap-vulnerability-edge-guarding-tech-video.383410/

Hey all,

In the above thread, the video seems to show a 1-frame window of vulnerability that occurs when someone snaps to the ledge. It looks like some characters can stay comfortably on the stage as they deliver an attack to the recovering party, but some have to drop and take the fight to them.

I don't have anyone to help me test this with, so I'm wondering if any of you can help answer this question: what tools do we have to take advantage of this? Can we hit a recovering character safely from the stage? Maybe using side B or Dsmash? If Dsmash works on-stage, that could lead to some wicked follow ups.

What do you all think? Is this a real thing? If it is, how can we use it?

 

[DeLux]

It's a real thing that's been known since day 1 or 2.

I think there's a five frame window on dsmash that we'd be able to hit people, but I haven't tested it extensively. I've had mixed results, but I'm pretty bad since I'm not used to Dsmash release timing/range in this game. I've been better at landing a two frame Bair window than Dsmash lol, but Bair obviously has positioning disadvantages.

I'll look into it on Friday.


Fortunately this isn't something we have to worry about too much because of the options entailed with our tether grab and flip jump and boost kick.

 

[Brian_Buckley]

I'd say a Dsmash and dtilt would be pretty effective for this. Basically you want anything with a long active hitbox to guarantee your timing. It's may even be possible to abuse this off ledge by jumping off and doing a nair as a mixup. This obviously wouldn't work with Sheik though as the puff from the UpB will hit you.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

The latest Nairo ZSS video in our video thread is a good example for what can be done with dsmash.
It needs to be tested but my guess is we could follow up with a bair or nair for a stage spike at higher %.

 

[DeLux]

I tried for about 30 mins, but dddsmash was not workinig very well on sheik lol

however was drinkinga heavily wahile testing lol

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

I hope I can do some testing over the next two weeks together with a friend and finally be useful for the ZSSamus community.

 

[pichuthedk]

Well TBH I think in most of those cases reality will have us probably hit them off stage and then wait for them to try and recover , What about flip jump kick spike? (I'd say footstool spike but that's a bit weaker and has certain conditions that must be met before they can be hurt). The kick would be more reliable because we won't be as far off stage with the proper control/anticipation of when they will reach the ledge.

 

[NickRiddle]

Flip Kick and DSmash are great for this.

 

[MrEh]

Hey yall, just hopping in because you guys are like the only board to make a thread about this for your respective character.

We did record a handful of ZSS clips, but we never used them in the video since the results weren't as impactful as some of the other characters. Onstage, Dsmash actually does work. It's just not very consistent compared to some of the other character's options. And yes, Flip Kick also works.

What about flip jump kick spike?

We actually tried to get ZSS to jump off people's heads for the longest time, but that didn't seem possible. If it is, the window is really tight.


Ledgedropping, double jumping, and aerialing actually works though. Since you have a goddamn tether, it's actually kind of easy to set this positioning up.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

We actually tried to get ZSS to jump off people's heads for the longest time, but that didn't seem possible. If it is, the window is really tight.

That's a shame. I was hoping that'd work. I think the flip jump has the most consecutive active frames of any move we've got. But dsmash may be the way to go otherwise. SideB might hit low enough too, but if it does it'd have the lowest KO potential of the options we've got listed so far.

 

[MrEh]

The flip jump kick itself does work, and you do have enough time to react to Sheik's UpB and do it.

It's just a matter of getting the timing down. I honestly think it's worth learning just because it's funny and because it's against Sheik.

 

[DeLux]

I am still unable to get dsmash to work on most characters approaching from straight down (without alcohol johns this time). i'm wondering if the positioning/angle of approach changes hurtbox orientation when grabbing the ledge during the first frame?

I could also be bad. Like I can get a 2 frame active Bair occasionally, but I can't get a 5 frame active dsmash some kind of bad lol

 

[pichuthedk]

The reason people don't get footstool ed from flip jump is due to about 4 things.

1. They have thrown out an attack which could also be certain specials (all directions depending upon the character)
[note that not every move will protect you from it]
2. Invinibility/ intangibility
3. They are too low and flip jump ends
4. Super armor.
@ MrEh

And I was talking about the actual kick like you said after. Down smash seems like it will only work on those recovery moves where the character is literally reaching for that ledge , I guess people like link Marth Lucia etc despite you probably getting hit if not spaced right.

 

[MrEh]

That might be what's occurring here. Can't say we really looked into ZSS all that much, since we sort of stopped once we figured out that random aerials and flip kick worked.

I could also be bad. Like I can get a 2 frame active Bair occasionally, but I can't get a 5 frame active dsmash some kind of bad lol

It probably depends on the recovery now that I think about it. I'll look into it a little later.

 

[pichuthedk]

@ MrEh The one thing that I feel needs to addressed in terms of educated people about zss is that down b's completely exploitable weakness, Is that when she flip jumps people can literally just jump under her /air dodge upwards into her at the apex.

This forces zss to do the footstool which leaves her in the animation after footstool till she hits the ground or drops a certain vertical distance.

Because of this she can be followed up on harsly depending on certain circumstances like stages with platforms or how well she maneuvers back to the ground.
I noticed that aND am working on only using flip jump to trap them from ledge get ups, air dodges from lasers.