Data Kadano's perfect Marth class -- advanced frame data application

[Bones0]

I didn't think the angle would affect the stun, but I thought meteor smashes had extra stun vs. grounded opponents which was why Falcon's stomp, Doc's usmash, Mario's fair, etc. seem to have so much hangtime. Is it just spikes in general that have extra stun, or is stun just a general trait directly based off of KB and spikes tend to have high KB?

 

[1MachGO]

^I wish I could find the exact post, but I remember SB saying that ground bounces caused by spikes and meteors have 20% reduced knockback but with unchanged hitstun. Since hitstun and knockback are typically connected values, a ground bounce will have disproportionately high hitstun for its knockback. The difference between meteors and spikes are that spikes are angled which makes them easy to DI and thus harder to follow up on and seemingly have "less hang time"

 

[Kadano]

Like I wrote on the last page, hitstun is knockback*0.4. This calculation is made before the floor collision knockback reduction is applied, so all attacks with downward trajectory that launch the opponent will have higher hitstun than an attack that launches with the same direction and speed without floor collision.
Another difference is that below approximately 100% damage, bounces will always trigger the DamageFlyN hitstun animation, whereas similarly launching no-bounce attacks would trigger the DamageFlyTop hitstun animation. DamageFlyN has this weird property I sort-of-explained a few days ago where frame 29 will be repeated again and again until the calculated hitstun is reached, and during the later half or so of them, jumps (and maybe other options available after the hitstun?) can be buffered.
So, while bounces in general have more hitstun, they also make it easier for the victim to jump out as soon as possible.

 

[Bones0]

Thanks guys, that makes sense of everything for me.

 

[SAUS]

Kadano, do you know if Link has a perfect Hax dash (as in he cannot be hit during the whole thing)? Thanks.

Also, that hit stun stuff is awesome. I always felt like the hit stun in the game was very natural, and you could kind of tell how long someone will be stunned based on how hard they got hit.

 

[Bones0]

Kadano, do you know if Link has a perfect Hax dash (as in he cannot be hit during the whole thing)? Thanks.

Also, that hit stun stuff is awesome. I always felt like the hit stun in the game was very natural, and you could kind of tell how long someone will be stunned based on how hard they got hit.

Yes, Link can reverse ledgedash with full invincibility.

http://smashboards.com/threads/new-kind-of-ledge-stall-that-most-characters-can-do.336751/

 

[Kadano]

Yes, Link can ledgedashstall with continuous intangibility. Magus420 2008 post | Wiki article I might update for more characters in the future.

Also, I want to get started with the video guide project now, so I might not answer your questions immediately if I feel I can explain them better in a video.

 

[Bones0]

Off topic, but this needs explaining.

 

[dRevan64]

Off topic, but this needs explaining.

Every time I think I understand this game's engine something else happens.

 

[Kadano]

Off topic, but this needs explaining.

Bob-ombs always bounce off when they collide with a wall or ceiling. Only ground collision makes them explode immediately.

 

[Purpletuce]

Damn, it sounds so obvious now. . . You'd think I'd've noticed that before.

 

[dRevan64]

Yeah, that REALLY sounds like something I would've known after playing this game for 12 years.

 

[MookieRah]

We probably all assumed it worked like Link's bombs. I mean we don't really play with items so we don't assume that bomb-ombs would have a different behavior.

 

[Bones0]

I think I discovered something new. When you are in a full run, if you angle the stick downwards at a 45 degree angle, you run more slowly. I have to believe this was actually designed into the game because the "jog" animation actually looks slower (if you test it with Falcon, you can see his arms moving back and forth at a slower pace). I also have a feeling this might contribute to moonwalks somehow since the way people always explain how to do the furthest moonwalks is to angle the stick down and forward at the beginning.

Your ground speed affects your aerial speed so if you wanted to jump off stage to edgeguard an opponent without going too far, you could jog instead of run.

Angling upwards (not enough to tap jump obviously) also triggers a jog.

 

[Vale]

It isn't new, but I've never seen anyone talk about it before. I had done it a long time ago with some friends before I got into the competitive scene, but never thought it would be useful for anything (granted, I didn't see a reason to do slow/fast walking over a dash either nor was I aware of any advanced techniques). Good point with edgeguarding, though. You can transition between running and jogging, so it may have a limited use with timing approaches.

 

[Kadano]

(It’s so great to have automatic draft saving. My Opera 11 just crashed again when I tried to open Facebook, and while the post wasn’t lengthy at all, it’s still nice to have this kind of safety net. So shoutouts to AlphaZealot and his team, on the off chance they are reading this.)

I think I discovered something new. When you are in a full run, if you angle the stick downwards at a 45 degree angle, you run more slowly.

I used this input in the video at the bottom of the original post in this thread. Stickywalking usually incorporates this “technique”, though it really isn’t more than Dash and Run Δx and animation speed depending on the current x value on the control stick. You can achieve the same slow run speed by holding the control stick at [178,128]. It‘s significantly more reliable to hold 315°, though; even on my modded controller that has a slight downwards control stick shift for easier pivot dtilts and moonwalks holding 315° still triggers Run and not RunBrake.

I also have a feeling this might contribute to moonwalks somehow since the way people always explain how to do the furthest moonwalks is to angle the stick down and forward at the beginning.

The reason for this recommendation is more that “slow” type moonwalks (“fast” moonwalks are done by moving from strong forward to strong backwards after frame 1 or 2 of your dash and cannot be done out of Turn and thus out of dashdance) can be done more quickly by moving a straight line from down-forward to down-backward than by moving a half circle.

Your ground speed affects your aerial speed so if you wanted to jump off stage to edgeguard an opponent without going too far, you could jog instead of run.

Interesting idea, I played around a little bit and found that pseudo-moonwalks work even better towards that goal. It’s necessary to know approximately where you need to stand, but it’s much easier than pivot edgehog. It might be really useful for edgeguarding spacies that up-B close to the wall so that you risk getting burned if you just run down without manipulating your air speed.
This, and lots of other things that came up in the last few pages, can be explained much better in a video than in text with a few gifs, though. I think I’ll stop making gifs and work out details for the video project with you instead, I feel it could be a great solution for the knowledge need.

 

[Bones0]

Interesting idea, I played around a little bit and found that pseudo-moonwalks work even better towards that goal. It’s necessary to know approximately where you need to stand, but it’s much easier than pivot edgehog. It might be really useful for edgeguarding spacies that up-B close to the wall so that you risk getting burned if you just run down without manipulating your air speed.
This, and lots of other things that came up in the last few pages, can be explained much better in a video than in text with a few gifs, though. I think I’ll stop making gifs and work out details for the video project with you instead, I feel it could be a great solution for the knowledge need.

What do you mean by pseudo-moonwalks?

 

[MookieRah]

(It’s so great to have automatic draft saving. My Opera 11 just crashed again when I tried to open Facebook, and while the post wasn’t lengthy at all, it’s still nice to have this kind of safety net. So shoutouts to AlphaZealot and his team, on the off chance they are reading this.)

Agreed. I often had to copy my posts (or write them entirely in) notepad because my son keeps finding ways to get into trouble. It's great that I can just stop when I have to and know that it has been saved. Also, there have been many times were something crashed or I accidentally refreshed the page or something and lost HUUUUGE posts in the past. I'm really digging the feature to say the least.

I'm also digging the videos idea. I love the your gifs and images, but videos are even better.

Anyways, considering all the talk about moonwalking, is this beginning to be important enough to master? I've been putting it off in light of mastering other things I feel are more important, but it is seemingly becoming more and more legit.

 

[Kadano]

What do you mean by pseudo-moonwalks?

When Marth does an actual moonwalk, but doesn’t make use of dash acceleration reduction by wavedashing backwards, walking or foxtrotting. He never seems to move backwards, but at the very end of his dash, he can fall off the edge with negative momentum. I really feel the urge to make a gif of it, but I won’t do it to keep the motivation for explaining it in a video.

Anyways, considering all the talk about moonwalking, is this beginning to be important enough to master? I've been putting it off in light of mastering other things I feel are more important, but it is seemingly becoming more and more legit.

I do feel moonwalks are kind of underrated by many players. It’s much more feasible to do bairs that reach out very far for edgeguarding by doing a moonwalk than by doing a backwards wavedash before jumping. This is more true for other characters that cannot do the M2K turnaround with bair, but even for Marth it might be superior in some situations where you need to do the “true” bair earlier than possible with the M2K turnaround. Plus the aforementioned negative Δx fall off for edgeguarding, which might make the old “fsmash / dtilt / counter standing on the edge and hope the spacey misses his Firefurry sweetspot or his walltech side-B” obsolete.

Edit: Now I imagine the future Fox-Marth limited-time-for-getting-there edgeguarding game consisting of Marth moonwalk-falling off the stage and guessing whether Fox will press R now and SDI the expected fair towards the wall or wait for Marth jumping back to the stage with a dair / Shieldbreaker and attempt to tech and SDI then. I haven’t done the testing whether one tech input would cover both options, but I’m fairly sure this would be a balanced micro-game.

 

[Bones0]

A pic/gif showing the highest float height you can hit with the back of nair would be nifty. I'd really like to just get amazing at Marth vs. Peach. Playing the matchup with Falco is just impossible to not **** up and die instantly, especially the way I play. >________>

 

[Kadano]

I’d rather go for bair, though:

 

[MookieRah]

I think max bair usage is also good in the Marth matchup, but perhaps that is a bit sub-optimal at times.

Speaking of Marth dittos, does fthrow > pivot tipper fsmash work at low percents if you throw the Marth off the stage? If not on normal stages, would it work on Yoshi's?

 

[Bones0]

Sorry, I meant SH AC nair. I'm theorycrafting about WDing into Peach backwards with it. Bair seems a little too hit or miss and laggy enough to get punished if I do whiff. Maybe I will mess with SH AC bair too though.

 

[Mahie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=UkdOHh3D5sY&t=425

Is this what you mean with pseudo moonwalking or are you talking about something else Kadano?

 

[Kadano]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=UkdOHh3D5sY&t=425

Is this what you mean with pseudo moonwalking or are you talking about something else Kadano?

No, that’s something different. You had negative momentum here; what I call “pseudo moonwalk” (although it’s technically the most pure moonwalk) is not having any Δx momentum at all and then doing a dash and holding backwards from frame 2 on.

I’ll explain this with TAS examples in my videos with lots of details and explanations later.

Edit: After messing around with it a bit, I think its usefulness is very limited anyway.

 

[Mahie]

Well when I do that usually, I don't get any momentum at all, maybe the video example isn't that good.

I wavedash forward to initiate it most of the time, then dash in the opposite direction with some sort of timing.

It results in Marth dashing the opposite direction, but in animation only. He remains on the same spot, at least as far as I can tell.

 

[Purpletuce]

I've never been able to get Marth to move backwards at all with his moonwalk, although it might be because I usually get momentum in the direction I want to move with a wavedash (like Mahie). . . does starting with a wavedash instead of walking make a big difference in moonwalk distancele?

I've definitely read and seen a video about angling the joystick to run more slowly. Oh, you silly guy, Bones. . . .

 

[dRevan64]

I've never been able to get Marth to move backwards at all with his moonwalk, although it might be because I usually get momentum in the direction I want to move with a wavedash (like Mahie). . . does starting with a wavedash instead of walking make a big difference in moonwalk distancele?

I don't know if it makes a difference, but you can moonwalk out of either one. I find it takes longer to get to a walk speed where you can get a noticeable moonwalk than to just wavedash, so I usually do the latter–with marth. With fox I think it's easier to just walk.

 

[Mahie]

You moonwalk further if you're at maximum speed first, so usually with most characters it's WD Forward, hold forward to walk at max speed, then moonwalk.

But for the thing I was talking about, I don't actually imput a moonwalk, just a dash in the opposite direction, not the full half circle.

 

[Bones0]

That's just dashing against your WD momentum. I don't think there's anything weird going on. It's just like running when you got knocked away and start sliding or Fox/Falco side-Bing against momentum after they slide off.

 

[MookieRah]

I do feel moonwalks are kind of underrated by many players. It’s much more feasible to do bairs that reach out very far for edgeguarding by doing a moonwalk than by doing a backwards wavedash before jumping. This is more true for other characters that cannot do the M2K turnaround with bair, but even for Marth it might be superior in some situations where you need to do the “true” bair earlier than possible with the M2K turnaround. Plus the aforementioned negative Δx fall off for edgeguarding, which might make the old “fsmash / dtilt / counter standing on the edge and hope the spacey misses his Firefurry sweetspot or his walltech side-B” obsolete.

Re-read this again and realised this M2K turnaround bit. What is this exactly?

 

[Bones0]

Re-read this again and realised this M2K turnaround bit. What is this exactly?

He's talking about M2K's habit of jumping towards the ledge and bairing to turn around and grab it.

 

[dRevan64]

He's talking about M2K's habit of jumping towards the ledge and bairing to turn around and grab it.

I don't think that's what he means, I think he was talking about doing a fullhop bair turnaround and using the momentum of that to reach for another bair or a dair or something.

 

[Kadano]

Re-read this again and realised this M2K turnaround bit. What is this exactly?

It’s when you dash towards the edge and do a fulljump bair to turn around followed by a rejump bair to hit the opponent. You can hold forward the entire time, so it’s possible to reach out as far as possible with it. I assumed everyone would know what I meant from the name I gave it as M2K does it so often.

 

[Bones0]

I don't think that's what he means, I think he was talking about doing a fullhop bair turnaround and using the momentum of that to reach for another bair or a dair or something.

Yeah, I know. I specifically mentioned doing it to grab the ledge since that's probably the most iconic use for it.

 

[MookieRah]

I assumed everyone would know what I meant from the name I gave it as M2K does it so often.

Ah, well I just didn't think about it that much then cause I do recall him doing that all the time. I should work on mastering that. Sounds like one of those small nuances that make a big difference.

 

[Kadano]

Here is an example of Falco abusing what I called pseudo-moonwalks earlier that I did for someone on the German Smash Boards and felt like sharing here:

The inputs for this moonwalk as well as the platform-edgecancels afterwards are ridiculously hard, though. You sometimes need to change the control stick input by 50° and back again within two frames (for both inputs – zero leniency). So the day somebody is able to do this will probably never come. I hope it still gives you an idea what this moonwalk does in general, or at least entertains you.
I think a very similar scene was shown in the “Marth vs. Sheik” TAS video, but in this gif Falco doesn’t rely on helpful SDI by your opponent.

 

[dRevan64]

this game is ****ing absurd

 

[Bones0]

So wait, you just did a moonwalk from a dash instead of from a walk/WD like most Falcos do? Does the momentum have anything to do with the ledgecancelled aerials? Would you have had a lot of backward momentum if you didn't reach the edge of the platform first?

 

[Sashimi]

This thread is amazing.

I have a question regarding SDI, though I apologize if it's been answered already (couldn't find it). Is it possible to SDI shine so that you leave the ground as it hits you, then land? I read elsewhere that you can do this with Dair > Shine, but what about just the shine?