Koopa VS Kefka -- The Endless Tournament ends! Who took home the prize?

[Wots All This Then?]

You want to get high in the tournament? Get high on everyone's town list. The highest townie players are there for a reason and deserve the wins.

I get where you're coming from with this tier list idea but we don't need a list to tell us what we'll all do naturally with our reads (direct the suspicion mechanic). Putting it in a list makes it rigid and leaves room for a scum to be "official" in town's eyes and get free placement just by calling back to it and yelling down anyone who disagrees for not following the in place system until the moment the system is against them in which case they'll just flaunt it and take their chances in the match (which they'd have had to do in other matches).

I also don't really want people lying down entirely in a TvT match because I still think there's some wifom skill and character and move selection skill involved in winning matches and we'll want people who are more comfortable with the system to move up when they'll need to win 2 out of 2 winnable matches to compete in a copless environment.

 

[Kantrip]

But will everyone agree to throw a match to a townread? No.

Having this in place is like a contract of "yeah, I'll let our really town slots advance over myself." Otherwise we have room for excuses and there's no accountability.

 

[Kantrip]

Kantrip we still can remove one of them, and we gotta deal with the no cop situation.

Gonna reread and look at the OP again, but I do think the message in some way was a factor if not maybe what he posted in the thread.

Cycle 2 not cycle 1.

And the cop is how we remove the rest of the scum in cycle 2. He is necessary so I still want the clarification I asked for.

 

[Kantrip]

Without tier list (worst case)

8 man winners bracket contains 4 scum, none of them face each other in the first round. Let's say every scum always uses their "trumps all" cheat to ensure a win.

Cop checks one of the matches and catches one of the scummers cheating.

Scum vs Town
Scum vs Town
Scum vs Town
Scum vs Town

Round 2, no matter which match the cop checks, 1 scum is getting through. If the cop checks a loser's bracket match, 2 scum make it through, and there's 2 scum in loser's bracket possibly.

The cop can not be everywhere at once, we need a way to stop scum from auto-advancing with their superior cheating.

 

[pawndidater2]

What the literal ****.

 

[Kantrip]

The worst part of all that is that the scum can do that and we won't know it.

But if we make everyone agree to letting townier players through (based on common agreement of who we want in the end bracket), then we will know who is scum by who disobeys.

 

[Kantrip]

Literally the only downside is if we are wrong in our top townpicks, but that's always going to be a factor. We just need to find a group of obvtownies.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Cycle 2 not cycle 1.

And the cop is how we remove the rest of the scum in cycle 2. He is necessary so I still want the clarification I asked for.

Well he's dead now so we're going to need skill in our remainder more than ever now.

And that's the point: I don't want our choices signed in a blood contract, it gives scum something to point to when it suits them but doesn't hinder them at all if it's against them. If we all follow our collective reads as we would naturally things will work themselves out for our suspicion choices without anyone shouting about a list we made back when things may have been different.

(and I swear to god if smashboards logs me out of this hydra one more time... **** it just did again)

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Okay but like, his ability to check matches in cycle 2 is super essential to the game and if he can't do that we've already lost. Mafia can use their super cheat with no consequences and win every match.

So he has to be able to still do some things

What part of he just got shot dead is unclear?

 

[Kantrip]

What part of he just got shot dead is unclear?

The part in the rules that basically mean the game should literally be over now if the tourney cop is dead

we dont have a chance without him

 

[pawndidater2]

Yeah if he can't catch anyone then scum can just cheat their way through without worrying about anything...

 

[Kantrip]

Yeah if he can't catch anyone then scum can just cheat their way through without worrying about anything...

Exactly. The game is over if what WATT is saying is true.

Which is why I'm asking the mod

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Kantrip you don't auto win by cheating, I've won matches where my opponent cheated, we gotta just try and play around what they do and most likely mass claim characters to catch liars.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

pessimism is not a fun thing to deal with. obviously if this happened in the hame, and it did, then that means nabe has a eay of balancing it out.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

Does anyone have a problem with using our removal on Pawn? He's high on the win list and low on the reads list as well as the "can be read" list. He's been sitting at null and unhelpful for awhile now.

Also Rake said this at one point:

how about remove dat Pwn

Choo choo? The other slots I'd personally consider viable choices would be maybe Kantrip or Circus if he doesn't step up, but honestly I'm starting to feel this is our best use. I don't feel like Pawn is going to carry the game home for us if he ends up town and still in bracket when cycle 2 starts (no offense).

 

[pawndidater2]

Did you cheat as well?

 

[pawndidater2]

Damn I am about to be killed in both my games aren't I.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

also this phase isnt ending till we lay everything out, fyi. removal should also happen this phase.

 

[Wots All This Then?]

The part in the rules that basically mean the game should literally be over now if the tourney cop is dead

we dont have a chance without him

Mafia can only use their super-cheat once per paired match. It means we have to win 2 out of 2 matches in every single match against scum we play but it's still winnable with color buffs from suspicion.

 

[pawndidater2]

Mafia can only use their super-cheat once per paired match.

When was this established?

 

[Wots All This Then?]

L2P newbz

I feel like I shouldn't have to explain everything that's in the OP when we're on page 74 of this game

/ personal salt

 

[Wots All This Then?]

(Sorry but this basically just confirmed to me that I shouldn't be betting on you winning any of your matches based on mechanics if you're a townie)

 

[Wots All This Then?]

i know dat feel Dietbro

 

[Wots All This Then?]

"There is an additional method of Cheating available only to Team MAF -- using banned moves. This trumps normal Cheating, and again, both players will see an "outcome" reflecting an ordinary round. Banned moves may only be used in one round per match. Many characters do not have banned moves."

 

[Wots All This Then?]

K me and Orbo have officially enacted "**** it" protocol on analyzing our picks any further for tonight. We'll just leave this here and pick up the discussion tomorrow.

Remove: Pawndidator

 

[Circus]

Dammit, Nabe, I thought this was a gentleman's sport.

 

[Circus]

Washed/Rake from a couple pages back is interesting with hindsight.

Washed, talk about Rake's flip. Say anything.

 

[Circus]

They targeted me to see if I was the cop.

Lol

Is this the post that steadied scum's hand? Are these the words that pulled the trigger?

 

[Circus]

But if we make everyone agree to letting townier players through (based on common agreement of who we want in the end bracket), then we will know who is scum by who disobeys.

Fan of this in abstract, confused about execution. Lay it out for me. How do we determine that someone has disobeyed? How does one assertively throw a game?

Also, doesn't this only work for cycle 1? Come cycle 2, it's gladiator rules, yeah?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Suddenly, a shot rings out through the convention center!

Anomandaris_Rake is lying dead on the floor, and can no longer post in this thread, starting immediately. He was the Tourney Cop.

With 12 players left, it's still 7 votes to Bye.

Uh...what? You never mentioned Scum having this ability at all. Son of a *****.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Okay, with that shot going off I think it's really obvious to assume that no throwing occured between Gheb and Rake. Why Rake decided to do that is beyond me, but I've honestly been less inclined to remove Gheb/Circus based on just how Jerkus is handling the whole situation. I can't get over the aspect of Gheb and his stubbornness that he's shown prior, but I'm definitely on the idea of removing pawn instead.

Kantrip, talk more about your tier idea, and create a more realistic list. What is it based off of?

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Uh...what? You never mentioned Scum having this ability at all. Son of a *****.

Wait. Wait. Wait. Uhhh...this could be a town shot. I mean yeah, a really stupid one, but If I recall correctly there are more ~special~ roles around. I kinda wanna delve into this but I'd just be opening a bag of WIFOM.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Is this the post that steadied scum's hand? Are these the words that pulled the trigger?

Actually, this makes much more sense if I think about it.

 

[Kantrip]

Fan of this in abstract, confused about execution. Lay it out for me. How do we determine that someone has disobeyed? How does one assertively throw a game?

Also, doesn't this only work for cycle 1? Come cycle 2, it's gladiator rules, yeah?

We talk in thread about what moves we're using, super open like. You make sure the townier player knows what you're doing so they can beat it.

And yeah the point is that in cycle 2 you let yourself get eliminated from the tourney so townier people advance. Because our win-con is to have town win the tournament, not ourselves (sorry if I'm ruining your individual win-con but our collective one is more important).

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

laundry, you think this was related to last night?

Thinking about it.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Okay but like, his ability to check matches in cycle 2 is super essential to the game and if he can't do that we've already lost. Mafia can use their super cheat with no consequences and win every match.

So he has to be able to still do some things

no he's gone

**** me sideways

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

K me and Orbo have officially enacted "**** it" protocol on analyzing our picks any further for tonight. We'll just leave this here and pick up the discussion tomorrow.

Remove: Pawndidator

no, look at our hotel room first before we look at pawn.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Washed/Rake from a couple pages back is interesting with hindsight.

Washed, talk about Rake's flip. Say anything.

You guys wanna know the truth?

I'm taking blame for this ****. In my hotel room, I started laying out who my cop picks were at the time based on a mixture of who the cop had targeted in tandem with the information about who cheated. I had it down to Soup, Gheb, Rake, Koops, and Ruy at the start of the phase, which is why I asked Soup if he cheated. I thought, for sure, no one in that room was scum. GLG was 100% not the poisoner and would be sacked to hell if he was scum and PJB and WOTT are the towniest of townreads, so I thought it'd be safe. I was doing it because I kept having nagging doubts about Gheb's slot and as far as I knew, while I doubted it heavily, that slot still had the potential to be scum. I kept harping about Rake being checked and unfortunately I think scum either were a step ahead of me or caught on (fwiw i expected ruy or koops). I also didn't anticipate this would be the result of what would happen. I assumed he'd have his removal taken away or something would happen but instead he ****ing died and now we're up **** creek without a paddle.

****.

I do find it weird how Pawn conveniently shows up as soon as Rake dies.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

Okay, with that shot going off I think it's really obvious to assume that no throwing occured between Gheb and Rake. Why Rake decided to do that is beyond me, but I've honestly been less inclined to remove Gheb/Circus based on just how Jerkus is handling the whole situation. I can't get over the aspect of Gheb and his stubbornness that he's shown prior, but I'm definitely on the idea of removing pawn instead.

Kantrip, talk more about your tier idea, and create a more realistic list. What is it based off of?

I don't know why we're continuing to consider it because it was based on the cop removal mechanic. Saying "oh hey this ******'s scum" means little right now when our biggest stick to beat them with just got beaten.

 

[#HBC | Laundry]

ebwop: gheb's slot had potential to be the cop. as far as i knew he hadn't cheated and while i questioned his involvement, both cop's targets lined up to having common scumpicks and were both picks on gheb's list at the time.