Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[#HBC | Laundry]

So my hotel room last night consisted of PJB, GLG, WOTT, and myself.

Based on the evidence I received in thread, Rake was targeted before the DDoS, long before I ever mentioned anything about the cop, but I don't know a couple of things. If that was a trigger message that activated later, then I have nothing to say as I gain nothing from that. If, however, the message and the kill were unrelated, then it opens up the possibility that a member of my hotel room was the killer.

I don't want to say that. I really don't. WOTT and PJB have been fairly town up to this point and I just can't see GLG being supersacked like that (even though it's possible). But I do have to consider the possibility of it happening. I still think it's not WOTT and it's not me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Is this the post that steadied scum's hand? Are these the words that pulled the trigger?

Personally this made me think he was likely the cop or at least he moved up on my list, I wanted to talk t Laundry about who was more likely to be the cop.

I was purposely not cheating all game to try and get people to think I was the cop but seems Rake did something that tipped them off or someone said something.

I still think the message sent is a very likely factor but I gotta brainstorm on what made them pull the trigger on Rake over others.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So my hotel room last night consisted of PJB, GLG, WOTT, and myself.

Based on the evidence I received in thread, Rake was targeted before the DDoS, long before I ever mentioned anything about the cop, but I don't know a couple of things. If that was a trigger message that activated later, then I have nothing to say as I gain nothing from that. If, however, the message and the kill were unrelated, then it opens up the possibility that a member of my hotel room was the killer.

I don't want to say that. I really don't. WOTT and PJB have been fairly town up to this point and I just can't see GLG being supersacked like that (even though it's possible). But I do have to consider the possibility of it happening. I still think it's not WOTT and it's not me.

I don't.

It's too much of a coincidence that the night after he gets that scum shoots him. A bit of WIFOM but really right after he got it he dies.

I have a hard time seeing that be unrelated.

 

[Kantrip]

Basically if cop truly can't do anything anymore, the tier system is pretty destroyed.

It would still help us catch scum and I still think it has merit, but once we find the scum we can only use suspicion to give their opponent a colour buff. Doesn't help much.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Think of it like voting, just instead of lynching you help someone win a match.

 

[Kantrip]

Well yeah that was always the idea.

You know that role that makes the lynch only between two people?

Let's treat every single match like that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Pretty much.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

no, look at our hotel room first before we look at pawn.

Quoting this so you read this when you're back here.

Rake flipped town and that is something we, and everyone, needs to look at. His interactions now take a new light and how people handled his slot, even more so when people put it under scrutiny, is something that is going to help us with our removal choice.

I don't like Soup more off a Rake town flip, but I'm gonna reread interactions before I can get a list, but something I think we need look at asap for removal targeting.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

guise guise guise guise guise guise guise guise!

Gheb had Rake as a townread when EVERYONE thought he was scum. Cuz he knew he was scum. Then Gheb disappears without a trace, and life goes on for awhile. Then Circus replaces in, and Rake drops dead.

Is this the post that steadied scum's hand? Are these the words that pulled the trigger?

Circus clearly noticed something in Rake's play. I think he decided he had all he needed to pull the trigger.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Circus is scum. Discuss?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

first off, if it was anyone in pur room it was GLG. I doubt the message was connected to the kill now because each mafiat only affects one phase, and the message was recieved at night whilr rake got axed during morning, so it is two different scummers doing it. morning phase scummer might have used this to influence his shot, but i dont think message was the cause if the shot action itself.
Joker, rake had mad obvious tourney crumbs and i think gheb picked up on that and was the basis of his town read, those crumbs were actually what caused me to take a second look at rake in the first place.also gheb thought scum didnt know who each other were so he was either wifoming us on that or scumgheb had no idea who his mates were so he still had to scumhunt on it to figurw it out.
Ryu, why soup more scum on rake town?
Laundry, who if not pawn? fyi we did think over our hotel room but the only one it might be is glg

 

[Wots All This Then?]

of we're gonna call people scum for baseless raketown reads i think shoco's is worsenthen gheb's tbh

 

[Wots All This Then?]

op confirms copnwas the only town pr soup.

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Confirmation:

Anomandaris_Rake is dead and cannot post in this game any longer, nor interact with any of the players in it.

 

[ranmaru]

I'm still good with Circus going, actually. His posts haven't really relieved my concerns of his slot. For example:

Washed/Rake from a couple pages back is interesting with hindsight.

Washed, talk about Rake's flip. Say anything.

Is pseudo content. 'interesting with hindsight' doesn't really show a stance. It's less than weak. It's weaksauce.

I have a problem with Circus not catching up or even trying to get some sort of read on people, nor does he take the opportunity to respond to me.

Does no one have a problem with this? I'm pretty sure we all had a problem with Kantrip not reading and not giving reads, this is similar. Someone talk to me about this, while I do dishes.

 

[ranmaru]

Red Ryu, question. Now that the cop is dead, my cop read on you doesn't matter anymore. (It was a secret cop read, duh)

Why are you in the shadows so much this game, I'm wondering?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Red Ryu, question. Now that the cop is dead, my cop read on you doesn't matter anymore. (It was a secret cop read, duh)

Why are you in the shadows so much this game, I'm wondering?

I was trying to make it look like I was a likely cop guess, aka I never cheated in any of my games and played less front line.

I noticed the cop can't cheat part and started to play around making sure I fit as a likely cop target, because what I think some people forgot about is that by cheating they tell scum they aren't the cop.

 

[ranmaru]

Ok then. Well now that we know what you were trying to do, gives reason for you to get more into the fray, right? So talk to me reads wise, and especially talk to me about Circus.

You know. Now that Rake flips cop, it pisses me off even further. Like, it shows he wasn't really reading what I have said in thread about our cheating habits, but targets us anyways and then after seeing we cheated, asks us why we cheated. Just stating this to get this off my chest. Dropping this now and I'll be like WHY RAKE WHY endgame.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

...God dammit.

Though we get it, Rake is dead. Now what?

I still say we Bye washedlaundry. I might reevaluate my scumreads.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

we have a lot more to do now then just bye wl

 

[ranmaru]

we have a lot more to do now then just bye wl

Like talk about Circus.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Alright, I got a break for lunch and I've been wanting to post since this morning. This post won't be as formatted as it would on computer, so forgive me.

I see us handling this situation in two ways.

1. We bye washedlaundry, don't use the removal. This is a much more safer alternative as I feel the risk/reward of removing circus doesn't stack up. Were already down one town aligned member, and I don't feel we need to put ourselves in a hole deeper. Even the factor of being correct seems risky. We want to ensure townies are in placement and getting wins. I know it sounds really obvious, but work with me here. PJB's theory about jerkus shooting rake doesn't make sense because he just replaced in and that shot seemed really orchestrated. I think maf have somewhat of a rolecop only in the sense that they can contact specific roles but the player is not revealed. When rake responded saying they thought he was cop or whatnot, he fell into their trap. Its obvious to me now that someone was given the signal to use his gun then, which implies some sort of communication between scum. I don't think they're in a qt per se, but this rolespycop whatever obviously can coordinate and contact who he pleases. This is all theory but I feel its relevant, as it as it helps discern motives. Getting back to my original point, its safer to not use the removal. I think if were really concerned about placement, we can coordinate matches. Jerkus, are you okay with losng your match intentionally if asked to? If you're concerned about jerkus then just knock him down further in the bracket and try and make other townies place higher. Without a tourney cop, it will be realy easy to cheat now and if we don't coordinate and pla ahead, people re just going to cheat freely and without repercussion. We have to take a more direct approach here.

 

[ranmaru]

We have to take a more direct approach here.

You're right.

Remove: Circus

Soup, what's your read on Circus?

 

[ranmaru]

Wait. Wait. Wait. Uhhh...this could be a town shot.

There is no way this is possible.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

2. We remove pawn or jerkus. Use the bye on someone else. I'm honestly all for taing the risk here if the ends justify the means. I feel as if there is a huge possibility of both being maf, but I m ooking at this much more mechanical. If we remove jerkus and he's town, then pawn claims a top spot along with me, and since I really suspect pawn, this is something I don't want to deal with. I think we should look back at matches a bit more and question them further. Pawns winning streak is really fishy in its own regard, along with gheb, but the difference is that we've concluded that rake is town, and there were no ulterior motives. Who was paw up against in his two matches? Ill look into this more when I'm on a computer.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

@ran I wouldn't cry if he got removed; I suspect pawn and jerkus equally, with a slight favor on pawn. Also, I know. It was late and I was overthinking

 

[ranmaru]

Then get on this removewagon with me. I'm not interested in pawn being removed, best choice now is Circus especially since we don't have a cop. This is our last chance in removing someone so I think he's the best. I wouldn't mind you/Kantrip either but Circus's recent play does not help me to read his slot better, so I'm fine with him being gone.

Overthinking? Why were you overthinking?

 

[ranmaru]

To clarify, I simply want to understand your thought process when reacting to the kill. This is a pre-emptive "Why would you ask this question" thing.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

pawn played rake and kantrip iirc, def kantrip less sure rake

 

[ranmaru]

WOTT. What's your read on Circus? At this point, it's kind of important for you to talk more about him, if you prefer Pawn over him.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

more so lost town circus, ddietz and i prefer pawn over him as we layednout above iirc,

 

[Circus]

We talk in thread about what moves we're using, super open like. You make sure the townier player knows what you're doing so they can beat it.

And yeah the point is that in cycle 2 you let yourself get eliminated from the tourney so townier people advance. Because our win-con is to have town win the tournament, not ourselves (sorry if I'm ruining your individual win-con but our collective one is more important).

Nah, see, that second part is where you've lost me. In cycle 1, it makes sense to do this in order to have some control over where your town reads are standing in the brackets. If, for example, I were matched against WATT, and I wanted him to rise in the ranks (bonus if I don't really care about Koops, which I happen not to), I could throw the match to get his chances of surviving to cycle 2 improved without dipping too drastically myself. This only works in cycle 1, and only with players in "safe" standing, such as soup, pawn, or myself (PJB's looking okay too).

In cycle 2, this is pants-on-head-stupid, even if we still had the cop around. We have no way of removing people from the tournament once it properly starts outside of beating them in a match, meaning that the only tool we have to help us is Suspicion, which could be an incredibly advantageous ability, but is not a guaranteed scum remover. Scum could claim in thread and we wouldn't have a surefire way to eliminate them in that moment. In that scenario, it makes no sense whatsoever to surrender an elimination match to an even moderately strong town read. I am confirmed town to myself. The other player, regardless of who they are, is not confirmed town to me. It is only logical to try to beat them.

This thread of discussion isn't actually as important anymore with Washed's revelation, but I wanted to get this out of the way. Using this idea past cycle one is foolish and I hope no one does it.

More after noms.

 

[Kantrip]

The cop being around would have made it work.

Now, everyone might as well just try to win as we cluster**** our way through the tournament with no direction until either town or scum inevitably win.

 

[Circus]

So my hotel room last night consisted of PJB, GLG, WOTT, and myself.

Based on the evidence I received in thread, Rake was targeted before the DDoS, long before I ever mentioned anything about the cop, but I don't know a couple of things. If that was a trigger message that activated later, then I have nothing to say as I gain nothing from that. If, however, the message and the kill were unrelated, then it opens up the possibility that a member of my hotel room was the killer.

Can you elaborate on the bolded? What do you mean by "evidence I received in thread?"

 

[ranmaru]

Again, circus. What's your opinion of me?

 

[ranmaru]

Washed where are you. ;-; You are the only person I can trust that can post alot in thread and bounce ideas with me.

 

[Circus]

guise guise guise guise guise guise guise guise!

Gheb had Rake as a townread when EVERYONE thought he was scum. Cuz he knew he was scum. Then Gheb disappears without a trace, and life goes on for awhile. Then Circus replaces in, and Rake drops dead.

Circus clearly noticed something in Rake's play. I think he decided he had all he needed to pull the trigger.

Awfully quick to point the finger. Interesting that everyone else's first reaction is "whoa what happened who did that let's figure this out" and yours is "IT WAS CIRCUS (conveniently the slot that everyone hated pre-replacement)."

I just replaced in. Ran's been up my ass about reading the first 60+ pages of the thread (which I will not be able to do, Ran, sorry, live with it). I hardly have anything that I would consider a reliable read and you think I picked up on some secret cop tell on Rake? Man, I must be a savant.

I have a problem with Circus not catching up or even trying to get some sort of read on people, nor does he take the opportunity to respond to me.

Does no one have a problem with this? I'm pretty sure we all had a problem with Kantrip not reading and not giving reads, this is similar. Someone talk to me about this, while I do dishes.

Briefly touched this above, but I feel the need to address this as well. I don't know about anything going on with Kantrip, but me not reading cannot be a similar situation. I replaced in on D3 of this game, which is such a ****ty situation for a replacement that some mods don't even allow replacements past D2; they just modkill. Catching up on a game this size is outside of my ability. Even if I went back to page one and started reading as much as I could, I would get bogged down in mechanic discussion and topics that no longer matter and I wouldn't retain anything meaningful. The best thing I can do for my own scum hunting is just keep up with the current goings on.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Awfully quick to point the finger. Interesting that everyone else's first reaction is "whoa what happened who did that let's figure this out" and yours is "IT WAS CIRCUS (conveniently the slot that everyone hated pre-replacement)."

I just replaced in. Ran's been up my *** about reading the first 60+ pages of the thread (which I will not be able to do, Ran, sorry, live with it). I hardly have anything that I would consider a reliable read and you think I picked up on some secret cop tell on Rake? Man, I must be a savant.

Except that you just told us that you noticed it.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Don't sit there pretending that you didn't.

 

[Circus]

Jerkus, are you okay with losng your match intentionally if asked to?

This is probably obvious from my #2980 now, but yes.