Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[Kadano]

SDI cannot be used to transition from ground to air (“Forbidden Smash DI”) on attacks with horizontal or downward knockback.

 

[Bones0]

SDI cannot be used to transition from ground to air (“Forbidden Smash DI”).

Wow, I never knew that applied to SDI upwards. Now that you mention it, how exactly is SDI downwards into the ground forbidden? Does it not let you move your hurtbox within a certain distance of the floor? How does it determine if you are allowed to SDI downwards or not?

 

[Kadano]

So wait, you just did a moonwalk from a dash instead of from a walk/WD like most Falcos do? Does the momentum have anything to do with the ledgecancelled aerials? Would you have had a lot of backward momentum if you didn't reach the edge of the platform first?

Sorry for not replying until now; somebody at the German Smash Boards asked the same questions and I got confused.
A simple standalone moonwalk always ends with a backwards momentum fall if spaced correctly (at least for Marth and Falco). Wavedash and walk, however, can only transition into backwards fall if an opponent is standing so close to you that their ECB pushes you off when Turn is queried.
Wavedash through an enemy → hold backwards → aerial on fall → platform cancel is pretty easy with both Falco and Marth, but getting the edgecancel is very hard. You need to hold away again when hitlag ends, and you need to use different control stick x values during these frames most of the time.

Wow, I never knew that applied to SDI upwards. Now that you mention it, how exactly is SDI downwards into the ground forbidden? Does it not let you move your hurtbox within a certain distance of the floor? How does it determine if you are allowed to SDI downwards or not?

The projected ECB does leave the ground on SDI up / move below the ground on SDI down, but it’s corrected to ground height. I guess the game runs an internal query whether the character is grounded and accordingly prevents downwards SDI. Upward SDI is only prevented if the victim is grounded and the colliding hitbox has a knockback angle of [180,0]°.

 

[Sashimi]

SDI cannot be used to transition from ground to air (“Forbidden Smash DI”) on attacks with horizontal or downward knockback.

Thanks!

There seem to be a lot of general/non-Marth questions here. If I ever have any questions related to Yoshi, would it be okay to ask them in this thread?

(Things like that image of powershielding Falco's lasers in the OP, and frame-perfect stuff that I can't test - just want to make sure it's okay before I ask)

 

[Kadano]

You're better off asking in the general "Ask anyone about frame stuff" thread. It's on my watch list too.

 

[Bones0]

Is there any merit to pivoting into a jump to pivothog more easily? Normally you have to pivot the frame before you fall off, but if you jump that would mean you have a 5-frame window with Marth (but idk if you can maintain enough momentum to still fall off by the time you reach the last frame of jumpsquat so maybe it's less).

 

[Kadano]

Is there any merit to pivoting into a jump to pivothog more easily? Normally you have to pivot the frame before you fall off, but if you jump that would mean you have a 5-frame window with Marth (but idk if you can maintain enough momentum to still fall off by the time you reach the last frame of jumpsquat so maybe it's less).

Jumping doesn’t carry any horizontal acceleration and has the same traction as the Turn (“pivot”) animation, so there is no difference between sliding in Turn and sliding in Kneebend.

 

[Bones0]

Jumping doesn’t carry any horizontal acceleration and has the same traction as the Turn (“pivot”) animation, so there is no difference between sliding in Turn and sliding in Kneebend.

Yeah, but wouldn't the extra jumpsquat frames give your momentum more time to carry you off the edge? Like with Falco, I shinehog by doing a shine turnaround and then sliding off in jumpsquat. I figured that could work the same with a pivot instead of a shine turnaround so I don't have to be as precise with my dash spacing relative to the edge.

 

[Kadano]

Those are two different things. Turn can edge cancel by itself, shine cannot.
Maybe I should have clarified in my last post that I ran a few tests and can confirm that there is no merit to interrupting Turn with Kneebend.

 

[Bones0]

Those are two different things. Turn can edge cancel by itself, shine cannot.
Maybe I should have clarified in my last post that I ran a few tests and can confirm that there is no merit to interrupting Turn with Kneebend.

Well I feel like if I don't get the pivot perfectly, I begin dashing. I was hoping jumping would make it easier to pivot because I wouldn't have to release the stick to neutral.

 

[1MachGO]

Hey Kadano, can you make a gif of the farthest dash>immediate pivot fsmash? I'm curious about how far it reaches.

 

[Kadano]

Well I feel like if I don't get the pivot perfectly, I begin dashing. I was hoping jumping would make it easier to pivot because I wouldn't have to release the stick to neutral.

Well I feel like if I don't get the pivot perfectly, I begin dashing. I was hoping jumping would make it easier to pivot because I wouldn't have to release the stick to neutral.

Ah, didn't get that this was your intention. It does work like you assumed.

Hey Kadano, can you make a gif of the farthest dash>immediate pivot fsmash? I'm curious about how far it reaches.

"Farthest dash" is not decisive. It can either mean holding strong forward for 15 frames (holding longer would prompt Run) and then pivot fsmash or instead hold weak forward for another 12 frames before the pivot fsmash. Both are outright beaten by wd fsmash and run-cancel fsmash, respectively.
Which one do you want a gif of?

 

[1MachGO]

"Farthest dash" is not decisive. It can either mean holding strong forward for 15 frames (holding longer would prompt Run) and then pivot fsmash or instead hold weak forward for another 12 frames before the pivot fsmash. Both are outright beaten by ad fsmash and run-cancel fsmash, respectively.
Which one do you want a gif of?

Hm, when you say beaten do you mean beaten in speed or beaten in range?

And could I have a gif of the first one? (dash for 15 frames>dash back>immediate pivot fsmash)

 

[knightpraetor]

so, does marth have an actual uptilt combo on sheik off of a low percent upthrow (15% was it?) on away DI? considering PP got an entire stock off of it i would like to know if it's guaranteed. I have hit that sequence before myself as well. but i've also dropped it a lot. Don't know whether i should just go for it or not

 

[Kadano]

Hm, when you say beaten do you mean beaten in speed or beaten in range?

And could I have a gif of the first one? (dash for 15 frames>dash back>immediate pivot fsmash)

In range. And speed if speed is understood as movement speed (Δx/Δt). If you refer to “speed” in the sense of startup lag, pivot is faster because wd has a minimum duration of 14 frames (more if you dash for at least 1 frame to move during Kneebend so that you maximize the former interpretation of speed) , while pivot has only 5 (Dash 4 + Turn 1).

20ms (83% playback speed, as close to real time as the gif standard allows):

80ms (20% playback speed):

Sorry it took me so long to fulfill your request; I’ve been trying to create a combination gif that compares the reach of pivot, wd and dwd fsmash over time, but as I need to get into ImageMagick or AviSynth scripts to do that properly without a ridiculous amount of effort, it will take some time until I’m finished. So this will have to do for now.

so, does marth have an actual uptilt combo on sheik off of a low percent upthrow (15% was it?) on away DI? considering PP got an entire stock off of it i would like to know if it's guaranteed. I have hit that sequence before myself as well. but i've also dropped it a lot. Don't know whether i should just go for it or not

http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...-data-application.337035/page-8#post-16084304
As I give a frame window of 1-2 for Sheik’s escape jump in that percentage range regardless of DI, it’s not a true combo. I just tested for your specific scenario (15%, DI away), and it’s a 1 frame window for her.
Thus, it would have been possible for him to escape if he had frame perfection.

 

[1MachGO]

Don't worry about it! And thank you, this helps a lot.

Also, after seeing aMSa's Yoshi at Apex, I've been wondering about Marth's jab reset options. Do you have any theories about this? How reliable/unreliable is jab? Is there any potential for the weakest hitboxes on other moves such as dtilt or even the first hit of nair?

One set up I was wondering about specifically is using the first hit of nair to punish players who SDI a fair into the ground. To elaborate:
>Marth SH Fairs an opponent
>The opponent was holding down and SDI's into the ground; resulting in a knockdown (obviously at a high enough percent where they couldn't CC)
>Marth follows up fair with the first hit of nair right before landing
>jab reset?

Is there enough time/low enough amount of knockback for this to cause a reset?

 

[Kadano]

Jab resets are overrated imho. SDI always escapes them and they still have multiple getup options.
I think it's better to do a falling uair after the rising sh fair. It will always tipper and break additional ccs in many cases.
The best way to treat enemies in knockdown is to stand in front of them and react to their choice accordingly. There are some exceptions where grab doesn't come out in time, but I'm inclined to say all of them still have a good counter. For example run-cancel dsmash against Falco's back roll away from you.

 

[Bones0]

I think side-B might reset if it's stale or something, but the only reliable resets are jab and first hit of nair. You can do a super early AC nair (within 1-2 frames of perfect, but it is really easy) and hit people on the ground with it; maybe only during their bounce or something though, not sure. I agree with Kadano though, jab resets are overrated. They can make things easier because most people don't SDI and it forces their getup options so you don't have to worry about timing mixups, but you should be able to react to all of the options anyway. In some scenarios where they can still roll out of GUA, the only option you eliminate is GUA. If I see mess up my CG and someone misses the tech, I'll definitely take the jab reset until they prove themselves capable of SDIing out, but I don't think resets are something you should actively look for if for no other reason than most good players don't miss techs very often.

 

[Kadano]

Here is a comparison of Marth’s fsmash movement options. From top to bottom: pivot fsmash (65 frames), wd fsmash (63 frames), dwd fsmash (64 frames), dwdss fsmash (65 frames, see my next post). I added Wait animation frames so that all gifs have the same length and don’t desync.

 

[1MachGO]

Great post Kadano. Did you use the small step forward smash for any of these or are they all maximum range?

Also, out of curiosity, are there any nuances to how momentum is transferred to attacks? Do certain attacks carry less or even stop prior momentum? I imagine that dtilt travels with less momentum as a result of requiring a downward input; can dsmash circumvent a problem like this if the input is performed with c-stick?

 

[Mr. Bean]

Man if only i could perfect my pivot fsmashes. that's the only pivoting trick i am having a hard time doing.

 

[Bones0]

I want to use rising SH uairs, but it's hard to tell how low it goes. Is there a significant difference between uairing on the first airborne frame vs. the second+?

 

[Kadano]

Great post Kadano. Did you use the small step forward smash for any of these or are they all maximum range?

Small step fsmash was not used in any of these. For pivot fsmashes, small stepping is not possible and for wavedash fsmashes, small stepping eliminates the sliding momentum and thus decreases the hitbox reach. In all three scenarios, maximum horizontal movement per frame was the goal, so small step would not have contributed to that.
Not sliding afterwards can be useful, though – if your fsmash is shielded, you will be much farther away from your opponent so he will have a hard time punishing you.
Here is an example gif, I will include it in the previous post as well:

Also, out of curiosity, are there any nuances to how momentum is transferred to attacks? Do certain attacks carry less or even stop prior momentum? I imagine that dtilt travels with less momentum as a result of requiring a downward input; can dsmash circumvent a problem like this if the input is performed with c-stick?

Unless the attack has innate momentum modifiers (for Marth, all special moves), attacks don’t change your movement from what it would have been like if you hadn’t done an attack. If you intercept an animation with innate movement – Dash, most notably – there is a difference, though.

 

[Kadano]

I want to use rising SH uairs, but it's hard to tell how low it goes. Is there a significant difference between uairing on the first airborne frame vs. the second+?

 

[Bones0]

Sorry, I guess I should have clarified that I'm trying to get the lowest hitbox possible to pick people up off the ground. Could you do the same thing but with pics of the initial hitboxes (maybe put another Marth next to the hitbox as a reference)? :D

 

[Kadano]

In some scenarios where they can still roll out of GUA, the only option you eliminate is GUA.

Get-up attack is possible even if you are jab-reset. Your A or B button input needs to be within a 4-frame window, though, so it’s much harder than forcing a knockdown-roll on a jab reset.

Sorry, I guess I should have clarified that I'm trying to get the lowest hitbox possible to pick people up off the ground. Could you do the same thing but with pics of the initial hitboxes (maybe put another Marth next to the hitbox as a reference)? :D

 

[Bones0]

Get-up attack is possible even if you are jab-reset. Your A or B button input needs to be within a 4-frame window, though, so it’s much harder than forcing a knockdown-roll on a jab reset.

Yeah, I knew GUA was sometimes possible, but I thought it was pretty rare, at least for spacies. I saw some Magus post about it. Honestly, a 4-frame window isn't too bad if you can spam A, B, and Z.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i dont know where to look for this, so can someone link me to that post that tells you how to use marth cg on fox to up-tilts to kills perfectly. it had it based on %'s and told you step by step what to do

 

[Bones0]

i dont know where to look for this, so can someone link me to that post that tells you how to use marth cg on fox to up-tilts to kills perfectly. it had it based on %'s and told you step by step what to do

I think "Beat!" posted it. Search through his posts in the Dr. Peepee thread.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

I think "Beat!" posted it. Search through his posts in the Dr. Peepee thread.

thanks, I will look for it

 

[Beat!]

I posted it in my matchup guide compilation thread as well: http://smashboards.com/threads/compilation-of-matchup-guides.341532/

 

[SAUS]

I noticed with marth that there is this weird thing where he starts an attack, but doesn't follow through with it. When it happens, he basically does the regular attack animation, but as soon as the hit boxes would come out, he does a weird, slow-motion swing that doesn't leave the blueish trail behind it, and there are no hitboxes. I've only noticed it with his up-tilt, dash attack, and jab (not 100% sure on the jab though). I was wondering what causes this.

I am looking into safe options against a crouching shiek while she is at 0% (or slightly higher) damage. Grab seems to miss, and pretty much all my attacks get crouch cancelled into a tilt or grab.

 

[1MachGO]

I am looking into safe options against a crouching shiek while she is at 0% (or slightly higher) damage. Grab seems to miss, and pretty much all my attacks get crouch cancelled into a tilt or grab.

Not sure how good it is at 0%, but spaced dtilt should be hard to punish if you dash away immediately.

 

[Bones0]

I noticed with marth that there is this weird thing where he starts an attack, but doesn't follow through with it. When it happens, he basically does the regular attack animation, but as soon as the hit boxes would come out, he does a weird, slow-motion swing that doesn't leave the blueish trail behind it, and there are no hitboxes. I've only noticed it with his up-tilt, dash attack, and jab (not 100% sure on the jab though). I was wondering what causes this.

I am looking into safe options against a crouching shiek while she is at 0% (or slightly higher) damage. Grab seems to miss, and pretty much all my attacks get crouch cancelled into a tilt or grab.

Sounds like the Dream Land wind glitch, but idk what the specifics of it are.

Dash grab should reach her crouch (check the hitbox thread so you know where to aim). You can probably also get away with late tipped fair dashback. If you can get behind her, you can also just run up and shield. Good DDing will actually cause most people to CCC preemptively, so try baiting that as well.

 

[SAUS]

Sounds like the Dream Land wind glitch, but idk what the specifics of it are.

Dash grab should reach her crouch (check the hitbox thread so you know where to aim). You can probably also get away with late tipped fair dashback. If you can get behind her, you can also just run up and shield. Good DDing will actually cause most people to CCC preemptively, so try baiting that as well.

Hmmm I am not 100% sure, but it did seem to happen on dreamland and not any other stage. I didn't consider that it could be stage related. Gonna google around a bit.

Also, thanks for the tips I was thinking that maybe the dash grab would work, but I have yet to test it.

EDIT
Googled:
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Dream_Land
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBpHylGW00s

Totally related to the tree on dreamland. That is the weirdest bug ever lol

 

[hectohertz]

hey kadano, remember when we were doing that sheik stuff and you were having trouble getting the wd->turn to grab the ledge. would you consider doing a video/writeup of why that's difficult, what the inputs are exactly, etc.

if you're down, i'm curious to compare the speed sheik can get to the ledge out of a full run. the options i'd be curious to see compared are: wd->turn, wd->turn->wd (easier to do, clearly slower, but by how much?), run off needle-turnaround edgehog, run off dj needle turnaround edgehog, jump turnaround needle FF.

but mostly curious about the speed of wd->turn vs. wd->turn->wd

 

[Kadano]

hey kadano, remember when we were doing that sheik stuff and you were having trouble getting the wd->turn to grab the ledge. would you consider doing a video/writeup of why that's difficult, what the inputs are exactly, etc.

Of course I remember. I just figured out how you can get “true” turns:
While Sheik can start holding backwards as early during her wavedash as on the first frame of LandingFallSpeclal to turn around afterwards, doing so will delay the turning point from Turn 1 to Turn 5. The earliest frame during your wavedash you may start holding backwards on and still turn around immediately is frame 9 of LandingFallSpecial. Interestingly, while weak forward inputs also trigger the Turn animation, doing so will delay the turning point to Turn 5 as well. Thus I assume that only dash inputs register the turn immediately.
This probably applies for all characters, not only Sheik (I just tested Marth and it’s exactly the same for him, except that his traction is lower which makes it easier for him to start the wavedash sufficiently far away from the ledge to slide off after Turn 5).

The perspective of the above paragraph is very mechanic-based and not competitively minded, so let me state it differently so you can make sense out of it.
If you stand near the ledge facing towards it and want to grab it as quickly as possible, these are your options:
1. Pivot edgehog: insanely hard to do consistently but the fastest if you stand very close to the ledge. I explained this in detail a few weeks ago, suffice to say it’s too hard to be considered in a real match.
2. Wavedash turn edgehog: faster than pivot edgehog if you stand a bit farther away from the ledge. Can also be done straight out of Run. If it takes less than 5 frames to slide off the stage after the wavedash, you can only turn around by pressing backwards strong enough to trigger a dash if you kept pressing for more than one frame. So for this technique to work, you need to either choose your wavedash angle depending on the distance to the ledge so that you slide for at least another 5 frames after the wavedash or be able to make very precise single-frame dash inputs.
3. Turn wavedash edgehog: Inferior to 2. in two ways: it’s one frame slower and cannot be done out of Run.

All other edgehog options that are available to Sheik are at least 50% slower, so I won’t include them here.

To answer your question about wd→turn vs. wd→turn→wd: If executed perfectly, the latter is [jumpsquat/Kneebend length]+1 frames slower. In Sheik’s case, that’s 4 frames.

Edit: I updated the ssbwiki article on turns. I should cover everything there is to it now and is much more accessible than this post, which is way too offtopic to be included in the OP anyway. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Turn#Normal_turn

 

[hectohertz]

kadano <3 <3 <3 i love you so much

you are the best

let me know next time you are doing a stream! i will watch for sure! and would sub too

 

[hectohertz]

Of course I remember. I just figured out how you can get “true” turns:

2. Wavedash turn edgehog: faster than pivot edgehog if you stand a bit farther away from the ledge. Can also be done straight out of Run. If it takes less than 5 frames to slide off the stage after the wavedash, you can only turn around by pressing backwards strong enough to trigger a dash if you kept pressing for more than one frame. So for this technique to work, you need to either choose your wavedash angle depending on the distance to the ledge so that you slide for at least another 5 frames after the wavedash or be able to make very precise single-frame dash inputs.

just to clarify, when you say "after the wavedash" do you mean after LandingFallSpecial has ended?

and if im undestanding correctly:
if you WD so that you will go off the ledge 5 frames or more after you come out of LandingSpecialFall, you can hold back during LandingSpecialFall and you will get the edgehog

if you WD so that you would go off the ledge sooner, you need to smash the stick the opposite direction for one frame, and you must do that in LandingSpecialFall9 or greater

 

[Bones0]

I knew I had seen my turnaround interrupted by sliding off stage. I thought I was crazy because I occasionally mess up wavedash turn edgehogs but could see the animation.